Somali pirate stock exchange

[Zoraxe7]

Pirate Capitalism

Its kinda neat how its like a business there, I guess its better than supporting the Islamic fundamentalist groups in Somalia.

[chairmankem]

It's either this or terrorism.

[OddlyPoetic]

At 1/10/10 08:28 PM, chairmankem wrote: It's either this or terrorism.

What....?

[chairmankem]

Well, it's good that there's a capitalist ethos in the country. It could be put to good use.

[OddlyPoetic]

At 1/10/10 09:40 PM, chairmankem wrote: Well, it's good that there's a capitalist ethos in the country. It could be put to good use.

They were never terrorists to begin with. All they wanted to make money. Terrorists seek to spread some kind of ideology. An capitalist ethos won't help at all without some kind of regulation. All this will do is show more Somalians that the business is profitable.

[chairmankem]

At 1/10/10 09:42 PM, OddlyPoetic wrote: They were never terrorists to begin with. All they wanted to make money. Terrorists seek to spread some kind of ideology. An capitalist ethos won't help at all without some kind of regulation. All this will do is show more Somalians that the business is profitable.

I'm not saying they were. I'm just saying that capitalism is a better motivator, and overall, better for the country. That energy can be used to build the country rather than disrupting shipping.

Overall, Somalia's economy seems to be growing, which is a good thing.

[TheThing]

At 1/10/10 09:58 PM, chairmankem wrote: Overall, Somalia's economy seems to be growing, which is a good thing.

It's growing because governments are paying the pirates to get off their freighters.

That's like saying the Detroit economy is growing because heroin sales are up.

[chairmankem]

At 1/10/10 10:04 PM, TheThing wrote: It's growing because governments are paying the pirates to get off their freighters.
That's like saying the Detroit economy is growing because heroin sales are up.

Piracy only makes a very small fraction of the Somali economy.

Either way, there is some investment in Somalia, and markets are doing well in the absence of government regulation.

[OddlyPoetic]

At 1/10/10 09:58 PM, chairmankem wrote:

At 1/10/10 09:42 PM, OddlyPoetic wrote: They were never terrorists to begin with. All they wanted to make money. Terrorists seek to spread some kind of ideology. An capitalist ethos won't help at all without some kind of regulation. All this will do is show more Somalians that the business is profitable.

I'm not saying they were. I'm just saying that capitalism is a better motivator, and overall, better for the country. That energy can be used to build the country rather than disrupting shipping.

Or, more likely the country will remain the lawless wasteland that is it and the only thing it will become is a haven for pirates. All this could help do is bring back piracy.

Overall, Somalia's economy seems to be growing, which is a good thing.

In the same sense that Mafia's economy's are growing. This money isn't benefiting the country as a whole, only the pirates.

[TheThing]

At 1/10/10 10:08 PM, chairmankem wrote:

At 1/10/10 10:04 PM, TheThing wrote: It's growing because governments are paying the pirates to get off their freighters.
That's like saying the Detroit economy is growing because heroin sales are up.

Piracy only makes a very small fraction of the Somali economy.

What does Somalia produce besides pirates? If the only job opportunities are to become a pauper or a pirate, there's very little economic activity going on.

Either way, there is some investment in Somalia, and markets are doing well in the absence of government regulation.

The only markets they have are like the ones described in the article - markets set up by pirates in order to get outside funding. There are literally illegal activities going on in this stock market, and I'm not talking about ponzi schemes or insider trading.

[aviewaskewed]

At 1/10/10 09:58 PM, chairmankem wrote: Overall, Somalia's economy seems to be growing, which is a good thing.

So any thing that might look like capitalism taking root is good? Even if it's criminal activity?

I hate going to the route of just insulting someone but...it's accurate in this case: You are an idiot and you are talking out your ass. Unless you support criminal organizations in general. Then I'd have to re-evaluate everything you said based on that.

[chairmankem]

You people seem to think that the ONLY thing coming out of Somalia is piracy. It isn't.

Economic conditions in the country vary from region to region. In relatively stable areas that aren't completely devastated by civil war, there is economic freedom to set up legitimate businesses because there is no market regulation whatsoever. The telecommunications industry is doing better than usual for most African countries because there isn't any government to (corruptly) regulate them. Of course, the country is not in a good shape, but if order was restored to the country, it should be relatively facile to bring real investment into the country, because it has a lot of unexplored natural resources.

As far as piracy goes, it IS reviving their economy, for better or for worse. The local fishing industry is doing a lot better because all the foreign fishing fleets are being driven away. The loot that the pirates get often goes into the economy, providing jobs. If you want to stop the financial losses from piracy, then you better find some way of restoring order and economic security to the country.

My main point is that the country has potential, despite the rife political problems.

[TheThing]

At 1/11/10 06:28 AM, chairmankem wrote: In relatively stable areas that aren't completely devastated by civil war, there is economic freedom to set up legitimate businesses because there is no market regulation whatsoever.

I hope you do understand that regulations are put into place in order to protect the economy from recessions and depressions, along with protecting consumers and workers from unsafe business practices.

The telecommunications industry is doing better than usual for most African countries because there isn't any government to (corruptly) regulate them.

Our communications sector is doing great. There's a cell phone in every hand in America. Besides, there aren't any evil, corrupt regulations put on these companies.

because it has a lot of unexplored natural resources.

That nobody will attempt to get at. If there are pirates in the oceans, no one is going to try to ship oil out of the country. Also, there would be constant attacks on the drilling sites from rebels and people who are taking a page from the pirate's book.

As far as piracy goes, it IS reviving their economy, for better or for worse.

Just like drug dealing and theft (the latter of which is what they actually do)

The loot that the pirates get often goes into the economy, providing jobs.

They aren't buying the kinds of things that create jobs. They're buying imported cars and jewelery. The only thing you could say is helping create jobs is that the pirates are building huge houses.

My main point is that the country has potential, despite the rife political problems.

It has potential because it's rife with political problems.

[aviewaskewed]

At 1/11/10 06:28 AM, chairmankem wrote: You people seem to think that the ONLY thing coming out of Somalia is piracy. It isn't.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm calling you out for praising a criminal enterprise as good on the grounds that simply because it follows an economic system you agree with, it is good. That's the point you seemed to be making and that to me is a horseshit attitude because I highly doubt you apply that thinking across the board.

Economic conditions in the country vary from region to region.

Oh, so if you're in a poor section it's cool to do crime? Would you apply that to America or other nations as well?

In relatively stable areas that aren't completely devastated by civil war, there is economic freedom to set up legitimate businesses because there is no market regulation whatsoever. The telecommunications industry is doing better than usual for most African countries because there isn't any government to (corruptly) regulate them. Of course, the country is not in a good shape, but if order was restored to the country, it should be relatively facile to bring real investment into the country, because it has a lot of unexplored natural resources.

So in the meantime it's ok to have a criminal enterprise that is setting itself up as a major part of the economy and will actually turn areas of the country, if not the whole country, into a haven for criminals in the same trade?

As far as piracy goes, it IS reviving their economy, for better or for worse. The local fishing industry is doing a lot better because all the foreign fishing fleets are being driven away. The loot that the pirates get often goes into the economy, providing jobs. If you want to stop the financial losses from piracy, then you better find some way of restoring order and economic security to the country.

Oh no, we don't have to do that. They should be doing that. I don't see where they should have the right to essentially blackmail the world and go "look, if you don't want us to be criminals...you need to find out a way for us not to be criminals". That's not how civilized nations tend to play the game. You actually have mentioned some opportunities that open up for people, so why not pursue that and make some opportunities vs. turning to crime?

My main point is that the country has potential, despite the rife political problems.

But you also condoned criminal activity because hey, as long as it's capitalist! I highly doubt you'd take that attitude if this was happening in America or another industrialized nation.

[chairmankem]

At 1/11/10 09:16 PM, TheThing wrote: I hope you do understand that regulations are put into place in order to protect the economy from recessions and depressions, along with protecting consumers and workers from unsafe business practices.

Yeah, I'm aware. But I'm not comparing Somalia to America. I'm comparing it to its neighbors, wherein corruption in regulation often slows economic growth.

At 1/11/10 09:48 PM, aviewaskewed wrote: I'm not saying that at all. I'm calling you out for praising a criminal enterprise as good on the grounds that simply because it follows an economic system you agree with, it is good.

My main point was that if the developed world is going to run countries like Somalia into the dirt, they shouldn't be surprised when their problems turn into international ones. The system in itself is not good... for Western countries. It achieves some success in the short run but it's not the enterprise that I'm praising, but the fact that people there are enterprising.

[Memorize]

At 1/11/10 09:16 PM, TheThing wrote:

I hope you do understand that regulations are put into place in order to protect the economy from recessions and depressions, along with protecting consumers and workers from unsafe business practices.

That certainly explains the increase of regulations under Bush and the current situation the States are in.

Regulation isn't created to protect consumers and workers. Regulation is created to bury a new starting business in paperwork and debt so they can't either start up or expand to compete against the corporate giants that are buddy buddy with the Government.

Our communications sector is doing great. There's a cell phone in every hand in America. Besides, there aren't any evil, corrupt regulations put on these companies.

Excellent example.

First state that regulations are good for the economy and to protect consumers... and then use an example where the Government has very little to nothing to do with at all.

[Zoraxe7]

The local fishermen are benefiting from the pirates.

But this doesn't exactly prove that piracy is good, just that large commercial overfishing of an area is bad.

[TheThing]

At 1/11/10 10:45 PM, chairmankem wrote: Yeah, I'm aware. But I'm not comparing Somalia to America. I'm comparing it to its neighbors, wherein corruption in regulation often slows economic growth.

You can't compare piles of shit and claim that one is better because it doesn't have corn in it.

My main point was that if the developed world is going to run countries like Somalia into the dirt, they shouldn't be surprised when their problems turn into international ones.

But we aren't. Besides fishing in the area, what have we done to create the civil war and destroy the economy? It was power hungry warlords that created the dire economic situation, not the West.

It achieves some success in the short run but it's not the enterprise that I'm praising, but the fact that people there are enterprising.

So are the drug dealers in Detroit. Crime is crime, even if it is "enterprising".

But I do understand where you're coming from, that these Somalians are the ability, but they aren't putting it to good use.

At 1/11/10 11:21 PM, Memorize wrote: That certainly explains the increase of regulations under Bush and the current situation the States are in.

Actually, Bush took away a lot of regulations that would have prevented much of the economic collapse. He also appointed an SEC chief that covered his eyes when something shady was going on.

Regulation isn't created to protect consumers and workers. Regulation is created to bury a new starting business in paperwork and debt so they can't either start up or expand to compete against the corporate giants that are buddy buddy with the Government.

Exactly. The government hates business. There's no way it can succeed in with regulations.

There are plenty of start-ups and small businesses that are succeeding, or prospering into multi-million dollar corporations. Regulation is only there to protect the people and the economy, not to hold down small business. Because trust me, Mom and Pop's Pizza doesn't face half the regulations Domino's has to face.

Our communications sector is doing great. There's a cell phone in every hand in America. Besides, there aren't any evil, corrupt regulations put on these companies.

Excellent example.

First state that regulations are good for the economy and to protect consumers... and then use an example where the Government has very little to nothing to do with at all.

Taken out of context, you're right. But, I was responding to comments made about the communications sector of Somalia doesn't have any "evil" regulations on it. I though that the original poster was referring the American communications system, when he was really referring to other African nations.

Besides, the government regulates a lot of it. They control what frequencies can be used by what devices, where lines and towers can go, who has the right o a monopoly, etc.

[chairmankem]

At 1/12/10 10:49 PM, TheThing wrote: You can't compare piles of shit and claim that one is better because it doesn't have corn in it.

It really doesn't help when a large portion of the world is like that.

But we aren't. Besides fishing in the area, what have we done to create the civil war and destroy the economy? It was power hungry warlords that created the dire economic situation, not the West.

Aside from the post-colonial retreat from Africa that left the continent almost as impoverished and unstable as it started, but with more people?

But I do understand where you're coming from, that these Somalians are the ability, but they aren't putting it to good use.

Exactly. Unfortunately, the means for building the country (and the rest of the Third World) is there, but there is a lack of will nor a suitable environment in which to effect change.

[NOTunowned]

don't forget about the illegal dumping

word on the street some of the waste came from the giant particle accelerator that doesn't benefit common people

[TheThing]

At 1/12/10 10:56 PM, chairmankem wrote:

At 1/12/10 10:49 PM, TheThing wrote: You can't compare piles of shit and claim that one is better because it doesn't have corn in it.

It really doesn't help when a large portion of the world is like that.

Doesn't matter. The West (including Europe and North America) is considered a model society. We have a stable government and widespread infrastructure, along with a good military and a strong economy (compared to these places). It should be compared to the West if you want to figure out how good or bad it is.

But we aren't. Besides fishing in the area, what have we done to create the civil war and destroy the economy? It was power hungry warlords that created the dire economic situation, not the West.

Aside from the post-colonial retreat from Africa that left the continent almost as impoverished and unstable as it started, but with more people?

That was almost completely Europe. They colonized Africa, destroying a stable society (although not as technologically advanced) and replacing it with unstable regions and arbitrary lines drawn. This was after they took most of their natural resources.

While that was obviously very bad, it shouldn't be as hard as it is to create a stable, legitimate government in these countries. It's the people themselves (only a small portion, but enough) that are continuing to worsen the situation.

But I do understand where you're coming from, that these Somalians are the ability, but they aren't putting it to good use.

Exactly. Unfortunately, the means for building the country (and the rest of the Third World) is there, but there is a lack of will nor a suitable environment in which to effect change.

The political climate isn't right. Without any repercussions for criminal activity, there's no incentive to stop, especially if it's very lucrative. There is a chance that the country can be saved since it has the ingenuity and resources. But it can't until the government can control it's people

[chairmankem]

At 1/12/10 11:16 PM, TheThing wrote: Doesn't matter. The West (including Europe and North America) is considered a model society. We have a stable government and widespread infrastructure, along with a good military and a strong economy (compared to these places). It should be compared to the West if you want to figure out how good or bad it is.

Except when we try to develop these regions, we can't look at the West as a perfect political and social model. You can't set up their government like Western ones and expect them to conform to our social and political norms overnight.

That was almost completely Europe. They colonized Africa, destroying a stable society (although not as technologically advanced) and replacing it with unstable regions and arbitrary lines drawn. This was after they took most of their natural resources.

And Europe isn't the West? Don't forget American intervention in the Philippines and South America. The US isn't completely blameless of doing the same exact things in different regions.

While that was obviously very bad, it shouldn't be as hard as it is to create a stable, legitimate government in these countries.

Except no one is really willing to create a stable environment in which to do so.

[aviewaskewed]

At 1/12/10 10:49 PM, TheThing wrote: Besides, the government regulates a lot of it. They control what frequencies can be used by what devices, where lines and towers can go, who has the right o a monopoly, etc.

They still let the cell phone companies charge the customers for "services" like texting that actually don't cost the cell phone company anything at all to operate. As if they didn't stick you for enough money already. Although that's getting a bit off topic.

[morefngdbs]

At 1/11/10 09:48 PM, aviewaskewed wrote:

I'm not saying that at all. I'm calling you out for praising a criminal enterprise as good on the grounds that simply because it follows an economic system you agree with, it is good.

Well Aviewaskewed, IMO the biggest criminal organization on the planet is the Banking system closely followed by the worlds Governments...Just what happened last year made what Madoff pulled look like small potatoes.
Hundreds of thousands of investors & pension holders lost most & in some cases everything...& the Governments used the taxpayers money to bail them out ! ! ! ! !
Banks are posting 4th quarter multi billion dollar profits & is there any talk about repayin gall the investors & pensioers that lost their shirts ?
No sir...no there is not.
totally criminal if you or i or anyone here tried that kind of shit !

[Grizzli]

Play the first 5 minutes of Uncharted: Drake Fortune and you'll know that pirates suck major balls. There should be higher punishments and more law enforcement against pirates.

[aviewaskewed]

At 1/20/10 08:18 PM, morefngdbs wrote: totally criminal if you or i or anyone here tried that kind of shit !

Not disagreeing but what does that really have to do with the topic more? I think that's a rant better served somewhere else.

[morefngdbs]

At 1/20/10 08:58 PM, aviewaskewed wrote:

At 1/20/10 08:18 PM, morefngdbs wrote: totally criminal if you or i or anyone here tried that kind of shit !

Not disagreeing but what does that really have to do with the topic more? I think that's a rant better served somewhere else.

;;;
Sorry Aviewaskewed, What I meant was in reading the opening post & checking out the link, I seen that this 'pirate enterprise' has done 10 hijackings at as it says about 4 million each...so 40 million dollars. Actually a bit less because the first ones were 2.5 -3 million

Your comment about -QUOTE "I'm calling you out for praising a criminal enterprise as good on.... "

Caught my eye...& I thought in my fertile brain "Whoa AVIE... you're calling these guy's criminals...these guy's are amateurs compared to the crooks who run the worlds major banks" .... I thought my totally criminal line tied in the OP's link, with your comment & my thoughts.

Sorry I wasn't more clear...probably had a bit to do with my homemade sore throat remedy...gargling with Black Sambucca, 1 ounce shots you gargle for 10 seconds swallow a little & then repeat for a total of 3 times per shot...I was on my 6th or 7th when I came by.