Regarding Legality of Game Remixes

[Weveran]

This is a question that I have been wondering about for quite awhile with no clear cut answer. I am attempting to write a paper on this topic because I find that it needs to be said. I am wondering what the law says about making a remix or a straight-up tweaked version of a video game song that already exists. We all know that there are numerous submissions on the Audio Portal from people who have recreated the original Mario theme. Isn't that copyright violation? If real artists can be sued for writing songs that use the same notes (and melody) of another artist's song, then how come we can do it here on NG?. If video game soundtracks can be sold for money, what makes them any less protected than 'traditional' music. I want to hear your opinions, and if anyone has knowledge of any cases or lawsuits that have happened in the past on this topic it would be appreciated. And yes, I have already researched this topic to some degree with no yield.

[Chronamut]

in the end noone really cares if someone replicates the mario theme on newgrounds.

[Calamaistr]

At 11/30/09 01:28 PM, Chronamut wrote: in the end noone really cares if someone replicates the mario theme on newgrounds.

Yea and some people dont even recognice any of the mario theme because theyve only played mario on the wii.

[nathanallenpinard]

Per US copyright law covers are allowed even without permission, as long as the royalties are paid.

Re-arranging something is a derivative work, so yes it still is the same copyright, but also is an additional copyright due to your recreation of it. I'm not sure how that would work in NG honestly. Anything on NG is immediately CC license, giving anyone the right to use it for non-profit (which is not the case with normal copyright law) however, what happens if you upload a cover? That basically says "you can use my cover of someone elses song which was not originally CC to begin with" and it seems fishy at that point.

As far as remixes, truely NG doesn't allow remixes in the definition of the word, which is using original audio and mixing it with your own ideas. Covers, which are almost the exact same arrangement of the original song so it sounds exact are allowed however, or we can call it a re-arranged song, which implements your own ideas but maintains the song and does not use any original audio. (or re-orchestration)

[Chronamut]

I wouldnt worry about it- newgrounds is allowed to use your work for non-profit - if you somehow probit off of it itd be usually pennies anyways - and does nintendo REALLY care if you're making pennies off your own rendition of them ario theme? I doubt it.

[InGenius]

At 11/30/09 04:47 PM, Chronamut wrote: I wouldnt worry about it- newgrounds is allowed to use your work for non-profit - if you somehow probit off of it itd be usually pennies anyways - and does nintendo REALLY care if you're making pennies off your own rendition of them ario theme? I doubt it.

...says a proponent of the anti-sampling crowd. I find it strange how those who are against sampling take blatantly ripping off another composer/producers work so lightly. This debate will rage on and on until the VG music crowd admits that what they do is no more or less evil than sampling 2-5 seconds of a song, cutting it up, and layering other original instruments into the track to create something new.

As for the OP, it's as illegal as any other copyright infringement, which is to say, if you find the Publisher and come to a publishing royalty agreement, it's legal. Otherwise, if it's for non-profit, it's fairly legal. And any other option is simply illegal.

[robothair]

I reviewed a few video game remixes and panned them for being rip-offs - it is made quite clear when you submit audio that it shouldn't be someone else's composition.

The attitude I got back was that everyone does it and I should shut up. My reviews of these tracks were marked as unhelpful by the artists - so if you stand up for newgrounds rules on this issue you get screwed yourself.

Dear moderators, what is the videogame genre on the audio portal actually for? Is it for tunes inspired by or suitable for games? That's what I assumed. Or is it for legally "fishy" remixes?

I've noticed that the flash portal is stuffed full of movies & games using unlicensed tracks by mainstream artists - apparently no one learns anything about copyright issues until their animation is posted on youtube and THEN they get a takedown notice.

[JackRocker]

i've never really understood what's legal and what isn't when it comes to sampling, remixes, etc. some say it's perfectly fine as long as you don't make money off it, others say it's illegal regardless of whether you profit or not and if you do remix and/or sample you'll die and go to hell, others say as long as you get permission, others say that doesn't matter either, and the list of arguements for or against it goes on and on. and it seems to me that whenever a thread with this question comes around it erupts into a giant online gunfight, metaphorically speaking.

i've read about artists who sampled, and yet due to some bullcrap legal loophole got away with it and the original artist got nothing(an example would be Beastie Boys' "Pass the Mic", check the wikipedia page for further info), while other artists sampled and ended up having to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in royalties(Tone Locs' "Wild Thing", containing a portion of "Jamie's Cryin'" by Van Halen, [again, more info on Wikipedia]).

so, i'm not really sure what to think about the copyright laws. it seems like some people are able to get around them, while others just get completely shafted. if anyone on this forum has any answers, or sees any flaws in my statements, please let me know. it may just be that i'm ill-informed.
thanks.

[robothair]

Argument on newgrounds is straightforward - submissions to the audio portal are meant to be completely copyright free so that the flash artists can use them without worrying.

People delude themselves into thinking that videogame themes are a grey area, partly due to the cultural history of videogame remixes going right back to amigas and ataris. That was the early 90s, this is now.

[JackRocker]

thanks man, but i was referring to copyrights in general. NG i think goes above and beyond that to make 100% sure that nobody(themselves included) gets in legal issues. in reality, i think NG is stricter than the copyright laws. but that's really my opinion.

[Cross666]

Just some 2 cents to toss in, My song This is Hyrule, would have been featured in an Xbox Live Arcade game, if the developers had understood that it was a remix of a game melody. Unfortunately the fine print disallowed me from signing the piece over to them, unless of course I told them I had permission to do so from the original owner (someone somewhere in nintendo's corp) Long story short I couldn't even find out who to contact in order to obtain those rights (even with the song being very different from the original piece)

So basically yea you aren't going to get slapped for doing a remix, unless of course it's god awful, but fair warning... don't be overly thrilled if you made a godly piece and then find yourself unable to deliver it to the public without going through a lot of effort to have legitimate ownership of the piece.

[robothair]

Copyright is pretty straightforward - NG is no different.

You can sample or quote if you think you can get away with it, but no major record company or media outlet will put stuff out without clearing samples and obtaining permissions, after a series of expensive lawsuits in the 80s & 90s.

On the other hand no one making noise music or gabba or breakcore cares about mass media exposure so they can just carry on sampling. But when your white label baltimore beat club hit is picked up by a bigger label and licensed for worldwide release the record company will end up spending your "advance" getting the samples cleared or "replayed".

So copyright on NG is the same as copyright anywhere... it isn't much of an issue unless something goes viral and starts earning. At which point, if you soundtracked your movie with a videogame rip off, you may or may not get yo ass sued, depending on whether anyone is bothering looking out for the copyright holder's interests.

[JackRocker]

ok, thanks for clearing all that up. i see what you're saying now.

[nal1200]

At 11/30/09 06:50 PM, Cross666 wrote: Just some 2 cents to toss in, My song This is Hyrule, would have been featured in an Xbox Live Arcade game, if the developers had understood that it was a remix of a game melody.

Either you're full of BS or the creators of the game that were trying to sign the song are complete idiots. The title of the song has the name of the setting for the Legend of Zelda games, and the recurring melody throughout is pretty distinguishable and similar to the original Hyrule fields theme.

Just pointing that out.

[Weveran]

I believe most people misinterpreted my original post. I am not interested in making one of these songs that I am talking about. I am merely polling the user base to find out if there have been any cases or lawsuits that involve this type of situation. Also, as stated above, I want to know what you guys think is the legal difference between music created for a video game and music created for entertainment/radio. This is a paper topic and I am giving around half a page to information extracted from here. Thank you all for your input. :)

[Cross666]

At 12/1/09 02:35 AM, nal1200 wrote:

At 11/30/09 06:50 PM, Cross666 wrote:

Either you're full of BS or the creators of the game that were trying to sign the song are complete idiots. The title of the song has the name of the setting for the Legend of Zelda games

Here's a thought, an indi developer from EU who has not heard of the Legend of Zelda series.

/mind blown.

Just for the record, you CAN touch a video game system without having knowledge of every pop title out there.

[EmperorCharlemagne]

If you look to a site like OCremix.org (THE game remixing site), you can find the answer's to your questions.

That site gets nods from the video-game press (and video-game composers) for the work people do remixing popular themes, and no one levies lawsuits against them.

That's because every song on OCRemix is non-profit and free for download. Therefore, the remixes are just that: loving fan creations.

If the site tried to profit off of its (amazing) remixes, I'd imagine some legal difficulties. But since that's not the case, they continue to do what they can.

If you haven't been to www.ocremix.org, I would recommend you doing so. Great music there, usually 600x better than any game remix the AP can churn out.

[Khuskan]

Use your own judgement. Even if you remake a video game track from scratch, the intellectual copyright holders could DCMA your ass, but that's pretty rare.

Video game covers are free publicity for them, who cares if you make a few pennies off adshare.

[InGenius]

Difference between OCRemix.org and Audio Portal:

Small sidebar ad plus bottombar ad below all user comments on OCRemix.org

Topbar, bottombar, and sidebar ads, plus ads by Google on NewGrounds

Reason this matters:

Ad revenue makes the music on a page "for profit".

So, if we weigh the two sites we note that NG is setup to produce twice the click-thru potential, even if it's not producing twice the revenue. On the radar of "making a buck off other people", NG is higher on the list than OCRemix is, thus the game companies might not be quite as happy to see their music on NG. Also, with NG's large, dedicated userbase and history amongst flash consumers, versus OCRemix's dedication solely to the target audience of VG music remixers, as well as NG's Flash authors still continuing to be allowed to use copywritten music in flash games and videos, the same game companies and their lawyers might think twice about endorsing a site which looks, at least to an outsider, to be a den of thieves wanting to capitalize on others' hard work.

So, there we stand. NG, for all of it's posturing with it's audio submission rules, only ever wields those rules against samplers and rarely says even a peep against midi rips, covers, remixes, or flash authors ripping off mainstream music, or using sprites from games which are protected under trademark and copyright laws, in most cases. Yet all of those are equally illegal.

[Reaper93]

Legally speaking, covers and remixing done without sampling are both ambiguously legal, even when done for nonprofit causes. It might as well vary based on phase of the moon for all the different things I've heard.

In terms of realistically speaking? Not many people will care, and if they do care, they will generally issue a cease and desist order before suing you.

[nathanallenpinard]

Legally speaking, covers and remixing done without sampling are both ambiguously legal, even when done for nonprofit causes.

Absolutely true. Except when a profit is made they are required to send royalties to ASCAP/BMI