Parasitic Humanoids

[Grimm51]

I'm troubled by the shocking amount of parasitic people today. Its no longer the land of the free, home of the brave. Its just a pit of snakes. Todays motto is prosperity through self-interest, and everyone one else be damned. People prey on the less fortunate, the sympathetic, the honest people. The only thing that this mind-set is going to bring is more greed, more anger, and more hatred. Violence begets violence, and greed is no different. Life is so fucked up now. The rich have destroyed everything in life, all for another buck. How rich do you have to be to realize that you don't need anymore damn money? Every day I live, I see these atrocities happen, and nothing is done about them. I am constantly reminded that kindness brings you exploitation and that you must compete with your fellow man to survive in this land of overabundance and excess. Life is next to meaningless now. I hope the world ends soon, because at the rate we are going, there will no longer be a society of people. Just a society of consumers. Thats all we are anyway. Everyday, when you first wake up until you go to sleep again, you are constantly bombarded with advertisements, (Buy my shit! Its better than THEIR shit! And cheaper too!) I hate it.

And you know what sucks? You have to have money. So, you get a shitty job, say, working at a factory making I pods. Every two weeks, you get your measly check, and hopefully have enough for rent, food, and gas to get back to work for the next two weeks. They say that college is the only way to make more money. Get an education. You pay $40,000 to have some bitter old man shovel his hatred at society down your throat, just so you can maybe be able to live decently. To be a fucking consumer. Life is so twisted now.

We are being reminded that human nature does not evolve with the advancements of civilization. This is oppression, and it is propaganda. We are being brainwashed, we are being reminded that the self revolves around basic need without consideration to others, and that reason and logic is only a byproduct of our evolution. No one says that human nature is to reason and to spread knowledge. They all say it is in our nature to oppress and eliminate those who bring harm to the self. I believe it is human nature to adapt to the times and to break away from preconceived notions of "nature". These notions of people being primitive and predatory in nature only exist today because those who want to maintain power use it as a tool to justify the means to their ends.

I say it's the parasites of our society that need to be exploited and purged. Those with good intentions have the ultimate power when they gain the will to rise against. What this world needs is more leadership by example, a ripple effect of clarity and perspective. Almost all who submit to these ideologies of dog eat dog, oppress and prosper are in fact being exploited themselves.

Fuck them.

What do you all think?

[Warforger]

Your a Communist in other words?

[SadisticMonkey]

At 11/27/09 03:24 AM, Grimm51 wrote: I'm troubled by the shocking amount of parasitic people today. Its no longer the land of the free, home of the brave. Its just a pit of snakes. Todays motto is prosperity through self-interest, and everyone one else be damned.

Being ABLE to become prosperous is what makes America home of the free.

And as for the brave, do you have any idea of the amount of risk involved with being an entrepreneur, a start up business owner or a venture capitalist?
Do you have any idea how important these people are to society?

People prey on the less fortunate, the sympathetic, the honest people. The only thing that this mind-set is going to bring is more greed, more anger, and more hatred. Violence begets violence, and greed is no different. Life is so fucked up now.

Blah blah blah show me some examples

The rich have destroyed everything in life, all for another buck.

Oh my god, shut your god damned much you moronic bleeding heart.

The rich are the productive people in society.

Without the rich, there would be far fewer jobs than there is today,

How rich do you have to be to realize that you don't need anymore damn money?

The rich having and making mroe money is a GOOD thing. More money ---> more Jobs

Some rich guy invests in a new business, business grows and oh hey look they need employees now.

So some rich CEO is rich enough to build a dozen mansions, but guess what, he has to construction workers and tradesmen to build them for him.

Every day I live, I see these atrocities happen, and nothing is done about them. I am constantly reminded that kindness brings you exploitation and that you must compete with your fellow man to survive

Can't you see this is a good thing? Competition is what drives innovation.

"Man's ego is the fountainhead of human progress."

And what, you don't think people should have to work hard to get somewhere in life? Do you want the government to provide everything to you on a platter?

Society gets NOWHERE with that kind of thinking.

in this land of overabundance and excess.

Being the most prosperous society in history is a GOOD thing.

Life is next to meaningless now.

How about you mind your own goddamned business, eh?

If people want to "waste" their lives seeking profit, then by all means let them, and pursue your own non-materialistic desires.

Everyday, when you first wake up until you go to sleep again, you are constantly bombarded with advertisements, (Buy my shit! Its better than THEIR shit! And cheaper too!) I hate it.

Oh boo fucking hoo.

If there were no advertisements, tehre would be practically no tv, radio or internet.

You think Tom Fulp maintains newgrounds for the sake of his its users? Of course not, he does it to attract advertisers and hence make profit.

This is a GOOD THING though because he is constantly driven to improve newgrounds and satisfy its users in order to keep our traffic. this results in a beautiful, mutual benefit.

And you know what sucks? You have to have money.

No you don't. go live in the wild.

See how fun life is without "The greedy evil capitalists wahh"

So, you get a shitty job, say, working at a factory making I pods. Every two weeks, you get your measly check, and hopefully have enough for rent, food, and gas to get back to work for the next two weeks.

if you're making iPods, you're an unskilled labourer and hence your skills are not valuable. there are plenty of people who are willing and able to do your job for the same wage, so there is no reason your employer should pay you any more.

And its your own fault for having a crappy job. Maybe you should have worked harder at school like the productive people did.

They say that college is the only way to make more money. Get an education. You pay $40,000 to have some bitter old man shovel his hatred at society down your throat,

Well you've obviously chosen some pretty shitty arts subjects if you have this kind of stuff happen. take business and science subjects that are both useful and far less opinion-influenced.

just so you can maybe be able to live decently. To be a fucking consumer.

No you fool, to be a PRODUCER.

We are being reminded that human nature does not evolve with the advancements of civilization. This is oppression, and it is propaganda. We are being brainwashed

Oh shit up already ffs

No one says that human nature is to reason and to spread knowledge. They all say it is in our nature to oppress and eliminate those who bring harm to the self.

So its wrong to get rid of those who harm you ???

I say it's the parasites of our society that need to be exploited and purged.

Parasites are the ones who never try hard in life and expect to get somewhere from the hard work of otehrs. Sounds like you actually.

Those with good intentions have the ultimate power when they gain the will to rise against. What this world needs is more leadership by example, a ripple effect of clarity and perspective.

ahaha, exactly, good INTENTIONS.

that's what by a liberl is all about, isn't it. Being good intentioned, ddoing what sounds good.
Except that you have a complete and utter disregard for teh practical consequences of your ideas.

Almost all who submit to these ideologies of dog eat dog, oppress and prosper are in fact being exploited themselves.

Dog eat dog is a beautiful thing because it drives innovation.

If the government controlled all production, what motivation have they do do things better and mroe efficiently? None, and as a result society suffers.

What do you all think?

That you're a complete and utter ignorant moronic fool who will get nowhere in life and will blame those who tried and worked hard for this.

[Korriken]

At 11/27/09 03:24 AM, Grimm51 wrote: What do you all think?

I think you need to thicken your skin and learn how business works.

Here in America, you are worth your efforts to better yourself. if you play through school and get a job flipping burgers at McDonald's. that is your own fault, not the fault of those who studied their asses off in school, got a fine education, then advanced themselves beyond burger flipper.

they are not the parasites, the parasites are the ones who sit in their asses all day, bitch and moan about someone keeping them down as they go to Burker King and never give a thought about going back to school or any kind of an education, or at least learning a trade, like carpentry ot welding.

[pr0ded]

Without the rich, there would be far fewer jobs than there is today,

and a lot of those jobs are useless

"Man's ego is the fountainhead of human progress."

which had been debunked before the last time you said that
because its involved with habitual processes, and has nothing to with with what you believe it does

If people want to "waste" their lives seeking profit, then by all means let them, and pursue your own non-materialistic desires.

naw, you idiot

You think Tom Fulp maintains newgrounds for the sake of his its users? Of course not, he does it to attract advertisers and hence make profit.

how do you know this

in reality, you're all parasites that take more than you give, which is shit, and "work" that is shit, or useless

we should have the freedom to create useless product, at the cost of the environment, its freedom!!

and we'll make it desirable with television, that is how we create your reality that have you think its OK

[pr0ded]

and regardless psychology is a soft science

seem to forget about "ego death" drugs, psychedelic drugs that catalyze imagination, might be the responsible for it http://www.amazon.com/Food-Gods-Original -Knowledge-Evolution/dp/0553371304

a right winger could say they give you "communist thoughts"

and the ones today want it legal, forgetting that ones in the 1960's noticed it causing social change which they did not want, not the "status quo"

but it still happened and now they all enjoy those changes (sexual revolution porn, RATM, etc)

so they enjoy shit products, or they are in on or associated with producing crap

[Korriken]

At 11/27/09 09:32 AM, pr0ded wrote:

and a lot of those jobs are useless

give specifics.

You think Tom Fulp maintains newgrounds for the sake of his its users? Of course not, he does it to attract advertisers and hence make profit.

how do you know this

you see the advertisement at the top and bottom of the screen? there you go. Also, if there was nothing to be had from the website, he wouldn't maintain it.

in reality, you're all parasites that take more than you give, which is shit, and "work" that is shit, or useless

I would dignify this with a retort, but you're not worth it. you're just some mentally deranged know nothing that is mad at the world because your job sucks. or perhaps you're butthurt that you gotta go to school still. get over it, or better yet. jump off a cliff and do the world a favor. at least your rotting corpse can fertilize some grass somewhere and be useful.

we should have the freedom to create useless product, at the cost of the environment, its freedom!!

what exactly is useless that you're raging on about? did mommy make you take your vitamins this morning and they taste nasty?

and we'll make it desirable with television, that is how we create your reality that have you think its OK

......

[pr0ded]

attract advertisers only for 2 little spaces?

"mad at the world is invalid"

because you have a delusion that sitting on your ass doing nothing is wrong, while sitting and pushing buttons is acceptable, where that is a job

"you aren't worth my time cause you're a talentless hack"

art is a sucky job isnt it,

[pr0ded]

At 11/27/09 10:45 AM, Korriken wrote:

and we'll make it desirable with television, that is how we create your reality that have you think its OK

does that dot dot dot mean social conditioning? too delusional to realize that?

[Korriken]

At 11/27/09 10:49 AM, pr0ded wrote: attract advertisers only for 2 little spaces?

every time you click a link or refresh a page you get hit with 2 advertisements. it adds up when you got several hundreds of people clicking links all day. simple to understand.

because you have a delusion that sitting on your ass doing nothing is wrong, while sitting and pushing buttons is acceptable, where that is a job

Oh I get it. you wanna sit around doing nothing all day and expect people to hand you everything you want? get real, world doesn't work that way. The train does not jump off the tracks out of compassion for the cow that won't get off the tracks.

"you aren't worth my time cause you're a talentless hack"

art is a sucky job isnt it,

butthurt because someone turned down your art?

[pr0ded]

you're just some mentally deranged know nothing that is mad at the world because your job sucks

or you could read my post over again, maybe realize not all people derive their enjoyment from money, don't care about "he (not her)who dies with the most toys wins"

maybe realize its all the result of social conditioning

and realize a lot of your toys are useless, fleshlights, jewelry

that the materials to produce them limited, and your delusional way of life is unsustainable

[pr0ded]

its called an adblocker, maybe you're an idiot who uses IE

Oh I get it. you wanna sit around doing nothing all day and expect people to hand you everything you want? get real, world doesn't work that way. The train does not jump off the tracks out of compassion for the cow that won't get off the tracks.

The train does not jump off the tracks out of compassion for the cow that won't get off the tracks.

what is you people and saying things with this, kind of like on stormfront

Oh I get it. you wanna sit around doing nothing all day and expect people to hand you everything you want? get real, world doesn't work that way.

no, i sit around and press buttons for 9 hours, for a company which perpetuates a sedentary lifestyle with products that promote it, which are all usefull

butthurt because someone turned down your art?

interpret better

[Elfer]

At 11/27/09 10:45 AM, Korriken wrote:

At 11/27/09 09:32 AM, pr0ded wrote:

and a lot of those jobs are useless

give specifics.

How about marketing? A great deal of labour and resources is expended on it, but society gains virtually nothing from it.

Consumption-driven economic growth can't last forever. We've got the resources and technology to give every human on the planet a comfortable living, but due to the overwhelming abundance of greed and hate, it's not viable right now. Shame, really.

[Korriken]

At 11/27/09 11:03 AM, pr0ded wrote:

or you could read my post over again, maybe realize not all people derive their enjoyment from money, don't care about "he (not her)who dies with the most toys wins"

to each his own. just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean they're wrong.

maybe realize its all the result of social conditioning

or personal choice. is my self education in music and japanese language and culture a result of social conditioning? I'd hope not, since I play jazz bass.

and realize a lot of your toys are useless, fleshlights, jewelry

Fleshlight? I had to look that one up. that's kind of.... ugh... wow. However, if you enjoy that kind of thing, then I suppose, that's you. and useless? thats a matter of opinion really.

that the materials to produce them limited, and your delusional way of life is unsustainable

well then, in your mind, what is the "correct" way to live? communal farming?

[pr0ded]

or personal choice. is my self education in music and japanese language and culture a result of social conditioning? I'd hope not, since I play jazz bass.

except it applies to your perceptions, so it is, it makes up your subjective experience of reality

thats a matter of opinion really.

maybe i was being sarcastic

[Warforger]

At 11/27/09 09:59 AM, pr0ded wrote: a right winger could say they give you "communist thoughts"

Well the problem here is, is that your acting like you want Communism, no advertisements, everyone has the same pay etc. So you really are a Communist you probably just don't know it or accept it.

[adrshepard]

At 11/27/09 11:14 AM, Elfer wrote: How about marketing? A great deal of labour and resources is expended on it, but society gains virtually nothing from it.

You could say the same thing for the freight or warehouse industry. They don't "produce" anything, but both are vitally important services. It's the same with marketing, only with ideas instead of goods.

Consumption-driven economic growth can't last forever.

What do you mean? What other type of economic growth doesn't involve consumption? Investment doesn't count, since it only exists to fund the production of something.

[JeremieCompNerd]

At 11/27/09 12:50 PM, Warforger wrote:

At 11/27/09 09:59 AM, pr0ded wrote: a right winger could say they give you "communist thoughts"

Well the problem here is, is that your acting like you want Communism, no advertisements, everyone has the same pay etc. So you really are a Communist you probably just don't know it or accept it.

Okay, while I've been doing my level best to keep out of this shitstorm, sooner or later someone has to say it. FUCK OFF ABOUT COMMUNISM. It's a great idea that's been demonized because people aren't unbiased and emotionally capable of running it. Go read about Marxist communism, the real concept behind it. It's not an evil thing, it's a great idea that we lack the compassion to really use. There are too many greedy people for it to work, but if we all grew up a little we could have perfectly functional communism that work FAR better than modern governments do. Communism has been demonized because people have never actually tried it. They just found a better way to steal from the people and named it after communism because they didn't know any better.

[Elfer]

At 11/27/09 01:06 PM, adrshepard wrote: You could say the same thing for the freight or warehouse industry. They don't "produce" anything, but both are vitally important services. It's the same with marketing, only with ideas instead of goods.

Freight and warehouse industries do actually produce something though. They facilitate the transportation of goods from one area to another, which allows efficiency of scale. Marketing consumes resources, and produces nothing but an increased proclivity to consume resources. It's an entropy machine.

Consumption-driven economic growth can't last forever.

What do you mean? What other type of economic growth doesn't involve consumption? Investment doesn't count, since it only exists to fund the production of something.

I mean that our entire model of economics conflicts with reality. The theory is correct, but only because it's based on a model that we constructed for ourselves. The entire system of economic drive needs to be torn down and rebuilt around more sustainable ideas. We need to start considering the whole life cycle of products when determining value. The consumption-driven model only works when resources are infinite, and as markets have gotten bigger and bigger, our resource pool is becoming much more finite.

For example, in the current economic model, if someone buys and scraps four cars over the course of their lifetime, that's "better" for the economy than someone who does the same with only two vehicles. If we consider the whole system, however, the best result is if the person never needs to buy a car at all. Instead of trying to get people to consume more resources, we should be looking to reduce the amount of resources needed to satisfy their needs, and increase the efficiency in use of those resources to increase quality of life.

The problem with this idea, of course, is that no matter how big you make government, the bottleneck is the individuals involved. People have to be willing to cooperate with one another and take the good of the community into account when making decisions. The change needs to be fundamentally societal rather than governmental. Ideally, the government would serve to facilitate the exchange and distribution of goods, not regulate it, and people would all want to pitch in voluntarily.

Obviously, these are BIG issues that I have with the economy, and I don't think there's any way that they can be fixed within the span of my life. All we can do right now is start laying the groundwork. For example, I'm going to teach my kids about the (for lack of a better word) "spiritual" aspects of money, not just the stuff about responsible personal finance.

[MultiCanimefan]

At 11/27/09 04:20 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote:

At 11/27/09 03:24 AM, Grimm51 wrote:

Being ABLE to become prosperous is what makes America home of the free.

It makes it home of the ABLE. "Land of Potential" is better.

The rich are the productive people in society.

Yes they're productive, but I prefer to give the people who work for the rich as well an equal amount of credit in terms of productivity.

Without the rich, there would be far fewer jobs than there is today,

And without the workers we'd get nowhere. Technically it's both the rich and the workers who help us get somewhere. A mutual relationship, really.

Can't you see this is a good thing? Competition is what drives innovation.

He's not arguing against rich people and having money so much as he's arguing against how the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Is competition a good thing? Absolutely, but

"Man's ego is the fountainhead of human progress."

I thought it was necessity; reducing the dissonance between comfort and discomfort. One's Ego has nothing to do with creating things that make our lives easier and more fun. What you said can be more applicable to the business world than anything else.

in this land of overabundance and excess.

Being the most prosperous society in history is a GOOD thing.

Overabundance and excess is not good in the sense that if you have overabundance and excess, it tends to get thrown away and wasted, which happens with any industrialized 1st world nation.

If there were no advertisements, tehre would be practically no tv, radio or internet.

There wouldn't be as many people buying such products. How did previous inventions sell without an over-abundance of advertisements?

No you don't. go live in the wild.

See how fun life is without "The greedy evil capitalists wahh"

You only consider it unfun because you've been brought up in a world of and pampered by Capitalism. Anyone who hasn't wouldn't mind.

So, you get a shitty job, say, working at a factory making I pods. Every two weeks, you get your measly check, and hopefully have enough for rent, food, and gas to get back to work for the next two weeks.

if you're making iPods, you're an unskilled labourer and hence your skills are not valuable.

Someone has to make them, right?

just so you can maybe be able to live decently. To be a fucking consumer.

No you fool, to be a PRODUCER.

You can't be a producer without being a consumer and vice-versa.

that's what by a liberl is all about, isn't it.

Did you mean that's what being a Liberal is all about? If so, I disagree.

Being good intentioned, ddoing what sounds good.

As if anyone knows what's ultimately good.

Except that you have a complete and utter disregard for teh practical consequences of your ideas.

While I'm not speaking directly to you or the Conservative base as a whole, this sounds very familiar.

Dog eat dog is a beautiful thing because it drives innovation.

Dog eat dog drives and is a result of Ego; necessity drives innovation. The only thing dog eat dog accomplishes is who gets the ultimate credit leaving the other people to wither away and die as a result of being "weak."

If the government controlled all production, what motivation have they do do things better and mroe efficiently?

None, and as a result society suffers.

Exactly, I agree completely. Now I ask you to show me where Ego has a place in this in creating better and more efficient products, because I'm pretty sure it doesn't unless you insist on speaking in strictly business terms which you have been doing.

[flailthefox]

At 11/27/09 03:24 AM, Grimm51 wrote: I say it's the parasites of our society that need to be exploited and purged. Those with good intentions have the ultimate power when they gain the will to rise against. What this world needs is more leadership by example, a ripple effect of clarity and perspective. Almost all who submit to these ideologies of dog eat dog, oppress and prosper are in fact being exploited themselves.

Fuck them.

What do you all think?

Heh, if your talking about America, it's always expected. You should join my Political Party, we're abolishing money altogether XD.

Anyway, people always need money. for some reason, the whole planet has it in thier head that you can't live without money, which isn't true -.-'

But of course, we "have" to have money ;D

[poxpower]

At 11/27/09 01:31 PM, Elfer wrote: For example, I'm going to teach my kids about the (for lack of a better word) "spiritual" aspects of money, not just the stuff about responsible personal finance.

Well you do realize that having kids is better for the economy, but given our finite ressource pool the one who has NONE is far better.

Time to adopt a little Chinese girl man. Don't feed the machine!

[morefngdbs]

At 11/27/09 03:24 AM, Grimm51 wrote: What do you all think?

;;;
Try moving out into the country side.
look at what your good at & do something you really enjoy
Make sure the place is small ( like a village) not bigger than that.

relax, you'll live longer

[adrshepard]

At 11/27/09 01:31 PM, Elfer wrote: Freight and warehouse industries do actually produce something though. They facilitate the transportation of goods from one area to another, which allows efficiency of scale. Marketing consumes resources, and produces nothing but an increased proclivity to consume resources. It's an entropy machine.

Not necessarily. You're assuming that there will be additional consumption and it will be wasteful. Lots of advertising only aims to get the consumer to switch from one product to another one, like in car commercials. If one company makes a car that performs just as well as another but is thousands cheaper, isn't it good for society if people's needs were met without them spending as much? If so, how could that realistically happen without advertising?

I mean that our entire model of economics conflicts with reality. The theory is correct, but only because it's based on a model that we constructed for ourselves. The entire system of economic drive needs to be torn down and rebuilt around more sustainable ideas. We need to start considering the whole life cycle of products when determining value.

Sounds to me like shaping human nature to fit the model, rather than the other way around.

For example, in the current economic model, if someone buys and scraps four cars over the course of their lifetime, that's "better" for the economy than someone who does the same with only two vehicles. If we consider the whole system, however, the best result is if the person never needs to buy a car at all. Instead of trying to get people to consume more resources, we should be looking to reduce the amount of resources needed to satisfy their needs, and increase the efficiency in use of those resources to increase quality of life.

Supply and demand already addresses that problem. When the resources needed to make something become scarce, that something rises in price. Theoretically, the world will never "run out" of fossil fuels; there will simply be so little left that it would be incredibly expensive and no one would buy any. The high price also raises the incentive for people to find substitute goods. I find it hard to believe that the level of technology today represents extracts the maximum potential value of all resources on the Earth. Who's to say that the Earth couldn't eventually support twice or half-again as many people as it does now with the same relative standards of living?

The change needs to be fundamentally societal rather than governmental. Ideally, the government would serve to facilitate the exchange and distribution of goods, not regulate it, and people would all want to pitch in voluntarily.

I've thought about such a scenario and the only way I can envision it is to assume that the "profit-seeking motive" somehow includes equal profit for everyone. The only way that can happen is for each person to care about everyone else equally, regardless of relation or amount of interaction.
If you buy into evolutionary psychology at all, that would be almost impossible, even over several generations of people. Protecting and providing for oneself and family even at the expense of others is the strongest primal instinct. You might as well hope that humanity completely represses its sex drive and view intercourse exclusively as a means of reproduction.

[Warforger]

At 11/27/09 01:29 PM, JeremieCompNerd wrote:

At 11/27/09 12:50 PM, Warforger wrote:

At 11/27/09 09:59 AM, pr0ded wrote: a right winger could say they give you "communist thoughts"

Well the problem here is, is that your acting like you want Communism, no advertisements, everyone has the same pay etc. So you really are a Communist you probably just don't know it or accept it.

Okay, while I've been doing my level best to keep out of this shitstorm, sooner or later someone has to say it. FUCK OFF ABOUT COMMUNISM. It's a great idea that's been demonized because people aren't unbiased and emotionally capable of running it. Go read about Marxist communism, the real concept behind it. It's not an evil thing, it's a great idea that we lack the compassion to really use. There are too many greedy people for it to work, but if we all grew up a little we could have perfectly functional communism that work FAR better than modern governments do. Communism has been demonized because people have never actually tried it. They just found a better way to steal from the people and named it after communism because they didn't know any better.

I never advocated the system, I just said that the OP is a Communist.

:Error - your post was 1,249 characters in length, 93.67% of which was taken up by quoted text. Please include only the quoted parts that are relevant in your post before trying to post your message again.

[pr0ded]

At 11/27/09 03:43 PM, Warforger wrote: Well the problem here is, is that your acting like you want Communism, no advertisements, everyone has the same pay etc. So you really are a Communist you probably just don't know it or accept it.

its "you're"

OP is not me

never said i wanted communism, no advertisements, everyone gets the same etc

no proof of "acting like i want" since consumerism

At 11/27/09 09:59 AM, pr0ded wrote:

that post referred to "reefer madness" era propaganda, but now it would probably be called "liberal" in their modern day American definition

heres your "human nature"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominator_c ulture

[Elfer]

At 11/27/09 03:37 PM, adrshepard wrote: If one company makes a car that performs just as well as another but is thousands cheaper, isn't it good for society if people's needs were met without them spending as much? If so, how could that realistically happen without advertising?

If people were willing to do research, maybe? To put it in a different way, do you really, truly believe that the free market is correct when it has decided that the most beneficial way to spend a couple of billion dollars every year is to try to convince people to drink the right kind of sugary water? Could that money not be better spent say, developing infrastructure in Africa?

Sounds to me like shaping human nature to fit the model, rather than the other way around.

Yeah, pretty much, although it's more like shaping the nature of society to fit the model. This is why I think that this issue will take at least 200 years to solve, if not more. That doesn't mean it's not worth working on.

Supply and demand already addresses that problem. When the resources needed to make something become scarce, that something rises in price.

Hmm? That's really not what I'm saying here. I'm saying that a society that thinks it's okay to waste when it's cheap to do so is not sustainable in the long-run. One of the major, major issues with our economic model is that it gives no consideration to envrionmental costs. If you own property with old-growth trees, there is no economic cost associated with cutting down those trees.

I've thought about such a scenario and the only way I can envision it is to assume that the "profit-seeking motive" somehow includes equal profit for everyone. The only way that can happen is for each person to care about everyone else equally, regardless of relation or amount of interaction.
If you buy into evolutionary psychology at all, that would be almost impossible, even over several generations of people. Protecting and providing for oneself and family even at the expense of others is the strongest primal instinct. You might as well hope that humanity completely represses its sex drive and view intercourse exclusively as a means of reproduction.

It doesn't necessarily need to be equal profit for everyone, the money just needs to be "smeared around" more across a given community, with maybe some taken off the top to help other communities out until they can become self-sustaining. Obviously, until we have technology such that meeting the whole population's basic needs is trivial, we can't all be exactly equal. However, when we consider the fact that we've got billionaires and large swathes of people dying of malnutrition or contaminated drinking water on the same planet, I think we can do a lot better than we're doing now.

Also, your assumption about evolutionary psychology is arguably incorrect. Yes, people will instinctively protect their own survival over that of others, but it's not to their benefit to greedily act in only their own interest to the exclusion of all others. This is the very reason that people organize themselves into communities, and that loneliness exists. We can accomplish more through cooperation than we can individually. This explains feelings such as loneliness, or the warm fuzzies that you get from helping others.

Another big problem with the economy is that personal gains are measured in material goods. If we could provide a reasonably comfortable existence for all the humans, increases in efficiency might just as well be used to work less rather than have more or fancier stuff.

[SadisticMonkey]

At 11/27/09 01:48 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote:

At 11/27/09 04:20 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote:

It makes it home of the ABLE. "Land of Potential" is better.

No I mean able not as in having the skill, as in being FREE to start businesses, work for whoever they want, and sell their skills for howveer much they can get for them.

The rich are the productive people in society.

Yes they're productive, but I prefer to give the people who work for the rich as well an equal amount of credit in terms of productivity.

Without the rich, there would be far fewer jobs than there is today,

And without the workers we'd get nowhere. Technically it's both the rich and the workers who help us get somewhere. A mutual relationship, really.

say hyou have two guys.

One smart hard-working, one of average intelligence and ambition.

The first one takes a huge risk and starts his own business, the other guy just works in the same level and never tries to get anywhere.
The second guy now works for the first guy.

Sure, the first one needs the second one to run his business, but who deserves more credit for the company's productiveness?

He's not arguing against rich people and having money so much as he's arguing against how the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Is competition a good thing? Absolutely, but

lol left wingers would rather everyone be poorer if it means less of a gap between the rich and poor.

which is obviously stupid.

"Man's ego is the fountainhead of human progress."

I thought it was necessity; reducing the dissonance between comfort and discomfort. One's Ego has nothing to do with creating things that make our lives easier and more fun.

K well you have to think about this not as in "Oh hey look at me I'm so good" ego, but more in terms of in seeking to fulfil one's own self-interest.

i mean, do you think new technologies and great works of art get made for the love of one's fellow man?

No of course not. Companies invest in research to make money. Artists create art to become wealthy and famous

What you said can be more applicable to the business world than anything else.

Sure but most innovation is driven through investment from the business world.

Overabundance and excess is not good in the sense that if you have overabundance and excess, it tends to get thrown away and wasted, which happens with any industrialized 1st world nation.

yeah sure there's wastage, but here's nothing you can do about it that wouldn't end up ultimately hurting the country.

And if you are going to do something, nobody should be FORCED to change.

There wouldn't be as many people buying such products. How did previous inventions sell without an over-abundance of advertisements?

You're acting as if I argued that these advertisements help sell products that wouldn't otehrwise sell, which is not the reason I was defending them.

This is an example of self interest helping others. Tv executives want money (self interest), they need to attract ADVERTISERS, to do so they need viewers, to attract viewers, they work to create television shows that people will enjoy watching, hence people get entertainment.

You only consider it unfun because you've been brought up in a world of and pampered by Capitalism. Anyone who hasn't wouldn't mind.

Lol you have got to be kidding me.

Modern western life is practically a utopia compared to a hundreds of years ago for the average person.

i mean, "oh look I'm sick, too bad the "EVIL GREEDY WAHH" pharmaceutical companies aren't here to be driven by self interest and develop a drug for me to buy from them coz now im dead lol omg "

Someone has to make them, right?

yeah but anyone can do it so you're very expendable

I mean, people will say that CEO's are overpaid and everything, but the main reason is that they're very much not expendable. There are only a handful (relatively speaking) of people in America who have the skills of Steve Jobs (CEO of Apple ie. people who make iPods), and so it's essential that they keep him at Apple for the succes of their company, because only few people could replace him, making his skills valuable.

You can't be a producer without being a consumer and vice-versa.

omg. he said getting an education makes you a consumer, when the whole point is to make you a producer.
Sure, you'll still be a consumer, but not because of college, probably even less so because of it.

Being good intentioned, ddoing what sounds good.

As if anyone knows what's ultimately good.

Lol its called history ffs.

Look at America: Most productive and prosperous socety in history of the world --> based on economically conservative principles

Look at majority of collectivist states in history: Fail miserably, with the dissolution of personal liberty to boot ---> based on economically liberal principles

Dog eat dog drives and is a result of Ego; necessity drives innovation.

yeah, but those driven by self interest will try to make money. How? By producing new product technology people need. hence, they use the necessity of others to fulfil their own desires.

The only thing dog eat dog accomplishes is who gets the ultimate credit leaving the other people to wither away and die as a result of being "weak."

Lol liberals will be the first to sing the praises of Darwinian evolution (hey don't get me wrong, I'm a biology nut and love evolution) and yet when its principles are applied to business it is seen as cruel and harsh.

Exactly, I agree completely. Now I ask you to show me where Ego has a place in this in creating better and more efficient products, because I'm pretty sure it doesn't unless you insist on speaking in strictly business terms which you have been doing.

Well who do you think creates new products and technologies?
Or, who do think these people are employed by and their research funded by?

[railroadspike]

Artists create art to become wealthy and famous

Which is why so many painters/writers died poor, and there are terms like "bohemian"

[SadisticMonkey]

At 11/28/09 01:02 PM, railroadspike wrote:

Artists create art to become wealthy and famous

Which is why so many painters/writers died poor, and there are terms like "bohemian"

If they died poor then their art obviously didn't appeal to many people

i mean obviously a huge number of artists just do it for their own artistic sake, but I'm talking more about music, literature film etc