Need animator opinions

[Xcyper33]

This is my 1st attempt at frame by frame animation. I've been really trying get a 'smooth' ish animation kind of like Samurai Champloo. More realistic moves rather than DBZ-esque fighting. Do you think this animation is accurate to Samurai Champloo style?

http://spamtheweb.com/ul/upload/290110/1 2124_test_animations_Scene_17.php

[JoSilver]

well the animation is very smooth my friend!

Nicely done!

[Xcyper33]

At 1/29/10 03:41 AM, JoSilver wrote: well the animation is very smooth my friend!

Nicely done!

Thank you! Here, I'll put it on the dumping grounds if no one wants to go to another site: http://www.newgrounds.com/dump/item/0331 d8207ecc2d42b4f2cf27fc96f11d

[Xcyper33]

Looking for more input please. Any suggestions? Criticisms?

[Coaly]

Pretty nice outlines. Looks like you have some shrinkage problems, as in the lengths of some of the limbs and such change during the movement, and I mean in ways that look unnatural. The movements are pretty good, it's hard to give much advice on that part because it goes so fast, try uploading a slower framerate so we can get a better view of each frame.

Doing some full body outlines would give people more to comment on too.

[JKAmovies]

So far, it looks very well done. But as Caoly said above, it's hard to pick out problems because it goes quite fast, but I don't see the point in slowing it down because no one is gunna view it at that speed when you finish it anyway.

I'd like to see some character outline work though, that may make it easier to determine what is needed to be fixed.

[Xcyper33]

At 1/30/10 01:28 AM, Coaly wrote: Pretty nice outlines. Looks like you have some shrinkage problems, as in the lengths of some of the limbs and such change during the movement, and I mean in ways that look unnatural. The movements are pretty good, it's hard to give much advice on that part because it goes so fast, try uploading a slower framerate so we can get a better view of each frame.

Doing some full body outlines would give people more to comment on too.

Thanks for the criticism guys. Coaly, is there anyway to deal with the shrinkage problem? Are there any techniques or references people make to keep their characters scaled besides onion skin?

[JKAmovies]

At 1/30/10 07:39 AM, Xcyper33 wrote: Are there any techniques or references people make to keep their characters scaled besides onion skin?

You could try placing a line above and below the standing or original starting idle position and keep that visible so when your character(s) stand again, they can stay that original height. That would probably work for height problems, but not for width change or arm movements.

Just keep a close eye on for how large you started and compare it as you go???

[PBass]

Are there any techniques or references people make to keep their characters scaled besides onion skin?

I think the best way to keep your proportions correctly is to animate pose to pose. Instead of animating frame 1, then frame 2, and so on pick out the key poses that your character is going to be doing and then animate the inbetween frames. Also, make sure your poses have clear silhouettes and will show the action nicely.

[Ani-x]

well its hard to see just by your stick proportion, But you do have a nice flow.
I would snuggest ditching the circles and lines and use more limb's weight. (draw like wooden dummys, not sticks)

We once did a samurai champloo animation for a collab (was more my pro then me)
But look at my profile and see the Anime Collab.

I don't have the FLA here, but if i can get it, I will gladly pass it on to you, to show you some of the early versions of it that had the fleshed out animations with out the lines and color to give you a example.

if you like that style of "Anime" (more close to our style also)
I suggest you looking into some of Satoshi Kon's work. And also just studding the production art and model sheets of the studio who did samurai chamloo (thats what we did)

The Art of Samurai Champloo

[Xcyper33]

Thanks Ani-X I'm more interested in the way they fight more so how they look. I plan to incorprate my own drawing style mixed with the fighting style of Sam Champloo.

[Ani-x]

At 1/30/10 11:38 AM, Xcyper33 wrote: Thanks Ani-X I'm more interested in the way they fight more so how they look. I plan to incorprate my own drawing style mixed with the fighting style of Sam Champloo.

Yeah, I didn't mean so much as the look, but the art was a insight to the movement.
(you see the angles, pans, focuses and so on)

also dunno if this helps, But it is said when they animated it, They listened to a lot of Hip Hop.
Using the rhythm of break dancing, the moves and tempo.
the fight scenes (besides the angles used) had a more of a rhythm to a 4:4 rather then just a "action sequence"

Just food for thought.

also note that animating to a rhythm is a very common thing.( i dunno a animator who doesn't)
that is why when you are in a studio you see a lot of animators humming, tapping there foot or pencil

[Xcyper33]

Awesome, definately. One of the reasons why I love Samurai Champloo is because of the Hip Hop style to it. I wish I can see the way they positioned the cutscenes through skeletons similar to what I'm doing.

[Ani-x]

that woudl be awesome, I have never seen anything on that part of behind the scense
and i have seen the book: battle cry
and allot of other production tid bits.

But i can tell you that they more then likely did not use stick placement.
as i said before was probably more body shapes with weight and movement behind it, then sketched over.

The thing about using sticks is they do not display moment correctly.
Animation is all about weight and positions. movement is just the after effect.

Think of it this way, You are not moving lines, Lines are just there to tell the background from the foreground.
one of the first things in school you learn is the bouncing ball, and the sack of flour (the objects change but its always the same, light bouncy then heavy weighted)
From there is your foundation of work. you work in between.
so keep that in mind when animation. try more flushed out limbs and body's
try a fast skinny character vs a slow, strong heavy one.

try to sketch it as masses and objects, not sticks and joints.

may help, may not, each has there own way of doing things. But i think using solid objects will help with the movement

[Xcyper33]

I've tried the shapes animation, it seems very limiting and stuff. The sticks gives me so much more freedom it seems. I can edit my stick/joint figures to add weight. Its a style of choice. I've tried shapes and then this and I like this better. Is it so bad that I can't make this work?

[Bubbowrap]

At 1/30/10 11:47 AM, Ani-x wrote:

also note that animating to a rhythm is a very common thing.( i dunno a animator who doesn't)
that is why when you are in a studio you see a lot of animators humming, tapping there foot or pencil

You know, it's funny. I read the Animator's Survival Kit and Richard Williams was all like 'ANIMATE IN SILENCEZ.'

And. You know. I kind of blew it off. Animating in silence can be done, and it does help concentration to an extent, but. Seriously.

I had something to add, but I'm one of those guys who has trouble critiquing others' animation because they're always like 'O WAT DO U KNO UR NOT PRO.' So.

[Ani-x]

At 1/30/10 12:56 PM, Bubbowrap wrote:

At 1/30/10 11:47 AM, Ani-x wrote:

also note that animating to a rhythm is a very common thing.( i dunno a animator who doesn't)
that is why when you are in a studio you see a lot of animators humming, tapping there foot or pencil

You know, it's funny. I read the Animator's Survival Kit and Richard Williams was all like 'ANIMATE IN SILENCEZ.'

And. You know. I kind of blew it off. Animating in silence can be done, and it does help concentration to an extent, but. Seriously.

I had something to add, but I'm one of those guys who has trouble critiquing others' animation because they're always like 'O WAT DO U KNO UR NOT PRO.' So.

I have read that also, and dunno how tahst done so much. more so in a studio, but to each there own.
not saying all studios play music and such, but alot of animators have there own rythm in there head or headphones on.

also to those who do the whole "'O WAT DO U KNO UR NOT PRO." ignore em.
ppl do not make animations for other animtors, nor do directors make films for for other directors(those who do are trying show off, and have crappy end results)

so if something doesn't look right, the viewer says so. its up the the maker to weigh in on rather its a valid point, or to far off.

to Xcyper33
You can use sticks, if that's what you are most confy with, and you can make it rock for you.
to each there own.
There is a such thing in animation called the line of action.
It also has a basis of rhythm to it. But most do that after a well understanding of movement and distribution.
Its also used more for comical, un natural movements. but can be used for more realistic parts.

you may want try it out.

Give me a few and I will make a example of it

[Xcyper33]

Ami you're awesome I'll read your post later I have to leave from college to the house. We'll speak later then. Thanks bro.

[Xcyper33]

Okies I'm finally back home. Yo Ami, that'd be great if I can see a Line of Action example. I'm more of a visual person anyways. So if you don't mind, I'd like to see.

[Ani-x]

yeah, sorry, got side tracked (day off)
I will do it now.

[Ani-x]

Ok, here is 2 fast examples.

Basically the line of actions is your focal point in which you want to animate around.
think of it kinda like a anchor.

You want to start with your line of action, next skeleton, then sketch animation, Then your line. Then ink. color etc

here the first example. I dunno where i was going with this, But anyways you will get the point.
I made the line of action in bold red.

Line of action 1
You will notice how all the weight and movement revolves around the line, the focal of the movement.

Next is a bit more.
This one i wanted to do kinda of a air action kick.
Again you will notice the movement around the line of action.
again, i started with the line of action, Then my skeleton, Then sketch.

line of action 2

and here is one with some sketch to it, To give you idea on the process and how it starts to fall in line.
Line of action 3

I am a bit rusty on it, sense i have not used it in years. but i think you get the idea. when you combine it with another, It really helps with the flow, rhythm and action.

here is the FLA in case you want pick at it.line of action 1

Line of action 2

[Xcyper33]

Thanks Ani! This is an interesting concept, I've never heard of it until now! i can see how this can be helpful and heck it keeps the characters positioned perfectly. How does this work when objects that the characters will interactive with come into play? Also how does it work when you go for a more
3D perspective (not actual 3D but you know in Sam Champloo they move the camera positions in a very complex manner, and the characters shown move in all directions besides left to right)

[duhidiot]

Holy mother of a cow that just got laid! That is some sweet can 'o' WHOOP ASS you got there!

[Ani-x]

same way as you normally do.
as for direction and cams, I forgot to mention you can change the line of sight, From the center mass, to leg to head. or what ever is really moving.
Ill get around to something tomorrow, I am going watch the fights :)

[Xcyper33]

At 1/30/10 09:32 PM, Ani-x wrote: same way as you normally do.
as for direction and cams, I forgot to mention you can change the line of sight, From the center mass, to leg to head. or what ever is really moving.
Ill get around to something tomorrow, I am going watch the fights :)

Ok thanks!

[Ani-x]

I made a boo boo.
What I showed you was not Line of action, It was in fact Line of mass, Opps (been a wile for me.)
Line of action is the line in which a characters movement flows a certain line or arch, Its along the same principles.
I made a new example.
It is messy but you get what the idea is.

you can use both to help guide you. and when it comes to multiple angles, or multiple characters on screen, It is the same, just keep applying it.