Avatar Has Underlying Racist Themes

[KidneyThief]

I noticed this while checking my mail.

Article.

I can't stand it when people try to interpret art that wasn't meant to have a message. Some things believe it or not are just meant to look pretty. I'm sure there are underlying themes in the movie, but I don't feel racism is one of them. Sure the bones of the movie are not the most original, but simply because the main character was cast as a white male does not make him the "white savior."

Thoughts?

[poxpower]

At 1/12/10 03:01 AM, KidneyThief wrote: I noticed this while checking my mail.

Article.

I can't stand it when people try to interpret art that wasn't meant to have a message.

There's a pretty obvious message in the movie, a very stupid one.

However, these people who got offended are EVEN STUPIDER and have made up their own message, not satisfied with the current, normal levels of stupid.

And we're the stupidest of all for reading an article about it. Who the hell writes about that? News should be like communism. If there's no news, shut the hell up and do nothing. It's better to only report actual news than to report X news every day no matter what.

I AM SO WISE

[Elfer]

See the difference here though is that the intruders in this film weren't the white man, they were the human race as a whole.

So in the same way as those other movies mentioned, it's racist, but for humans in general instead of white people.

Incidentally, all of these movies are about a white person renouncing his whiteyness to save the good minority people from the evil white people. The person says "It would be nice if we could save ourselves," but that's a different kind of formulaic movie rather than the formulaic type that Avatar is.

Maybe they're right though. Maybe people would be much happier if there was a movie about a barbaric horde of black people who were threatening a noble tribe of whites, then one enlightened black person earns the trust of the white man, and helps them defend themselves against the black invaders. I'm guessing that everyone would be real happy about this guys.

Also, extra-funny line here:

"When will whites stop making these movies and start thinking about race in a new way?" wrote Newitz, who is white.

[TokingFire]

Oh, c'mon, this yet another cinematic commentary about our invasive antics in the Middle East. Avatar is about as uncomplicated as an allegory can get.

[KidneyThief]

Shit Poxpower, you said what I was trying to say, but much more clearly and efficiently haha, maybe I shouldn't have tried to post at 3 am. I agree with your perspective on news. To be honest I don't think I have ever seen anything remotely interesting on Yahoo. It's sad that people care more about Twilight or who is sleeping with who, rather than anything else that may have some significance in their lives.

[fli]

Well...

When my sister and I saw this, we talked for several hours about how it's like Dances with Wolves and the Last Samurai.

I was glad to see that I wasn't the only one who immediately saw the mythology within its structure.

We wouldn't say racist...
but we did believe it perpetuates the whole White Messiah mythos that's pretty much ingrained in the American psyche.

I mean,
it is after all a literary theme in American Literature, the Noble Savage them, like The Last of the Mohicans. (I'm talking about the book... not the movie, which are very different. Although, the movie adaption is definitely more aligned in the whole White Messiah mythos.)

I won't say it's racist, but since my heritage is that of a conquered people, I'm a whole lot more in tune to these certain themes. I give Cameron the benefit of the doubt and the story is compelling (enough)-- but I also believe he wasn't aware how profound this story could be to Black, Native American, and Latino.

I also believe the movie would be soooo different if they had casted a black guy in this movie as the marine dude.

[adrshepard]

I thought it was a bit anti-white, to tell you the truth. I don't remember seeing any minority marines, and then the only Hispanic turns against them.
Plus, look at all the actors who voiced the natives. None of them are white. White people can't even provide the voices for aliens now? Maybe Cameron didn't think the war-whooping was enough to tell people that the Na'vi aren't caucasian or European analogues.
I thought the villain was pretty bad ass. When he starts pulling the arrow out of himself at the end it was awesome. Too bad Shanequa kept firing more.

[stafffighter]

At 1/12/10 04:40 PM, fli wrote:

I also believe the movie would be soooo different if they had casted a black guy in this movie as the marine dude.

Yes. He would have been either gangster, reformed gangster, overly nerdy because the white writer wanted to avoid making him gangster, or Will Smith.
On a serious note, all I could see them doing is a subtle nod towards "my race was also fucked over." Subtle in the same way the aliens were kinda like Native Americans.

[BrianEtrius]

At 1/12/10 05:39 PM, stafffighter wrote: On a serious note, all I could see them doing is a subtle nod towards "my race was also fucked over." Subtle in the same way the aliens were kinda like Native Americans.

I forgot where I was reading it, but that was more or less the point this whole issue of racism. It's basically Pocahontas except aliens and this whole idea of "You're a white man, you can save us from the other evil white men."

But frankly, I think this is reading too far into the movie, kind of like saying The Wizard of Oz is actually about the rejection of the sliver standard at the turn of the century.

[CaptainChip]

At 1/12/10 06:05 PM, BrianEtrius wrote:

At 1/12/10 05:39 PM, stafffighter wrote: On a serious note, all I could see them doing is a subtle nod towards "my race was also fucked over." Subtle in the same way the aliens were kinda like Native Americans.

I forgot where I was reading it, but that was more or less the point this whole issue of racism. It's basically Pocahontas except aliens and this whole idea of "You're a white man, you can save us from the other evil white men."

It's more like Dances with Wolves, where they teach them their way of life, and he realizes that the white ma- I mean, humans, are douchebags.

They didn't really depend on him because he was human... Hell, they didn't depend on him at all, he just lead when shit hit the fan.

[Proteas]

At 1/12/10 03:01 AM, KidneyThief wrote: Thoughts?

Some people have absolutely nothing better to do with their time than to that sit around and nitpick about other people's work, and this is another perfect example of that.

[stafffighter]

At 1/12/10 06:15 PM, Proteas wrote:

At 1/12/10 03:01 AM, KidneyThief wrote: Thoughts?

Some people have absolutely nothing better to do with their time than to that sit around and nitpick about other people's work, and this is another perfect example of that.

Well there's nit picking and then there's seeing what the filmmaker put in front of you. This is a film that beat people over the head with its messeges so you can't really respond to it without doing what people here have been.

[Korriken]

every movie is racist if you look hard enough

[Proteas]

At 1/12/10 06:32 PM, stafffighter wrote: Well there's nit picking and then there's seeing what the filmmaker put in front of you.

I'd agree with that sentiment normally, but was it really the filmmaker's intention to make a movie with racist intentions? Was it really meant to be a commentary on the ideal of the white messiah? Or is this merely a case of people reading into something a message they want to be there, as people did with saying that Star Wars Episode 3 was a criticism of the Bush Administration?

[stafffighter]

At 1/12/10 06:44 PM, Proteas wrote:

At 1/12/10 06:32 PM, stafffighter wrote: Well there's nit picking and then there's seeing what the filmmaker put in front of you.

I'd agree with that sentiment normally, but was it really the filmmaker's intention to make a movie with racist intentions? Was it really meant to be a commentary on the ideal of the white messiah?

In this movie the military, who have been reduced to mercenary status for a corperation trying to get an oil analog off of Native American analogs. The evil general actually lets loose a couple Bushisms. All this on a planet named Pandora, as in Pandoras Box, which when tampered with spread evil to the world. Subtle it aint.

Or is this merely a case of people reading into something a message they want to be there, as people did with saying that Star Wars Episode 3 was a criticism of the Bush Administration?

You're saying it wasn't?

[Warforger]

I'm tired of this shit, because the minorities are acting like there special and whites aren't, I mean I remember a Australian KFC commercial whcih just had a white guy giving a Jamacian band some KFC and it was deemed "racist", but no white guy complained about the Brinks home security commercials, which in all of them a white guy was always the one who broke into the house, why wasn't at least one of them black? Latino? Because it would then be deemed "racist".

I say we need to end the NAACP and similar organizations and just do one organization against all racism, because groups like that are just advancing there own race, like this "Affirmative Action" bullshit.

[Proteas]

At 1/12/10 07:00 PM, stafffighter wrote: In this movie the military, who have been reduced to mercenary status for a corperation trying to get an oil analog off of Native American analogs. The evil general actually lets loose a couple Bushisms. All this on a planet named Pandora, as in Pandoras Box, which when tampered with spread evil to the world. Subtle it aint.

Depends on the way you look at it. A few of my coworkers are convinced that it's merely a retelling of the Pocahontas story.

You're saying it wasn't?

Wasn't episode 3 a "prequel" to a movie that was released some 32 years ago?

So... unless George Lucas is some kind of psychic....

[BrianEtrius]

Again: I'd like to point out the fact that sometimes it's better not to read too far into a movie.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll be watching The Wiz of Oz while listening to Pink Floyd.

[fli]

At 1/12/10 05:39 PM, stafffighter wrote:

At 1/12/10 04:40 PM, fli wrote: I also believe the movie would be soooo different if they had casted a black guy in this movie as the marine dude.

Yes. He would have been either gangster, reformed gangster, overly nerdy because the white writer wanted to avoid making him gangster, or Will Smith.
On a serious note, all I could see them doing is a subtle nod towards "my race was also fucked over." Subtle in the same way the aliens were kinda like Native Americans.

Meh.
I think casting makes huge differences. I mean, what would Night of the Living Dead be without the black guy?

Or Will Smith hadn't saved the world from zombie/vampires?

The meanings do change and become, literally, something else. Movies like Rosewood are wonderful pieces in deconstructionist theory when it's applied to our best loved mythologies like the White Messiah, the Noble Savage, and the Cowboy.

[SEXY-FETUS]

It's dances with wolves in space.
It's not the great white man saves the ignorant natives, it's the evil white guy denounces his white guynes to become a better person.

[aviewaskewed]

At 1/12/10 07:23 PM, Proteas wrote: Depends on the way you look at it. A few of my coworkers are convinced that it's merely a retelling of the Pocahontas story.

I took it more as it was a commentary on American adventurism and what Cameron perceived to be as our motives in the middle east. I thought it was more anti-american or bashing us over the head with the flaws of the human race then picking on any sort of race.

Wasn't episode 3 a "prequel" to a movie that was released some 32 years ago?

So... unless George Lucas is some kind of psychic....

It's a prequel made in the here and now. While yes it is true that Emperor Palpatine was established as the supreme dictator of the Galactic Empire much earlier on, you're telling me Lucas didn't intend his rise to power as shown in Episode 3 as a rather extreme analogy to Bush and the popularity and overreaching government powers he instituted to general cheers after 9/11? Once again to me, it seemed like we were being obviously clubbed over the head with that suggestion. Just because it's a prequel to much older material doesn't mean the things that Lucas experienced since that time didn't influence his writing. I think it's absolute nonsense the story he was putting out that he had the scripts "done for years". Because if you had scripts made that were this bad (although episode 3 wasn't too bad) just lying around like that, the hell wouldn't your common sense take over at some point and demand you re-write those first truly weak offerings? Jar Jar fucking Binks...

[NOTunowned]

if a "way of life" = race

its just that the other one is more agreeable with the hundreds of thousands of other species

and this culture has shaped your perceptions to go along with it

definition of avatar could mean an archaic revival, which isnt fullblown tribalization

and George Lucas was advised by John Lilly, so read the latters books, and watch that movie with an altered perception... like it was intended

[poxpower]

At 1/13/10 03:05 AM, aviewaskewed wrote:

So... unless George Lucas is some kind of psychic....

It's a prequel made in the here and now. While yes it is true that Emperor Palpatine was established as the supreme dictator of the Galactic Empire much earlier on, you're telling me Lucas didn't intend his rise to power as shown in Episode 3 as a rather extreme analogy to Bush and the popularity and overreaching government powers he instituted to general cheers after 9/11?

Bah, Lucas is way too stupid NOT to have gone for that.

I mean, WHAT THE HELL
The entire episode 3 movie is about using the Dark Side to learn the secret to immortality or some bullshit and THEY NEVER MENTION IT AGAIN in the 3 other movies.
What is that shit?
And worse, the good Jedis have apparently discovered that secret too. But it's fucking QUI GON who learned it? How did he do that? He didn't even vanish when he died in the first movie, like yoda and Obi-Wan do when THEY die.

I MEAN COME ON.
And how did Darth Vader learn it? Did he and the Emperor finally discover that secret too? Then what are they celebrating for, the Emperor's ghost is still going to be there haunting kids and whatnot.

All bullshit.

BAH.

You'd think that when you can write a movie from scratch and have unlimited money to make it work, you could at least keep yourself from fucking up TOO bad every 15 minutes.

SECOND BAH.

p.s. I haven't even seen avatar but from the synopsis, it sounds retarded. But this is the Terminator 2 and True Lies guy.... although there's no Arnold in this.
That's probably why it sucks. When you see Arnold on screen, you don't give a shit if the movie makes no sense because the lead actor is an Austrian bodybuilder who can barely speak English.

Someone needs to replace Arnold and soon or I'm going to lose my shit >:O

[Sajberhippien]

Sorry to go a little OT, but thought this was worth replying to (being somewhat of a SW g33k)

At 1/13/10 04:55 AM, poxpower wrote: I mean, WHAT THE HELL
The entire episode 3 movie is about using the Dark Side to learn the secret to immortality or some bullshit and THEY NEVER MENTION IT AGAIN in the 3 other movies.

Well, in Ep 4, Kenobi DOES say something like "If you kill me, I'll be stronger than I've ever been".
But the only one in the movies to ever say the dark force leads to immortality is Sidious - who isn't exactly known for being straight and honest.
If you consider other official sources to star wars than the movies, Sidious' old master Plaguesis WAS extremely interested in immortality and life and death in general. He planned an experiment to "create" a child by manipulating midi-chlorians (anakin anyone?), which caused the paranoid sidious to kill plaguesis.

Anyways, I don't think there's any official sources apart from himself that actually claim Sidious to know the secrets of immortality.

What is that shit?
And worse, the good Jedis have apparently discovered that secret too. But it's fucking QUI GON who learned it? How did he do that? He didn't even vanish when he died in the first movie, like yoda and Obi-Wan do when THEY die.

Yes, that's quite weird - I never even thought of Qui-Gon as an exceptional jedi until after it was mentioned. He seemed much like any other jedi, unlike for example mace windu and yoda which are far more powerful than most. However, wookiepedia has some information on it:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Qui_gon

[thies]

Come on, there's always some people that try to find something racist in movies and commercials and stuff. Even if it's really obvious, it might be done just accidentally. I mean, why would a company make racist things in their commercials/movie/whatever, it would only give them a bad name.

I'm not racist myself btw.

[Proteas]

At 1/13/10 03:05 AM, aviewaskewed wrote: I took it more as it was a commentary on American adventurism and what Cameron perceived to be as our motives in the middle east. I thought it was more anti-american or bashing us over the head with the flaws of the human race then picking on any sort of race.

And I look at it as being simply a piece of fictional entertainment whose sole purpose is to make money, which may have been all what Cameron intended it to be.

I mean, seriously, we don't pay that much attention on here or give much credibility to the political rantings or intentions of musicians, why are we paying this movie so much attention?

It's a prequel made in the here and now.

Based on a story he wrote 32 years ago, as in he already had the storyline and characters fleshed out, which was my entire point. I had friends in High school who went into Episode 2 knowing exactly what was going to happen in the movie because Lucas had already released a novel serialization long in advance of the movies, and guess what they said? "The book was better.".

Of course, I could simply back this up pointing out that the first movie was episode 4 in a 9 part series, and Obi Wan even went so far as to make reference to the Clone Wars when he first met Luke Skywalker.

Once again to me, it seemed like we were being obviously clubbed over the head with that suggestion.

But was it Lucas's intention to club you over the head with that suggestion? Or was that merely something you wanted to see?

Because if you had scripts made that were this bad (although episode 3 wasn't too bad) just lying around like that, the hell wouldn't your common sense take over at some point and demand you re-write those first truly weak offerings? Jar Jar fucking Binks...

Nobody ever accused Lucas of being intelligent.

[Proteas]

At 1/13/10 08:48 AM, Proteas wrote: Nobody ever accused Lucas of being intelligent.

I'd also like to point out that given that these series was originally written the mid to late 1970's, the idea of a Jamaican alien might have been a good idea at the time.

[Elfer]

At 1/13/10 04:55 AM, poxpower wrote: p.s. I haven't even seen avatar but from the synopsis, it sounds retarded. But this is the Terminator 2 and True Lies guy.... although there's no Arnold in this.
That's probably why it sucks. When you see Arnold on screen, you don't give a shit if the movie makes no sense because the lead actor is an Austrian bodybuilder who can barely speak English.

I wouldn't say Avatar sucks. Sure, if it was just an idea for a story it would suck and have been done before, but the point of the movie isn't to make a new thought-provoking story, it's to take the same thing we've seen before with stock characters, then put in a bazillion dollars worth of 3D effects.

In that respect, it's got a bunch of good explosions, people getting shot with arrows and shit, people getting fucked up by giant rhinosaurs, and dudes walking around in robot suits.

Basically my advice here is to see it in the theatre or don't see it at all, until 120 Hz home projectors are commonplace at least. I'd say it's worth it just for the tech demo aspect of it.

Someone needs to replace Arnold and soon or I'm going to lose my shit >:O

People we are currently missing:
- Arnold Schwarzenegger
- Sylvester Stallone
- Jean Claude Van Damme
- Bruce Lee
- Bruce Willis
- Gary Busey
- The woman who played Sarah Connor in Terminator 2 (Aside from this, women are mostly interchangeable in action films as written)

[NOTunowned]

too bad you people aren't as perceptive, comedy does not trigger laugh
link

and you'll find superior discussion from people with tarnished senses on other boards like imdb

instead of "it was gay"

[NOTunowned]

and sigourney weavers character could be a reference to richard evans schultes, who was a ethnobotanist