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At 12/18/09 10:45 AM, Zoraxe7 wrote: 1 in 10, really? I don't think I believe that. I heard that its more like 1 in 15. Even then that's a lot of gay people, are we sure theses statistics are reliable?

Well, any time I see statistic on the gay population... it's always been that ratio, although JAMA, a few years back, had an article stating that the queer sexualities (not necessarily just gay, but bi-sexual, bi-curious, transgendered, and any degree of sexuality that's not straight) may occur at a higher rate.

It said that being completely straight is more rare than being just only slightly queer...
I don't know what's that statistic.

Otherwise,
people who outright identify with the queer community occur once in every 10 people.

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At 12/18/09 05:15 PM, Fyndir wrote: What bothers me is the principle of the thing, why are we pouring our money into that country if they're going to enact such hideously oppressive laws?

There is a marginal counter-terrorism interest in Uganda, given that it has both a noticeable Islamic population and a history of conflict. US money helps fund programs thought to moderate religious extremism and decrease the chance of a crisis that terrorist groups could exploit. Enacting a death penalty against homosexuality wouldn't really change anything.

http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PDACK074.p df

At 12/18/09 02:46 PM, ThePretenders wrote:

Or if that's too cold for you, how about the fact that a human life is still a human life, regardless of which country it's born in?

Yeah, but so many human lives deserve to be ended, so to me the whole "life is precious" argument cancels itself out.

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At 12/18/09 02:23 AM, aviewaskewed wrote:

At 12/17/09 06:15 PM, Proteas wrote: (1) It's not our job to be the Police of the world.

The last few Presidents have made it explicitly clear they think we should be the moral police of everybody. I disagree,

You disagree that we should set a good example? Welllllllllll?

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At 12/18/09 08:45 PM, JackPhantasm wrote: You disagree that we should set a good example? Welllllllllll?

Read and respond to the whole thought Jack instead of just stopping halfway in and responding. I'm fine with America setting a good example, and by our ideals I think we do that. By the amount of aid both in monetarily and militarily, I think we do that. But what pisses me off is what I stated that you didn't feel was worth quoting: I strongly disagree with lying to the world when we say "we'll go fight off anybody who violates human rights and acts like a total asshat, with force if necessary" because that is such a load. We do NOT go fight such people off unless there's some other interest we have in the region, and we have some notion that we'll win (but then, it almost always seems we think we can win any battle because we're always "in the right").

Next time please quote me in context and reply to what I'm actually saying instead of trying to play some feeble game of "gotcha" or not taking the time to really read through what I'm saying.

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At 12/18/09 05:15 PM, Fyndir wrote:

What bothers me is the principle of the thing, why are we pouring our money into that country if they're going to enact such hideously oppressive laws?

Like I said, you can't change it all at once.
That kind of shithole has to be supported until it's citizens are out of the shitter enough that they finally connect to the rest of the globe and make social progress.

Leaving them alone in their corner just makes them more unstable and it turns that kind of place into havens for terrorists and illegal operations of all kind that eventually come back to us.

I know it sucks to have to give help to countries that think women can cast spells and gingers have magical penises but it's not as expensive in the long run as, say, invading them and it's not as bad for the population as just cutting them off completely.

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At 12/18/09 08:45 PM, JackPhantasm wrote:

At 12/18/09 02:23 AM, aviewaskewed wrote: The last few Presidents have made it explicitly clear they think we should be the moral police of everybody. I disagree,

You disagree that we should set a good example? Welllllllllll?

You think the job of the police is setting a good example? Try going 120 on the highway and see if they just set a good example.

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(1) It's not our job to be the Police of the world.

I'd like to note here that this bill was spearheaded by the Family, a USA based christian political "lobby." This being said I think we should take responsibility to stem messes that our own country men create.

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I'm sorry, but knowingly passing on HIV should be an automatic death sentence.

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At 12/21/09 04:51 AM, WolvenBear wrote: I'm sorry, but knowingly passing on HIV should be an automatic death sentence.

This isn't about passing HIV.
It's about genocide of the LGBT culture.

Why should you even say, "I'm sorry," when it's obvious that you're insincere about it.

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At 12/21/09 05:05 AM, fli wrote: Why should you even say, "I'm sorry," when it's obvious that you're insincere about it.

Cause I'm sorry someone else is so stupid?

The provisions for execution are simple:

Pass HIV knowlingly.
Screw a Minor
Or be Promiscuous with proof. (Proof being multiple people coming forward catching STDs woth you, or being caught in public more than 4 times.)

I see no problem with this.

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At 12/21/09 05:27 AM, WolvenBear wrote: I see no problem with this.

This bill says that if you're any sort of queer... you're dead.
If you know or possibly know a queer and not report it... you're probably dead too.
No exceptions.

This isn't a provision to curb the AIDS crisis, although people I'm sure will masquerade this as some solution to AIDS. Genocides are always justified in one way or another.

If they really want to curb their AIDS problem, then they should be learning about condoms. Instead, they willingly avoiding them... trying to cure it by fucking virgins (thereby perpetuating the disease), and household old-wives remedies... like taking showers after sex, eating raw garlic and lemon peels, and things like that.

If they really want to help to remove their AIDS problem, then maybe they should be dispelling the myths that seem to cover those people in a perpetual cloud of ignorance. I mean, some people are saying that AIDS come from using condoms!

This bill is about legalizing genocide.
It's not about AIDS.

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Trying to change the mindset of an entire people is like trying to stop time. Whether or not the bill is passed or not won't change the fact that homosexuals will still be persecuted and even killed. The likelihood of the matter is that the bill will be passed and enforced REGARDLESS of whether it is approved or not.

They've been butchering each other over there for the past 50 years at least, and nobody has given two shits about this backwater African country. Now that a minority are being targeted for extermination, everyone is like "Oh, we have to stop them from prosecuting gays because they have feelings too, bitch bitch bitch". I really hope those who condemn this action realize they're waist deep in their own shit.

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This bill says that if you're any sort of queer... you're dead.
If you know or possibly know a queer and not report it... you're probably dead too.
No exceptions.

Um, horseshit. The bill says no such thing. It sets forth THREE standards for death:

:The death sentence where the offender has HiV, is a "serial offender" or the other person is under 18.

While I could really do without the under 18 thing, the HIV thing should be an automatic death sentence. Straight or queer.

If they really want to help to remove their AIDS problem, then maybe they should be dispelling the myths that seem to cover those people in a perpetual cloud of ignorance. I mean, some people are saying that AIDS come from using condoms!

This bill is about legalizing genocide.
It's not about AIDS.

Hey, write whatever in it that makes you feel good. It doesn't say what you claim, as I showed above.

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At 12/21/09 07:50 AM, NikeThanatos wrote: Trying to change the mindset of an entire people is like trying to stop time. Whether or not the bill is passed or not won't change the fact that homosexuals will still be persecuted and even killed. The likelihood of the matter is that the bill will be passed and enforced REGARDLESS of whether it is approved or not.

Although the police over there is shitty, there is a huge difference when somebody is out to kill whether the police will protect you or assist him in killing you.

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At 12/22/09 06:34 AM, WolvenBear wrote:

This bill is about legalizing genocide.
It's not about AIDS.

Hey, write whatever in it that makes you feel good. It doesn't say what you claim, as I showed above.

Oh, who gives a damn about you? It's obvious you're just a bigot.

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At 12/22/09 06:34 AM, WolvenBear wrote:

The death sentence where the offender has HiV, is a "serial offender" or the other person is under 18.

While I could really do without the under 18 thing, the HIV thing should be an automatic death sentence. Straight or queer.

Um no, simply having HIV should not be an automatic death sentence, maybe if the person starts spreading it to as many people as they can, but not just for having it.

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At 12/17/09 02:25 PM, Major-n0ob wrote: What if you are a straight man living in Uganda when this bill passes and your best friend is gay. Would you turn him in and cover your ass?

What kind of sick question is this?

You'd be a really shitty friend for doing something like this instead of protecting him, friend or not.

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http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/09 /15/14708
The wording of the bill...
MEMORANDUM

1. The Principle

The object of this Bill is to establish a comprehensive legislation to protect the traditional family by prohibiting (i) any form of sexual relations between people of the same sex; and (ii) the promotion or recognition of such sexual relations in public institutions as healthy, normal or an acceptable lifestyle, including in the public schools, through or with the support of any government entity in Uganda or any non- governmental organization inside or outside the country. Research indicates that the homosexuality has a variety of negative consequences including higher incidences of violence, sexually transmitted diseases, and use of drugs. The higher incidence of separation and break-up in homosexual relationships also creates a highly unstable environment for children raised by homosexuals through adoption or otherwise, and can have profound psychological consequences on those children. In addition, the promotion of homosexual behavior undermines our traditional family values.

Given Uganda's historical, legal, cultural and religious values which maintain that the family, based on marriage between a man and a woman is the basic unit of society. This Bill aims at strengthening the nation's capacity to deal with emerging internal and external threats to the traditional heterosexual family. These threats include: redefining human rights to elevate homosexual and transgender behavior as legally protected categories of people.

This legislation is aimed at halting the advance of the "sexual rights" agenda, which seeks to establish additional legally protected classes based on sexual preferences and behaviors, as well as claims that people have rights based on these preferences and behaviors. Sexual rights activists have created new euphemisms to promote this agenda such as "sexual orientation," "gender identity," "sexual minorities" and "sexual rights."

This legislation further recognizes the fact that same sex attraction is not an innate and immutable characteristic and that people who experience this mental disorder can and have changed to a heterosexual orientation. It also recognizes that because homosexuals are not born that way, but develop this disorder based on experiences and environmental conditions, it is preventable, especially among young people who are most vulnerable to recruitment into the homosexual lifestyle.

The Republic of Uganda needs comprehensive and enhanced legislation to protect our cultural, legal, religious, and traditional family values against the attempts of sexual rights activists seeking to impose their values of sexual promiscuity on Uganda.

There is also need to protect our children and youths who are made vulnerable to sexual abuse and deviation as a result of cultural changes, uncensored information technologies, parentless child developmental settings and increasing attempts by homosexuals to raise children in homosexual relationships through adoption, foster care, or otherwise.

2. Defects in the existing law.

This legislation is designed to fill the gaps in the provisions of the constitution of Uganda and the penal code Act by establishing that, in Uganda, marriage is only between a man and a woman and that no other sexual unions or relationships will be recognized by the government.

The Penal Code Act (Cap 20) does not directly address this issue of homosexuality. It instead talks about unnatural offenses under section 145. This section does not specifically talk about homosexuality as an offense. It does not even have any reference to homosexuality. Not surprisingly the Act does not have a definition for homosexuality in the definition section.

The Penal Code Act does not explicitly address the issue of same sex unions and gender identity disorders which are damaging the social fabric of our nation at an alarming rate. There are no provisions in the Penal Code Act panelizing the procurement, promotion, disseminating literature and other forms of report for the offenses of homosexuality hence the need for legislation to provide for charging, investigating, prosecuting, convicting and sentencing of offenders on the above law. There is need for equal treatment of man and woman before the law in regard to homosexual offenses.

This legislation comes to complement and supplement the provisions of the Constitution of Uganda and the Penal Code Act by not only criminalizing same sex marriages but same -sex sexual acts and other related acts.

3.1. The objectives of the Bill

The objectives of the Bill are:

(a) To protect marriage as that only between a man and a woman in Uganda;

(b) To prohibit homosexual behavior and related practices in Uganda as they constitute a threat to the traditional family;

(c) To safeguard the health of Ugandan citizens from the negative effects of homosexuality and related practices;

(d) To establish progressive legislation protective of the traditional family that can serve as a model for other countries;

(e) To prohibit ratification of any international treaties, conventions, protocols and declarations which are contrary or inconsistent with the provisions of this Act;

(f) To ensure that no international instruments to which Uganda is already a party can be interpreted or applied in Uganda in a way that was never intended at the time the document was created;

(e) To withdraw from any international agreements to which Uganda already is a party, or file reservations to them, which are re-interpreted to include protection for homosexual behavior, or that promote same-sex marriage, or that call for the promotion or teaching about homosexuality as being healthy, normal, or an acceptable lifestyle choice, or that seek to establish sexual behavior, sexual orientation, or gender identity, or sexual minorities as legally protected categories of people; and

(f) To prohibit Uganda from becoming a party to any new international instruments that expressly include protection for homosexual behavior; promote same-sex marriage; call for the promotion or teaching about homosexuality or homosexual relations as being healthy, normal, or an acceptable lifestyle choice; and/or seek to establish sexual behavior, sexual orientation, gender identity or sexual minorities as legally protected categories of people

3.2. Part 1 of the Bill incorporating clauses 1 and 2 provides for Preliminary matters relating to commencement and Interpretation of the words and phrases used in the Bill

3.3. Part II of the Bill incorporating clause 3 to clause 6 prohibits homosexuality and related practices by introducing the offences of engaging in homosexuality, and the penalties of imprisonment upon conviction. This part also creates offences and penalties for acts that promote homosexuality, failure to report the offence and impose a duty on the Community to report Suspected Cases of homosexuality.

3.4. Part III of the Bill incorporating of clause 7 to clauses 9 provides for the jurisdiction of Ugandan Courts in Case of Homosexuality, including extra territorial Jurisdiction.

3.5. Part IV of the Bill incorporating clauses 10 and 11 provides for miscellaneous provisions on International Treaties, Protocols, Declarations and Conventions and the Minister to make regulations to give effect to the Act.

4. Schedule 1 of the Bill gives the value of the currency.

Hon. David Bahati
MP, Ndorwa County West
Kabale

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(The Rest...)

ARRANGEMENT OF CLAUSES

PART I -PRELIMINARY

Clause.

1. Commencement
2. Interpretation

PART II - PROHIBITION OF HOMOSEXUALITY

3. Offence of Homosexuality
4. Aggravated Homosexuality
5. Promoting Homosexuality
6. Failure to report offence

PART III - JURISDICTION

7. Jurisdiction
8. Extra - territorial Jurisdiction
9. Extradition

PARTIV - MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS

10. International treaties
11. Regulations

Schedule 1

Currency point.

PART I - PRELIMINARY

1 - Commencement

This Act shall come into force upon publication in the Gazette.

2 - Interpretation

In this Act, unless the Context otherwise requires -

"Gender" means male or female;

"Homosexuality" means same gender or same sex sexual acts;

"Homosexual" means a person who engages or attempts to engage in same gender sexual activity.

"Minister" means the Minister responsible for Ethics and Integrity.

"Sexual act" means -

(a) Stimulation or penetration of a vagina or mouth or anus or any part of the body, however slight of any person by a sexual organ;

(b) The use of any object or organ by a person on another person's sexual organ or anus or mouth;

"Sexual organ" means-a vagina or penis.

PART II: PROHIBITION OF HOMOSEXUALITY AND RELATED PRACTICES

3. Prohibition of homosexuality

(1) Homosexuality is prohibited.

(2) Any person who engages in homosexuality contrary to sub-section (1) commits an offense and on conviction is liable to a fine not exceeding 500 currency points or imprisonment not exceeding 10 years or both.

4. Aggravated homosexuality

(1) Any person who commits the offense mentioned in section 3 above with another person who is below the age of 18 years in any of the circumstances specified in sub-section (2) of this section commits the offense and on conviction is liable to suffer death.

(2) The circumstances referred to in sub-section (1) are as follows: -

(a) Where the person against whom the offense is committed is below the age of 14;

(b) Where the offender is infected with HIV;

(c) Where the offender is a parent or guardian or a person in authority over, the person against whom the offense is committed;

(d) Where the victim of the offense is a person with disability; or

(e) Where the offender is a serial offender.

(3) Any person who attempts to commit the offense of homosexuality with another person below 18 years in any of the circumstances specifies in sub-section (2), commits an offense and is liable on conviction to imprisonment for life.

(4) Where a person is charged with the offense under this section, that person shall undergo a medical examination to ascertain his or her HIV status.

(5) Any person who without the consent of an adult victim being under their authority or not commits the offense mentioned in this section

5. Promotion of homosexuality

(1) Any person who,

(a) Participates in production, trafficking, procuring, marketing, broadcasting, disseminating, publishing homosexual materials;

(b) Funds or sponsors homosexuality and related activities

(c) Offers premises and other fixed or movable assets

(d) Uses electronic devices which include internet, films, mobile phone and

(f) Who acts as an accomplice or attempts to legitimize or in any way abets homosexuality and related practices

Commits an offense and on conviction is liable to a fine of five thousand currency points or imprisonment of at least five years or both.

(2) Where the offender is a corporate body or a business or an association or a Non-governmental organization conviction its Certificate of Registration shall be cancelled and the Director(s) or proprietors or promoter(s) shall be criminally liable.

6. Failure to report the offense

Any person who being aware of the commission of any offense under this Act omits to report the offense to the relevant authorities within 24 hours commits an offense and on conviction is liable to a fine not exceeding five hundred currency points or imprisonment not exceeding six months year.

PART IV -JURISDICTION

7. Jurisdiction.

Save for aggravated homosexuality which shall be tried by the High Court, other offenses under this Act shall be tried by the Magistrates Court.

8. Extra - Territorial Jurisdiction.

This Act shall apply to offences Committed outside Uganda Where-

(1) A person who, while being a citizen of, or permanently residing in Uganda, Commits an act Outside Uganda, which act would Constitute an offence had it been Committed in Uganda.

(2) The offence was committed partly outside and or partly in Uganda.

9. Extradition.

A person charged with offence under this Act shall be liable to extradition under the existing Extradition laws.

PART V-MISCELLANEOUS

10. Nullification of inconsistent International treaties, protocols, declarations and conventions.

(1). Any international legal instrument whose provisions are contradictory to the spirit and provisions enshrined in this Act, are null and void to the extent of their inconsistency.

(2). The foreign definitions of "sexual orientation", "sexual rights", "sexual minorities", "gender identity" shall not be used in anyway to legitimize homosexuality, gender identity disorders and related practices in Uganda.

11. Regulations.

The Minister may by statutory instrument make regulations to effect implementation of the provisions of this Act, and Promote the objects of this Act.

SCHEDULE 1

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At 12/22/09 06:34 AM, WolvenBear wrote: Hey, write whatever in it that makes you feel good. It doesn't say what you claim, as I showed above.

I've posted the bill in its entirety.
Read it please.

It is c-l-e-a-r-l-y homophobic.
Hell, you don't need to read entirely. You can read the first part.

And yes, it is homophobic because 1.) AIDS promoted exclusively through queer people, 2.) that homosexual recruit people, 3.) that families are threatened (although, nobody knows how exactly homosexuals threaten families).

It seeks to eliminate whatever gay rights Uganda has under the pretense that it will help curb the AIDS problem.

(And really, the AIDS clause in the bill is just a sentence-- everything else about the bill is about curtailing gay rights.)

If you're gay, they will try to either 1.) kill you, or 2.) do medical experiments to you.
If you know somebody gay and you don't tell you, then you go to jail.

I support any means to curb AIDS. My husband has HIV, and I know what's the face of this disease. But this bill doesn't help AIDS. It just makes the gay community as the scape goates.

And if you read the bill, you will find out that there isn't any clauses talking about straight people purposely spreading AIDS to healthy individuals.

Talk about ignorance.

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At 12/22/09 12:49 PM, KeithHybrid wrote: Oh, who gives a damn about you? It's obvious you're just a bigot.

It's clear you're just an idiot.

At 12/22/09 01:00 PM, LordJaric wrote: Um no, simply having HIV should not be an automatic death sentence, maybe if the person starts spreading it to as many people as they can, but not just for having it.

Good gravy, can no one read?

No one is given the death sentence for having AIDS. They're given the death sentence for passing it on.

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So, based on the fact that you actually posted the bill, we can conclude you're lying and hoping no one reads it. Because:

At 12/22/09 06:57 PM, fli wrote: (2) Any person who engages in homosexuality contrary to sub-section (1) commits an offense and on conviction is liable to a fine not exceeding 500 currency points or imprisonment not exceeding 10 years or both.

So in other words, being gay ISNT a death sentence, and is simply fineable?

And the ONLY criteria for death are exact what I said above.

Moreover, no such provision exists to murder people who don't report gays.

Did you really expect me not to read ad quote it?

Fool.

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Oh, and the failure to report thing...

6. Failure to report the offense

Any person who being aware of the commission of any offense under this Act omits to report the offense to the relevant authorities within 24 hours commits an offense and on conviction is liable to a fine not exceeding five hundred currency points or imprisonment not exceeding six months year.

So, you've lied about homosexuality being a capital offense. You've lied about not reporting it being a capital offense. So now you want to play this card?

At 12/22/09 07:12 PM, fli wrote: It is c-l-e-a-r-l-y homophobic.
Hell, you don't need to read entirely. You can read the first part.

Even if your ridiculous view of homophobia was correct, the rest isn't. It DOESN'T call for the execution of gays, nor does it call for the execution of non-compliant witnesses.

And yes, it is homophobic because 1.) AIDS promoted exclusively through queer people, 2.) that homosexual recruit people, 3.) that families are threatened (although, nobody knows how exactly homosexuals threaten families).

YAAAAWN.

So, being completely wrong on the murder of queer people, we move to lesser grounds. Sorry, don't care.
You're trying to mask your lies in appeal to empathy.

Talk about ignorance.

I'm sorry, who claimed it'd kill witnesses to gay sex? Yourself?

; This bill says that if you're any sort of queer... you're dead.
If you know or possibly know a queer and not report it... you're probably dead too.
No exceptions.

Who is wrong? Yourself?

Where do you get off lecturing me? You're lying your ass off and now that you're caught in it, you're trying to change the terms. Just because you posted it, then ACTUALLY read it for the first time yourself, doesn't mean you hol any high ground on people who knew what it said all along.

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At 12/18/09 05:15 PM, Fyndir wrote:

At 12/18/09 02:46 PM, ThePretenders wrote: concerned by the internal affairs of a distant land which they have no stake in

Except for the massive amount of financial aid they receive every year, which gives us plenty of stake.

You know full well that aid is useless in promoting economic growth and all they do is spend their aid on the military instead of health or education. I find it ironic that the British brought in the laws against sodomy when they were evangelising the local population and now they turned around and state that there's nothing wrong with homosexuality and it's perfectly normal. Good job UK!

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(1) Any person who commits the offense mentioned in section 3 above with another person who is below the age of 18 years in any of the circumstances specified in sub-section (2) of this section commits the offense and on conviction is liable to suffer death.

There is more before and after this paragraph.
But... to emphasize the point...
"IS LIABLE TO SUFFER DEATH"

Although, now reading this more carefully, it's a very specific and broad clause. I feel better that being gay doesn't qualify an instant death penalty. (Although, what do people do when it's between two underage teenagers?)

I'll give you that point, but I get a point too because THERE IS a clause about killing gay people.

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At 12/23/09 02:52 PM, fli wrote: Although, now reading this more carefully, it's a very specific and broad clause. I feel better that being gay doesn't qualify an instant death penalty. (Although, what do people do when it's between two underage teenagers?)

I'll give you that point, but I get a point too because THERE IS a clause about killing gay people.

Well, getting caught more than once can still lead to execution. Serial offenders may suffer death penalty.

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Oh, who gives a damn about you? It's obvious you're just a bigot.
It's clear you're just an idiot.

Well...I guess people have stooped lower in arguments in the "general" BBS, but this is still kind of disappointing.

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Eh I don't care man. I never even heard of a gay black man before. Even then I'd imagine they'd be annoying.

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At 12/25/09 02:14 AM, Masterzakk wrote: Eh I don't care man. I never even heard of a gay black man before

What what?

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At 12/25/09 03:44 AM, Bacchanalian wrote: What what?

OH yeah Lulz. anyways I was just kidding my political peoples! Uganda does what it does. America isn't the culture police, even though some people sometimes think it is.