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JackDCurleo
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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 01:48:22 Reply

At 2/1/10 01:09 AM, Deathcon7 wrote: It's the most approachable form of writing. Everyone thinks they can be a poet, that's why a lot of people insist on writing it.

That and the ladies love poetry for some reason, at least mine does, and every other lady I've met.


Art Thread. Art Page. Facebook. Tumblr. I am currently using a tablet so spelling and grammar errors will happen.

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Nateofwar
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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 01:55:41 Reply

poetry is so approachable because alot of ppl don't know what poetry is. they think that by rhyming they are majicaly poets but its alot more than that


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JackDCurleo
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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 01:56:53 Reply

Well sir do enlighten us.


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Sawdust
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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 01:59:02 Reply

At 2/1/10 01:09 AM, Deathcon7 wrote: It's the most approachable form of writing. Everyone thinks they can be a poet, that's why a lot of people insist on writing it.

I don't know, I think the contrary is true, because of all the rules associated with it, and how when I try to write poetry it just looks like prose with a monkey pressing enter over and over, I'll demonstrate

Heathen climate, heretics burned
Zealots climaxing to a masked inferno
Inferno
Skies blood red
Agony condensing onto
The earth

Luscious moon
Grassy greens
Only escape of faith
Of faith
Science's rainbow conducting
Disbelief

Denizens scattering their seeds
Apocalypse arrival
Imminently eminent is the end
The end
Of all

Shower of blood, brimstone blanket
On the earth
And my only universe

Hell, that sort of looked like random words and metaphors. See? It's confusing, it has an air of deepness, meaning, but it could very well be random. For you that could be beautiful, for me that could be confused mumblings attempting to describe the end of the world. That's why I don't like poetry, an effortless combination of words could pass off as art and get you international fame and critical acclaim.

aviewaskewed
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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 02:02:53 Reply

At 1/31/10 10:06 PM, WritersBlock wrote: I did say "most", however, when I got to the part where you use *this* to describe your action dialogue, I stopped reading. Normal stories don't read like MSN convos. Personally, I find it hard to believe that you are well read. If you read more, then you'll surely understand that fiction isn't supposed to be written like that. Have a look at my fan fiction if you will (linked above, see: Flonkerton), and you'll see that I use none of that. Sure, write in the first perspective if you want, I do it all the time, but please, please, PLEASE, do not include yourself as a character in the story. It goes with the comment I made earlier regarding characters not being real. Yes, they must feel real, within the confines of your fictional universe, but they never are actually real. You write about characters. Characters are fictional. When you write about yourself as a character, you are referring to an actual person, and that takes out of the whole experience of the self-contained story. It makes the story less real, because the reader is aware that your fictional universe and the real world must be one and the same, and anything that doesn't match up between your fantasy, or "possible non-actual world" and the actual world discredits your own story. Makes it feel like a gimmick.

I can think of at least one instance where this doesn't really work out, that being Grant Morrison's "Animal Man" in which Morrison tells the story of a mostly forgotten DC hero named Buddy Baker who has the ability to copy the powers of any member of the animal kingdom. It's a series of mad ideas that encompasses many themes and ideas and ends with Buddy having a meeting/confrontation with Morrison over what the author has done to him over the past year or two of stories (including the death of Buddy's family) and Morrison admitting he felt he did a bad job as "God" of Buddy's world. It's pretty fascinating, and whether you think it "works" or it doesn't, it's far from simply being a "gimmick".

I was just pointing out that people shouldn't be discouraged from experimentation, and that in writing and fiction there really are no hard and fast rules in terms of content, there's only the rules outside agents, or audiences, may thrust upon the author.


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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 02:14:58 Reply

Alright, I'm pretty baked, I'll take a shot at some poetry:

A pound, a pence, a penny, a dime
might I have, sir, some of your time?
A lady you see, a friend to me,
she frollicks now with my enemy
I hate it so, to let you know
And now I've planned a crime.

Meh... yeah. It didn't really go anywhere.

Monocrom
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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 03:04:20 Reply

Those who enjoy a good story know who I am.

If you are working on a story where weapons are involved, and you want accurate information about their use or other details, just ask me. I won't teach you how to kill someone, but I can help you in making your story better.

For example, the following scenario is from a rejected book by a well-known publisher:

A character uses a .44 Magnum to shoot himself in the ankle, in order to make the police detectives think he's a victim instead of a suspect. He does this by placing the barrel of the revolver right up against his ankle bone. And by the way, he's on a boat while doing it. If you have a knowledge of ballistics, you can see what's wrong with that picture.

It doesn't have to be just guns. If you're unsure about something, just let me know. I'll be hanging around the Writing forum. Hopefully we don't get a bunch of talentless morons posting spam all over the place, like we did over two years ago before the ban went into effect on the General forum.

Monocrom
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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 03:35:09 Reply

At 2/1/10 03:18 AM, FBIpolux wrote:
At 2/1/10 03:04 AM, Monocrom wrote: A character uses a .44 Magnum to shoot himself in the ankle, in order to make the police detectives think he's a victim instead of a suspect. He does this by placing the barrel of the revolver right up against his ankle bone. And by the way, he's on a boat while doing it. If you have a knowledge of ballistics, you can see what's wrong with that picture.
I'm on a boat! I'm on a boat shooting my leg and watchin' us sinkin' in the mother fucking boat!

And you just blew your foot completely off. So now you're sinking, and you can even run for your life. And you can't even hop off the boat due to shock setting in, or you're freaking out about having blown your foot off!

BTW, good seeing you here.

Version2
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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 03:42:23 Reply

At 2/1/10 03:35 AM, Monocrom wrote:
At 2/1/10 03:18 AM, FBIpolux wrote:
I'm on a boat! I'm on a boat shooting my leg and watchin' us sinkin' in the mother fucking boat!
And you just blew your foot completely off. So now you're sinking, and you can't even run for your life.

I'm riding on a dolphin, doing flips and shit
the dolphins splashin' getting er'ybody all wet.

What now punk? ;)

Nateofwar
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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 03:44:43 Reply

I'm riding on a dolphin, doing flips and shit
the dolphins splashin' getting er'ybody all wet.

What now punk? ;)

Jezzus how baked are you man
if your dolphin did a flip youd fall off duh


Nateofwar owns your mother

Version2
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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 03:47:09 Reply

Lol :) The answer is "very much"!

tigerkitty
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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 06:15:28 Reply

At 2/1/10 03:35 AM, Monocrom wrote: And you just blew your foot completely off. So now you're sinking, and you can even run for your life. And you can't even hop off the boat due to shock setting in, or you're freaking out about having blown your foot off!

BTW, good seeing you here.

What gets me about things like that isn't so much the semantics of it all, but just the mere fact that he's going to shoot off his foot. Yeah, it's easy enough to just write someone would be able to do that... but I think the margin of people who could, realistically, blow off their foot (even if to save themselves from guilt) is tiny tiny tiny.

FlashCam
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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 06:40:17 Reply

The problem is that if I make my own thread for this, I might never find it again.

Or I'm lazy.

Well, I'm stopping there anyway and be starting a new one on Sat

Don't you DARE click my sig....

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tigerkitty
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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 06:47:51 Reply

At 2/1/10 06:40 AM, FlashCam wrote: The problem is that if I make my own thread for this, I might never find it again.

Or I'm lazy.

Well, I'm stopping there anyway and be starting a new one on Sat

To find threads that you post in, you can each use the forum search option at the bottom of the page... or just look through your recent posts and click on the thread from there.

RWT
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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 09:06:21 Reply

At 2/1/10 03:04 AM, Monocrom wrote: A character uses a .44 Magnum to shoot himself in the ankle, in order to make the police detectives think he's a victim instead of a suspect. He does this by placing the barrel of the revolver right up against his ankle bone. And by the way, he's on a boat while doing it. If you have a knowledge of ballistics, you can see what's wrong with that picture.

Not to mention the gunpowder residue all over him and tennis-ball sized hole in his frigging ankle. That one might take some 'splainin.

I'm equally willing to do some research for anyone who wants it. The best thing you can do for any kind of setting is to research the bejeezus out of it. And I'm not boasting when I say I have a great trivial knowledge of many things.

So, give me a PM if you want to know the names of all the trains running in eastern Siberia in the 1890's, the most popular beers in Cairo, what was playing on Nigerian radio stations in the 70's, or how you can kill someone with bagua. Or anything, really.

-~RWT~-


If you don't like my poetry, scroll down the page a bit. It gets better.

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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 11:14:01 Reply

At 2/1/10 02:02 AM, aviewaskewed wrote: I can think of at least one instance where this doesn't really work out, that being Grant Morrison's "Animal Man" in which Morrison tells the story of a mostly forgotten DC hero named Buddy Baker who has the ability to copy the powers of any member of the animal kingdom. It's a series of mad ideas that encompasses many themes and ideas and ends with Buddy having a meeting/confrontation with Morrison over what the author has done to him over the past year or two of stories (including the death of Buddy's family) and Morrison admitting he felt he did a bad job as "God" of Buddy's world. It's pretty fascinating, and whether you think it "works" or it doesn't, it's far from simply being a "gimmick".

I was just pointing out that people shouldn't be discouraged from experimentation, and that in writing and fiction there really are no hard and fast rules in terms of content, there's only the rules outside agents, or audiences, may thrust upon the author.

Well, yes, you do raise some good points. Of course we wouldn't have half the literary masterpieces we do today without a bit of rule bending and a little experimentation. The instance you described sounds like it's been approached in a well thought out, innovative way, as opposed to actually, physically injecting yourself into a story for the sake of being a character. The 'fourth wall', as it's called, can be a very powerful item in a story, as it's up to the writer to 'break the fourth wall' and choose at which point to raise the reader's awareness of the text they're reading.

Personally, I like to occasionally address the reader in an offhand manner that alludes to, but never grounds itself in second person point of view. It can be effective, or it can be annoying and unnatural. Most of the time it comes down to reader preference. However, as far as the scientific term "experiment" goes, you would expect a writer to have a basic understanding of the particular devices in which they're experimenting with, in addition to an exceptional grasp of the written word. That way, they're better positioned to read the results of their experiment as success or failure, to understand what they did and why. Of course, then there's the instance of serendipity, whereby any sort of experimentation can lead to pleasant and unexpected results.

Of course, I think experimentation is vital in the progression of literature, and indeed, in one's own skills. However, I also think that experimentation should be motivated by the desire to produce innovation, as opposed to the same old tried and failed systems that crop up again and again.

On another note, the concept of the author as a character reminds me of the first 'Barry Trotter' parody, wherein the book turns out to be a film, which turns out to be a book written by the main character.

I studied a little on narration last year, and I think the concept of the author as a character to be quite an interesting one. Especially considering it's not nearly the first thing a writer thinks of when starting a story. Characters, plot, setting, point of view, and all that, but it's really the author's narrating character that can make or break a story. Tolkien's "The Hobbit" is a prime example of a narrator that's evidently full of character. Of course, the narration style depends on what sort of story you want to tell, but if you put that thought process in, even if your narrator is a neutral party in your story, that decision should still come across in your writing. It's a major part of the mood and style of your stories, I know I certainly lack the afterthought for the narrating character in my stories that'd really ramp my writing up a notch. I just thought it'd be an interesting muse to share.


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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 14:31:14 Reply

I do agree with WB on what's essentially being said. Using the idea of placing yourself into a piece of writing is experimentally interesting, and I'll add that it does give the writing an extra psychological layer, going off the work that we assume a piece of fiction is what a writer re-organises out of dissatisfaction with their real life. With the backdrop of a conventional narrative, one based around beating or succumbing to external or internal conflict, this is now speaking on a different topic about the writer's life that they are attempting to control - and how the fiction plays out decides whether or not they manage it.

Doing all of this requires a great deal of thought though like WB says, because you're also expecting several things out of the reader then too. Writers need to think about how using the technique can enrichen the story, rather than just give themselves a role that seems flat, out-of-place, and most of all, downright uninteresting (or possibly hypocritical/unlikable/etc. - see links below).

One of my favourite examples of using this in combination with having moments of fourth wall breaking is John Fowles' The French Lieutenant's Woman, which I certainly recommend. Written in the late '60s, the novel works as both a tribute and a parody of nineteenth century English literature, comparing and contrasting some of the assumptions and elements of that society with those of Fowles' time, particularly on the topics of feminism and the development of science. The most striking instance of the technique's use is at the end of chapter 12, which ends on a question of sorts. When chapter 13 opens, Fowles basically says he doesn't have an answer yet, and that the whole story has been made up by him; he even tells us what his original notes for chapter 13 said. He appears as a character in the story once or twice (possibly three times, haven't read it in a while) towards the end - and it makes sense considering he's come clean about his story... although we knew it was fiction anyway! The reason why it works is because it brilliantly is written above: that it establishes a direct playing with nineteenth century principles with those of Fowles in the late '60s.

In another clever moment, there is a sex scene where Fowles, in a way, admits that he can't write good erotica (it's done more subtlely than that, but you get the idea). His answer? He just copies a section from Fanny Hill, one of the classics of erotic fiction. Why? Because he can, and also because it shows him as this omniscient being as far as the story is concerned.

I recommend it, and I'll say now that these aren't the only ways in which the book could be considered experimental. I don't recommend the film so much, which tries to use the same sort of feel as Fowles' book, but it comes off as rather odd (the actors playing the two leads, Jeremy Irons and Meryl Streep, are shown off the set, getting into different situations).

As part of my $5,000 per week deal with TV Tropes, I'll add that they refer to this as an author avatar. There's a range of material there on how it can be used positively or negatively according to fans. It gets you thinking about the implications that the use of an author avatar has. Look at a well-known (notorious to some) example: Brian Griffin in Family Guy: for many different reasons, Brian was developed this way, and is known to give creator Seth MacFarlane's (who voices Brian also) spin on events, especially political ones. The implications kick in in several episodes where Brian cannot be proved wrong, because his liberalism is obviously the way to go. The effect is quite a suffocating one, even for a show with a vast amount of silly jokes and a predominantly teenage/young adult audience.

Related articles on TV Tropes:
Canon Sue (touched upon here in the lounge already).
Author Filibuster
Broken Aesop (in connection with the previous link - though this isn't such an easy thing to define: using the Family Guy example, who's not to say that most of what you 'learn' from the show is then parodied? It parodies this, like many other TV shows of its sort, from the post-'80s period).

I swear I had something else to say, but I got lost in somebody's eyes. Or something.

gamerpeepinpa
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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 15:49:19 Reply

At 2/1/10 01:59 AM, Sawdust wrote: Hell, that sort of looked like random words and metaphors. See? It's confusing, it has an air of deepness, meaning, but it could very well be random. For you that could be beautiful, for me that could be confused mumblings attempting to describe the end of the world. That's why I don't like poetry, an effortless combination of words could pass off as art and get you international fame and critical acclaim.

Couldn't the same be said for all art forms? Even with stories, is there really one way of interpreting its thematic elements as being this or that? Could we be just applying extraneous significance to perceived symbols that really might not exist in the first place?

For me, art, of any form, isn't about ability and "the person who uses the best imagery is the best poet" - ability is important, yes, but think about it: why do most artists create art? Usually it's because they have something to say or because of a need for some emotional or cathartic purge, not because they look for the fame (well, the good ones don't anyway).

That's the thing about all writing - unless the author directly says "this means this and that means that," anything goes. In the end, all poetry really is is just empty, neutral words that we outfit with our own perceived meanings and emotions. You may read a poem one day and it may seem vague and you might even hate it, then after some life-changing experience, a death, an accident, etc., you might find yourself having some epiphany reading it.

That's why people read and write poetry. They need some way to deal with their thoughts and emotions, regardless of their poetic ability. It's true not just for poetry, but for all art.


hi

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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 16:33:11 Reply

Some poem I wrote after reading a few of them here/

Reflections on Death

As I lay drawing my last breath,
I dwelt on my mistakes,
On my bed of death,
All those aches,
All of this suffering,
What a waste,
I did all for her,
She was such a disgrace,
But now it is all a blur,
And I must find my way into the afterlife,
At least I have stayed pure,
For my wife,
Is no more,
She'd go off in the night,
Rotten to the core.


"I am the devil, and I have come to do the devil's work."

-V

greatwh1teshark
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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 16:41:50 Reply

Hi I'm Jack Longman and writing is my world, i write articles for magazines, screenplays, stories, a book, music lyrics and poetry.


That's unbloody British that is!

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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 16:49:10 Reply

I've been waiting to discuss literature with WB ever since I met him... I could weep for joy. I just hope I don't wet myself or say anything stupid about Poe.

I reread Le Carré's The Secret Pilgrim a few months ago, and this discussion of character narrators brings it to mind. If you haven't read it, here's the spoiler-free part that's relevant here: it's written as the memoirs of a man named Ned, a student of super-spy George Smiley, the main character in most of Le Carré's novels. The Secret Pilgrim is less of a novel and more of a collection of short stories, written from the recollections of 'Ned'. (In reality, most of the stories are stories Le Carré knew from his days as an actual intelligence agent, rewritten to include Ned). Parts of it are written in 2nd person, but never conversationally. There's always the air of formality that makes it seem like every word was considered; carefully chosen and edited by a man writing the story of his life. The reader's suspension of disbelief that the book is actually the memoirs of a spy named Ned is, in my opinion, constantly there.

The point I want to make is that the illusion of a story as being written by a character, while neccesitating special care, can be used to great effect. Two important things need to be ensured, however; that the illusion of the character being the one writing it doesn't break down, and that the writing remains in the voice of an author. If the story doesn't sound like it's being written by the character, if it sounds like an omniscient author is writing it, then the spell has been broken. If the story continues to make sense in that case, there's probably not even any reason to use the device.

The other point I mentioned is to maintain the voice of an author. A memoir or a book is not going to begin with 'Hey y'all, here's my story.' (No one would take them seriously; And after all, even fictional sixth-graders know not to use 2nd person in serious writing). What I'm trying to say is this; even if you aren't retarded, the authority that comes with being the author can be hard to duplicate in a character.

This is so better than that time we played monopoly.


If you don't like my poetry, scroll down the page a bit. It gets better.

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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 17:05:57 Reply

At 2/1/10 01:35 AM, Version2 wrote: But now that I'm more well read, and more comfortable with writing, I'm finding short stories to be easier to write.

Yeah, a sentence comes much easier to me than a stanza. I'm not a bad poet; in fact, I'm a songwriter. However, if I could effectively turn a short story into a song, I would much prefer that. But, unfortunately, it's not that easy. :I

At 2/1/10 01:59 AM, Sawdust wrote: I don't know, I think the contrary is true, because of all the rules associated with it, and how when I try to write poetry it just looks like prose with a monkey pressing enter over and over, I'll demonstrate

But the thing is that a lot of people don't know the rules, so they assume that it's easier.

At 2/1/10 03:04 AM, Monocrom wrote: It doesn't have to be just guns. If you're unsure about something, just let me know. I'll be hanging around the Writing forum. Hopefully we don't get a bunch of talentless morons posting spam all over the place, like we did over two years ago before the ban went into effect on the General forum.

I'll probably take you up on that offer, once I get a little farther into my story.

At 2/1/10 06:47 AM, tigerkitty wrote: To find threads that you post in, you can each use the forum search option at the bottom of the page... or just look through your recent posts and click on the thread from there.

Or, in the case of someone like me who has a shitton of posts, bookmark it.


[quote]

whoa art what

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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 17:22:48 Reply

Reading all the talk about fanfics gets me worried about writing my own fanfic (which I am in the process of doing.)

It seems like a large argument here is that some of you don't like when Joe Writer takes characters from a series and sends them off on adventures he comes up with (regardless of wether or not the plot has been beaten into the ground.) To me, such writing immerses me into the characters universe without me actually being there, because I know its more than irritating to throw your self into a self-insertion role and turn out to be the hero of the day.

As far as my current fanfic goes, I'm not doing anything I see wrong. I'm using characters that are established who work off each others quirks and personalities and I'm trying to create an air of direness, action, and all around a level of enjoyability. They have their mission and they must deal with the trials and tribulations that occur and attempt to stop them. And for the most part, I've only made two characters up. I will admit they are supernatural beings, but I'm trying to make it so their actions have extreme consequences to the world around them.

I guess all I can do is gather the courage up to post them in a thead on this forum and see how you all react. But until then, I want to make sure it's up to my standards before having it pounded by your feedback. Besides, I usually write to make people laugh, so being a notoriously short writer, longer tales and stories usually seem convoluted or rehashed when I write them.

Time will tell if I go through with this or I say to myself "What the Hell were you thinking?" and scrap the project as a whole.


Krbyfan1(kur-bee-fan-one)- A creature that resides in the state of Colorado. Distinguished by his size, love of small mammals, video games, and the anime series "Tenchi Muyo!"

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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 17:35:21 Reply

Horrible fan fic time: Anybody ever read The Looking Glass Wars by Frank Beddor? His Alice in Wonderland based books answer all the questions nobody wanted answered, such as, How does nanotechnology work in imagination land? Or who would win in a fight, Lewis Caroll, or a giant cat man with razor claws?

A friend recommended this book to me. We haven't spoken since.

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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 18:31:29 Reply

Fan fiction is a great hobby for people who plan to share it with an exclusive group, or use it as a stepping stone to better things. I have the same stance as George R. R. Martin in regards to fan fiction. Not only is it bad practice for aspiring writers, it's copyright infringement, and should be discouraged.

Other than that, check out my thread and let me know what you think please: http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/1142 246

Doesn't seem this is the best place to get actual critique for your work. Although it is a relatively new forum, and the thread has been alive a relatively short amount of time (17 hrs.. :-/)

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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 18:55:13 Reply

At 2/1/10 06:31 PM, Deathcon7 wrote: Doesn't seem this is the best place to get actual critique for your work. Although it is a relatively new forum, and the thread has been alive a relatively short amount of time (17 hrs.. :-/)

Yeah, I was hoping for some comments in my writing thread (CONVENIENTLY LOCATED IN MY SIG!!) as well. I read your shorts and posted, good stuff man!

NekoMika
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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 19:08:34 Reply

While we're discussing people wanting critique on their writings, I noticed a couple days after this forum was made people used my "Request A Review" link in my sig asking for critique on their writing. I kind of laughed ab it since it was mostly for people who just wanted audio or flash critique/reviews but I guess since people are asking I could expand it to critiquing what someone wrote I think.

Quite a lot of threads with no critique actually, oh well, if one finds them of interest then they get commented and the such while the rest are ignored.


Request Reviews // #8 Reviewer // #2 Audio Reviewer
Audio / Review Moderator - PM with problems or questions

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TrevorW
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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 19:31:30 Reply

I try to comment on everything, but of course I can't. Too much writing and too little time.

Keep it up guys!


Failure should push you until success can pull you.

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Version2
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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 19:44:24 Reply

You're doing an awesome job Trevor, and it'll be 10x more awesome if you hit my thread next :P

:lol, I'm such a whore, ignore me

InsertFunnyUserName
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Response to Writing Forum Lounge 2010-02-01 19:51:01 Reply

This same thing happened to me in the art forum way back when. I would post my art, but hardly anyone would comment a lot of the time, so I never was able to get the feedback that I desired. How do I remove the review-repellent from my work? :I


[quote]

whoa art what

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