People of the General Forum, is it right for parents to force religion upon young children, starting almost directly after their birth?
Beginning at baptism for the Christian faith, babies are forced into a religion without even understanding it. Then, for years and years, they are brought to Church services, left with a biased view on life, religion, and even logic. They are told that some big, all knowing man in the clouds watches over them at all times, protecting them and judging them. They are told that if they live their life well, they will reach salvation. Heaven is believed to be a paradise, and children imagine constant time playing with their friends, an endless supply of toys, and an all-sugar diet. They are told that any bad deeds they commit can be wiped away through confession, and forgiven by said all-seeing deity.
Religion appeals to children's sense of imagination and takes advantage of their innocence and gullibility, bending them and morphing them in whichever ways the Church feels necessary.
Tell a child almost anything, and they'll believe you. A fat man delivering presents on a sleigh powered by Christmas spirit and flying reindeer? It also appeals to their curiosity and imagination. You can even tell a kid that vegetables are truly evil gremlins created by corrupt corporations to try and kill you, and they won't touch a carrot for years.
So, isn't it only right that parents wait, at least until the child is 13 or 14, to commit them to silly religious beliefs? Shouldn't children have the RIGHT to deny their parents' faith, and formulate their own beliefs?
Try telling someone of 14 years of age, who has had no previous religious exposure, all those silly things you could trick them into believing at 4 years old. No flying man delivering presents, that's absurd. Vegetables aren't alive, and they might even taste good. And of course, no all-powerful deity watching over society.
Though raised in a semi-religious manner (My mom would take my sister and I to Church every Sunday when we were little), I was lucky enough to have been intelligent enough to denounce Catholicism for its lies and corrupt ways, as well as the faults and deceptions in other faiths. Many people, however, are not so lucky. They are stuck with religious beliefs, and don't have the ingenuity to question them.
So, Newgrounds, what is your opinion on the matter?
It's not brainwashing.
It's called 'Raising children with your own morals'.
Every parent teaches their children what they themselves believe. In fact, let's compare religion to sports. Because generally most fathers will attempt to get their children supporting the same teams that they follow. Is that brainwashing? No, it's suggestion and it works well, the same as with religion.
[I've been wandering round but I still come back to you]
To be honest people decide what they believe.
I know plenty of people who were born into Christian families that are no longer Christians. Any level of brainwashing is minute. People can think for themselves. At one time the whole of America was Christians but the children didn't necessarily believe the same things as their parents. Things change.
"To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all."
- Oscar Wilde
At 12/13/09 09:39 AM, Gagsy wrote: It's called 'Raising children with your own beliefs'.
Fix'd.
This signature makes use of various clichés and/or 'emotional' lyrics/quotes, hopefully it makes me appear deep.
You're right. Let's wait until they're at least 14 or 15 to teach them anything, because all learning is brainwashing. Oh, but wait, they won't know anything and will have spend so many of their formative years doing nothing constructive and feeling entirely isolated from the lack of meaningful interaction between themselves, their family, and any peers they happen to be lucky enough to encounter that they won't even take to learning anything, or will be guarenteed to burden their family until they're at least 30.
... nah.
At 12/13/09 09:44 AM, Oppugnant wrote:At 12/13/09 09:39 AM, Gagsy wrote: It's called 'Raising children with your own beliefs'.Fix'd.
Morals can equal beliefs. Certainly mine do as I'm lacking in the faith department.
Either way, it's just about raising children as best a parent can, and that usually means teaching them what they themselves know and believe.
[I've been wandering round but I still come back to you]
At 12/13/09 09:39 AM, Gagsy wrote: It's not brainwashing.
brain%u22C5wash%u22C5ing
- Noun
Any method of controlled systematic indoctrination, esp. one based on repetition or confusion
It's called 'Raising children with your own morals'.
Morals != Religion
Morals are rules regarding conduct and principles. Morals don't involve all-powerful deities. I have no problem with parents teaching children that they should behave, not kill people, etc. Teaching them religion is crossing the line.
Every parent teaches their children what they themselves believe. In fact, let's compare religion to sports. Because generally most fathers will attempt to get their children supporting the same teams that they follow. Is that brainwashing? No, it's suggestion and it works well, the same as with religion.
Having a favorite sports team doesn't affect the way your life is run. You're taking one thing I said--about brainwashing--out of context, and applying it to your weak argument. I don't even think you read my entire post. Most likely, you read the thread title, were offended, then decided to argue aimlessly.
15 is the age at which children could start being taught about religion under Lenin's communist government.
"To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all."
- Oscar Wilde
At 12/13/09 09:49 AM, Archon68 wrote:
Having a favorite sports team doesn't affect the way your life is run. You're taking one thing I said--about brainwashing--out of context, and applying it to your weak argument. I don't even think you read my entire post. Most likely, you read the thread title, were offended, then decided to argue aimlessly.
Oh if you knew some of the guys I'd did, you'd know that yes sports can indeed affect your life, even if you're just viewing it through a television screen,
Offended? I don't even believe in a God, I just think it's rich to call 'teaching' 'brainwashing' which is what you're doing. Kids have to learn as they grow and what they learn is up to their parents.
[I've been wandering round but I still come back to you]
At 12/13/09 09:47 AM, Evark wrote: You're right. Let's wait until they're at least 14 or 15 to teach them anything, because all learning is brainwashing. Oh, but wait, they won't know anything and will have spend so many of their formative years doing nothing constructive and feeling entirely isolated from the lack of meaningful interaction between themselves, their family, and any peers they happen to be lucky enough to encounter that they won't even take to learning anything, or will be guarenteed to burden their family until they're at least 30.
... nah.
Like Gagsy, you're ignoring the bulk of my post. You're taking me to be an Atheist extremist, which I am not. I'm simply stating that children have the right to decide their faith, and parents should not be allowed to control that.
I am not, as you implied, saying that children should be completely isolated from their parents. They should be taught morals, not religious beliefs.
You moderators (and you, Gagsy) should really read before posting, as you are so compelled to ban everyone else for not doing. You're generalizing the rest of Newgrounds and are blinded by your apparent superiority, and that's not right. You must realize that some of us are intelligent people.
Guys everyone needs a belief system and a set of morals to live by, Look up Emile Durkheim and his social theory about religion, about how it maintains social order and stability.
At 12/13/09 09:58 AM, Lunaful wrote: Guys everyone needs a belief system and a set of morals to live by, Look up Emile Durkheim and his social theory about religion, about how it maintains social order and stability.
It's not brainwashing. Since I was born my parents take me to the catolic celebrations. Nowadays I'm atheist, but they don't know. They force me to go and learn, but no problem. In the future, I'll be atheist.
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At 12/13/09 09:53 AM, Gagsy wrote: Oh if you knew some of the guys I'd did, you'd know that yes sports can indeed affect your life, even if you're just viewing it through a television screen,
But surely it isn't as influential as religion is. Christianity has affected more people than the Red Sox.
Offended? I don't even believe in a God, I just think it's rich to call 'teaching' 'brainwashing' which is what you're doing. Kids have to learn as they grow and what they learn is up to their parents.
Their parents shouldn't have the right to trick them with religion. They should be taught morals, and life skills, but religion is not necessary for life. It's an extra belief that many people have, not because they have thought it out for themselves, but because as a child they were forced into it.
And yes, religion is a form of brainwashing. The repetitive Church services and the fact that it is bashed into their minds for years and years makes it so.
At 12/13/09 09:37 AM, Archon68 wrote:
So, Newgrounds, what is your opinion on the matter?
You're a twat, that's my opinion
I disagree with the lack of hedgehog in this thread.
At 12/13/09 10:09 AM, Mewtwig wrote:At 12/13/09 09:37 AM, Archon68 wrote:So, Newgrounds, what is your opinion on the matter?You're a twat, that's my opinion
If you're not going to contribute to the conversation then please leave. I don't wish to start a flame war, but instead have a healthy debate. If you feel offended, as I can assume, then defend your opinion with some evidence, rather than antagonizing me for bringing up a valid argument.
Your argument is subjective. From a religious point of view, why should the kids be brainwashed into thinking that there is no God at such an early age? Kids are raised up with the morals and beliefs of their parents. Some parents don't believe in God, other do and so they raise their children accordingly.
If the kid's not retarded he'll start thinking about what he's been taught when he grows up, then he can decide what's true and what's not. You can either tell the kid that there is a God or no God. You can't say I don't know. (Well you could, as in being an agnostic, but then you didn't give the child the answer, and so he'll search for one, with his limited knowledge and experience most likely finding the wrong one)
At 12/13/09 10:34 AM, 4urentertainment wrote: Your argument is subjective. From a religious point of view, why should the kids be brainwashed into thinking that there is no God at such an early age?
They don't smash it into the kids' head that there is no God, either. The child just wouldn't be exposed to any religious beliefs until a more mature age. At that point, they can decide for themselves what they want to believe.
It's only the wrong thing to do if religion is definitely wrong. Letting the child choose for themselves would be a bad idea, because any kid is going to choose staying in bed on a Sunday morning over going to church, regardless of what they will come to believe.
I don't get your point about Santa though. When a child reaches a certain age, he finds out that Santa doesn't exist, changing his views drastically. Why can't that happen for a child raised in a religious environment? It's not like every kid keeps those religious views all his life. I've seen just as many people rebel from their religious upbringing and renounce it altogether when they get old enough to make an informed opinion.
So really, when it comes down to it, parents are just doing what they think is best for their child, something parents are famed for doing regardless of how it will actually affect their offspring.
At 12/13/09 09:37 AM, Archon68 wrote: People of the General Forum, is it right for parents to force religion upon young children, starting almost directly after their birth?
Beginning at baptism for the Christian faith, babies are forced into a religion without even understanding it.
You sure are right, Archon, I wish I wasn't raised moderatly Catholic. Then I wouldn't have had to go through all that brain wash about "helping people" and morality. Maybe, just maybe without the Church in my life I could have grown up to be a smug, self-loathing jackass with to appreciation for anyone else.
And then, only then would I be smug enough to start pushing my lack of beliefs on those who had been raised religiously. After all, I wouldn't give half a damn about their views because they would be the "brain washed" sheeple that are singlehandedly bringing our society to a screeching halt.
Plus, without the threat of Hell or any other type of significant punishment I would be free to pillage, rape, and just destroy property at my free will. And so would everyone else. All those criminals who end up getting suckered into the trap of religion and learn to control their violent tendencies would be free to repeat themselves and not think twice about it.
Is it right to force morality in our kids? Is it right to force our kids to learn anything? I've heard at school (which I was forced to attend as a youth) about this mystical island called "Japan", but I've never seen it. The only way I know it exists is through the words of others. Hell, dark matter doesn't have any proof of its existence either, yet it is unquestioningly added to scientific text.
... I was lucky enough to have been intelligent enough to denounce Catholicism for its lies and corrupt ways, as well as the faults and deceptions in other faiths. Many people, however, are not so lucky. They are stuck with religious beliefs, and don't have the ingenuity to question them.
Why? Why is this always the case.
It's always "I was smart enough to get out", as if religion is a cult following of flesh-eating extremists that could shorten your life span. I haven't gone to Church in years, but I don't go around holding myself above everyone who does. After all, forcing your lack of beliefs is the same thing as forcing your beliefs in the first place.
So, Newgrounds, what is your opinion on the matter?
Damn it's too early to be on the BBS. I can't believe I just typed all this shit. Lmao.
At 12/13/09 10:43 AM, Archon68 wrote:At 12/13/09 10:34 AM, 4urentertainment wrote: Your argument is subjective. From a religious point of view, why should the kids be brainwashed into thinking that there is no God at such an early age?They don't smash it into the kids' head that there is no God, either. The child just wouldn't be exposed to any religious beliefs until a more mature age. At that point, they can decide for themselves what they want to believe.
Just as there are extremist religious people, there are extremist atheists. You can't keep away such religious beliefs from children. They will ask that question at some point or another, and you'd be forced to answer.
But why wait so long to teach your children? Why wait to educate them about corrupt religions? A young child is like an empty glass. If you don't fill it with what you want, it will be filled sooner or later with something else. If you don't educate your children, they might end up going on an entirely different path because of other people's influence.
It's just like teaching children morals. Only difference is that most morals are universally agreed upon. You'd teach your kid not to steal while he's young, so that he doesn't grow up a thief. You'd smash the idea that stealing is very wrong into their brains. You'd brainwash them into believing that. When some other culture could be totally okay with the idea. Same goes for religions, except there is huge dispute about it. You teach your children what you know, when they grow up, they will question this due to all the dispute about it.
At 12/13/09 09:37 AM, Archon68 wrote:
Religion appeals to children's sense of imagination and takes advantage of their innocence and gullibility, bending them and morphing them in whichever ways the Church feels necessary.
I couldn't agree more, But I do understand your point, how are you supposed to live up to Freedom of religion if it's always forced down your throat? Although im not in great terms with religion, gods, etc. Because im so tired of hearing stupid idiots forcing their religion on people. Take the christian missionaries for example, Sure they go to other countries and help feed them but they also tell the people they feed it was "THEIR" god that made them go all the way down there. I just wonder does a simple thought of " they just want to be helped not preached to?" come into mind anywhere at all? I think before trying to convert someone to your religion, you might want to take a minute and think. What if they have a rel;igion of their own?
The main reason why I remain atheist is back in Africa during my Jr. Marines days, I fell into a chasm and broke my leg. Then this religious asshat tried to tell me It was god who helped me, when really it was my squad that saved my ass. I mean how can you try and take credit for something that other people do then say It was someone else, who saved your ass?
At 12/13/09 09:47 AM, Evark wrote: You're right. Let's wait until they're at least 14 or 15 to teach them anything, because all learning is brainwashing. Oh, but wait, they won't know anything and will have spend so many of their formative years doing nothing constructive and feeling entirely isolated from the lack of meaningful interaction between themselves, their family, and any peers they happen to be lucky enough to encounter that they won't even take to learning anything, or will be guarenteed to burden their family until they're at least 30.
... nah.
Yeah, because religion is the only kind of sensible teaching, bro.
And he isn't saying all learning is brainwashing, he's saying a biased worldview focused around a giant floating cloud man is stupid.
It's America's Hat!
At 12/13/09 09:47 AM, Evark wrote: You're right. Let's wait until they're at least 14 or 15 to teach them anything, because all learning is brainwashing.
>IMPLYING RELIGION TEACHES ANYTHING USEFUL.
lol you crack me up.
Douchey opinionated signature goes here
At 12/13/09 11:15 AM, junkietomato wrote:At 12/13/09 09:47 AM, Evark wrote: You're right. Let's wait until they're at least 14 or 15 to teach them anything, because all learning is brainwashing.>IMPLYING RELIGION TEACHES ANYTHING USEFUL.
lol you crack me up.
Yeah, you're right. When are we ever going to user all these morals in real life eh?
At 12/13/09 11:17 AM, 4urentertainment wrote:
Yeah, you're right. When are we ever going to user all these morals in real life eh?
Only idiots need to fear an imaginary sky wizard to respect basic rules of society.
Douchey opinionated signature goes here
At 12/13/09 09:49 AM, Archon68 wrote:At 12/13/09 09:39 AM, Gagsy wrote: It's not brainwashing.brain%u22C5wash%u22C5ing
- Noun
Any method of controlled systematic indoctrination, esp. one based on repetition or confusion
Morals != Religion
It's called 'Raising children with your own morals'.
Morals are rules regarding conduct and principles. Morals don't involve all-powerful deities. I have no problem with parents teaching children that they should behave, not kill people, etc. Teaching them religion is crossing the line.
You're a fucking idiot. Maybe if you even bothered to learn a damn thing about any given religion, you'd have understood that the Bible, the Jew Bible, the Koran, etc etc, are all just stories about how to live your life. All these parents are doing by introducing a religion to their kid is trying to get them to be respectful, be honest, be good people, etc. Religion on it's own hasnt killed a single person, and to be honest, religion has a potential to be a fantastic thing, except extremists and fundamentalists keep fucking it up.
Every parent teaches their children what they themselves believe. In fact, let's compare religion to sports. Because generally most fathers will attempt to get their children supporting the same teams that they follow. Is that brainwashing? No, it's suggestion and it works well, the same as with religion.
That's an awful comparison.
Who you like as a sports team has absolutely no relevancy to the effects of a religion on a childs mind.
At 12/13/09 09:58 AM, Lunaful wrote: Guys everyone needs a belief system and a set of morals to live by, Look up Emile Durkheim and his social theory about religion, about how it maintains social order and stability.
Ha! Ha! Ha!
Finally, a thread I can really take my chances with. I'll enjoy the rapid classifying here, I know it, and the conviction vs ethnic arguments that's sure to run rampant. Just wait, its bound to happen. And I'm ready to explode when it does.
At 12/13/09 11:22 AM, junkietomato wrote:At 12/13/09 11:17 AM, 4urentertainment wrote:Yeah, you're right. When are we ever going to user all these morals in real life eh?Only idiots need to fear an imaginary sky wizard to respect basic rules of society.
Oh lookit, someone else who thinks he's a big bad atheist.
Shut the fuck up.
At 12/13/09 11:15 AM, junkietomato wrote: >IMPLYING RELIGION TEACHES ANYTHING USEFUL.
lol you crack me up.
Did you just use fucking 4chan quotes on the BBS.
At 12/13/09 11:10 AM, AnasaziTribal wrote: Yeah, because religion is the only kind of sensible teaching, bro.
And he isn't saying all learning is brainwashing, he's saying a biased worldview focused around a giant floating cloud man is stupid.
Through your days you've been taught what we as humans have come to understand about our relative world. You've been taught what others have come to conclude. You've been taught that a "giant floating cloud man is stupid" is an impossibility.
You've been brainwashed just as much as anyone else.
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