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At 11/21/09 01:37 PM, Der-Lowe wrote: I really don't understand how you didn't see this coming.
I mean, the guy had giant approval rates outside of the US! COINCIDENCE? I don't think so. He had obviously a secret devil pact (being a muslim, it's not surprising) with the rest of the world. If he got help in the campaign, then he would bankrupt the US with useless fiscal stimulus and give the only valuable things left to the foreigners.
The pic of him bowing to the Chinese Imperial Dictator is just the beginning.

You know, this sounds like the 2nd Chapter of Barock the Vote: The Movie.

I should recruit you to help write the script.

The bowing can be the tip off to the rest of the country that the President isn't what it seems. (In the movie of course)

At 11/20/09 06:47 PM, Stoicish wrote: Funny, all it said to me was that people love taking things way out of proportion. It is, essentially, you taking your vapid opposition to the President and then attaching more to a situation that is more or less irrelevant.

I've already explained how it reflects his attitude, and so to an extent, the inclination of his foreign policy. I haven't seen you mention any of my responses.

It either mean's you are totally ignorant of other cultures or are aware, but could care less. In the world of International Relations it is sometimes good to play nice and not be the big and bad tough guy.

We've also established that Obama's bow was culturally inappropriate, and I've argued that Obama's bow is further proof of his spinelessness. You've yet to mention any of this.

Then again I believe this horrible nitpicking. Japan is our allies and a President shows respect. You took what was an (albeit awkward) gesture and turned it into a vast attack on your opposing party. Throwing out words like, "weak" "too low" embarrassment" and various that has NOTHING to do with his visit to Japan. Nothing.

What he actually discussed with the Japanese Emperor is irrelevant. This is about Obama and his basic philosophy of American power.

It's more than petty. It just destroys every kind of intellectual debate or argument we can have.

You're the one giving summaries, I'm trying to advance points.

So, from what I can take from this, you saying that the US should take up a "bully" pullpit. We are the strong and the rest are the weak.

True.

As long as the rest of the world plays by OUR rules then we will be okay and let you do what you do. We have to be the ready fist that is going to strike at anyone who dares undermine US policy and that the US only has to play by its own rules instead of working along with the rest?

True, depending on how you define "working along." As far as I know, the US has working, cooperative (at least nominally) relationships with nearly every nation. Some are friendlier than others (UK vs. Russia, for example) but in some aspects we share the same goals. There are few "outcast nations" that we want nothing to do with. Even though things are bad between the US and Cuba, Iran, and North Korea, the US is at least open to improving the relationship in a way that assuages mutual concerns and suspicion.
Simply put, while our goal is to enhance US power, we will usually choose the path of least resistance. For many of those paths, the US isn't the only one to benefit.

This goes back to the, "You are either with us or with the terrorist." Well, I'm sorry, but we don't live in that world anymore and you need to realize that the US is part of the world and not the leader of it.

Aren't we? Have you heard nothing of the US frustration with Pakistan over combating al-Queda and the Taliban? Obama himself, before he was president, advocated strikes in Pakistani territory with or without the government's consentin order to fight al-Queda, and that was when Musharraf was at least making some effort to cooperate with us.

This is one of the most ridiculous complaints of a leader that I have ever heard. Since when has America had to worry about seeming weak to the rest of the world by trying to be too polite? I think its much better to be overly polite then to be rude.

You don't demonstrate your power or resolve by refusing to speak softly and politely with foreign heads of state, especially when you have favorable relations with them. You merely piss them off and look like a jerk to the entire world. This is why the world disliked president bush so much.

Fearing appearing weak in situations like this merely shows how weak you feel you actually are. You can see this everywhere from school playgrounds, to third world nations trying to seem tough, to the head of an animal pack. Those that are truly strong do not need to continually posture and show how strong they are to those around them. If America needs to worry so much about things like this, then it is a lot weaker then I thought.

Anyone that thinks Obama is weak because he bowed too low is a fool and is not fit to lead an elementary school student to the bathroom.

Remember, Speak softly and carry a big stick, don't pick fights and then run away when the fight looks like it is going badly. This is not only a good policy, but the only policy that a democracy will be willing to fight a long war under.

At 11/22/09 12:58 AM, mayeram wrote: This is one of the most ridiculous complaints of a leader that I have ever heard. Since when has America had to worry about seeming weak to the rest of the world by trying to be too polite? I think its much better to be overly polite then to be rude.

Cheney wasn't rude when he greeted the emperor with a handshake.

You don't demonstrate your power or resolve by refusing to speak softly and politely with foreign heads of state, especially when you have favorable relations with them. You merely piss them off and look like a jerk to the entire world. This is why the world disliked president bush so much.

We aren't talking about being polite, we're talking about the President bowing low to another leader.

God forbid we look like a jerk to the world. Why don't you just come out and say it? Obama's low bow prevented people from becoming terrorists, right?

Fearing appearing weak in situations like this merely shows how weak you feel you actually are. You can see this everywhere from school playgrounds, to third world nations trying to seem tough, to the head of an animal pack. Those that are truly strong do not need to continually posture and show how strong they are to those around them. If America needs to worry so much about things like this, then it is a lot weaker then I thought.

Uhh, no, leaders must always maintain the perception that they are in control and know what to do. They must act the part. I'm afraid its the same thing with animals, Professor Goodall, because dogs, sea lions, and pretty much any animal that lives in a pack has a leader who constantly displays his authority. Any behavior that makes a leader seem weak or indecisive immediately undermines his authority by sowing doubt among his followers and disrespect in his competition.

^this guy......is an idiot...

Dude, its a fucking bow, get over it, its nothing more then a gesture, besides, did you hear there conversation? Did you hear what he was dicsussing on his way to China? Do you care so much about the bow you ignore Obama's attempt at trying to get China to have more rights?

We're comparing humans to animals outside the human species AGAIN? Well, too late now, argument has now officially reached critical mass.

I know, he is being stupid

As someone who is taking comparative politics in Japan, this does nothing more than make obama look a little goofy. It would be an international relations mistake not to make gestures such as bowing to the emperor, especially in light of the recent handover of power in this fall's election. His bow is very low, but should not be considered anything more than a mistake any American would make in an attempt to show respect. Akihito is bowing btw. but since is tiny, especially compared to obama, he doesn't need to bow that far. If were going to argue technicalities of the traditional Japanese bow, I can only point out that Obama lowered his eyes to the ground where as you're supposed to find a balance between bending while not making your head look like its on a hinge while avoiding looking at the persons feet.

An OP... it matters a great deal whether this was Japan or China. Japan is a liberal democracy and is host to 47,000 American military uniforms. Do you really think the Japanese people like the fact that there are over 20 American military bases in their country? As long as they are letting us use their land for our military bases, we can at least show them respect for maintaining our status as firm allies.

Yah they do, because of that they don't have to spend money on military making them the world leader in innovation in technology.

At 11/19/09 05:00 PM, adrshepard wrote: Seriously, why don't all of you guys just move to Canada? There, you can live like Americans without worrying about the problems that accompany having any global influence whatsoever.

It's actually pretty great. The Prime Minister can pretty much do anything and people just don't worry about it.

At 11/23/09 04:23 PM, Elfer wrote:

At 11/19/09 05:00 PM, adrshepard wrote: Seriously, why don't all of you guys just move to Canada? There, you can live like Americans without worrying about the problems that accompany having any global influence whatsoever.

It's actually pretty great. The Prime Minister can pretty much do anything and people just don't worry about it.

But I don't like eternal Winter. I move Canada annexes the U.S. and they trade land.

Me: The bow by itself is insignificant, but along with Obama's history it shows a pattern of behavior that's damaging to this country.

At 11/22/09 11:50 PM, Warforger wrote: It's just a bow, you idiot.

Me: The actual content of their conversation is irrelevant.

At 11/22/09 11:50 PM, Warforger wrote: Besides, did you hear their conversation?

Me: Countries aren't going to change their policies simply because Obama goes around apologizing and chastising America. Our fundamental interests haven't changed, and these drive policy.

At 11/22/09 11:50 PM, Warforger wrote: Do you care so much about the bow you ignore Obama's attempt at trying to get China to have more rights?

No, I saw his attempt; I saw it fail utterly.

At 11/23/09 04:07 PM, EKublai wrote: Do you really think the Japanese people like the fact that there are over 20 American military bases in their country? As long as they are letting us use their land for our military bases, we can at least show them respect for maintaining our status as firm allies.

You seem to forget why those bases are even there. Our presence isn't due to the graciousness of the Japanese.
In the meantime, the US continues to redeploy forces away from Japan while still helping provide security, deterence, and crisis response for the nation.

Pattern of behavior? If anything its improving since Bush years..... Seriously, what else do you want Obama to do to China besides say he supports universal rights? An invasion of China our big economic buddy? A boycott of there goods and pressuring them? Do you realize why Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize at all?

At 11/23/09 05:58 PM, adrshepard wrote:

You seem to forget why those bases are even there. Our presence isn't due to the graciousness of the Japanese.
In the meantime, the US continues to redeploy forces away from Japan while still helping provide security, deterence, and crisis response for the nation.

Their defense force is just for show, I assume. And yeah sure, inb4 jokes about how it's terrible.

At 11/23/09 07:10 PM, Warforger wrote: Pattern of behavior? If anything its improving since Bush years..... Seriously, what else do you want Obama to do to China besides say he supports universal rights? An invasion of China our big economic buddy? A boycott of there goods and pressuring them? Do you realize why Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize at all?

No; he should do exactly as he's doing. But it's just the generic freedom talk that US presidents are obligated to give from time to time. Why you are so impressed by it, I don't know. I was just making clear that your appreciation couldn't stem from any consequence of his remarks, since they had none.
If you think that Obama's humility and self-deprecating behavior are an improvement since Bush, I'd like to know how you would define "improvement." Certainly not because it has given the US anything tangible in return, that's for sure.

At 11/23/09 07:55 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote: Their defense force is just for show, I assume. And yeah sure, inb4 jokes about how it's terrible.

It's not designed to provide the full defense Japan could potentially need. The US fills that gap.

At 11/22/09 01:34 PM, adrshepard wrote:

God forbid we look like a jerk to the world. Why don't you just come out and say it? Obama's low bow prevented people from becoming terrorists, right?

Yeah, us.

At 11/18/09 07:28 PM, Stoicish wrote: I am furious at what Obama did in China!

For those who don't know our illustrious "president" has decided to make us look weaker to the rest of the world yet again by going up and bowing to the Emperor of China! CHINA!

Aside from the country being a Communist one its like a stab in a back to all American citizens. It's like our leader told us that we must bow to the Chinese now. I, for one, refuse to do so, but Obama seems the need to do so because of some stupid liberal sense of appeasement. Why do we have to appease them? Everything would be okay if we just came up and acted strong like we have at all times.

I stated this to a few people and they kept telling me there was no Emperor in China. Well, I showed them Fox and Friends and they said China the whole time. Then they told me that bowing is just a sign of respect.

Okay, I get it kinda. Obama is trying act nice and all, but a proper handshake would be just fine. Instead he shakes hands and then bows!

Let's pretend I'm even okay with this bullshit! He didn't have to bow so low. It was almost 90 degrees! It reminded me of old days when slaves would bow to their masters!

Oh and doing point racism at me because you all know exactly how it looks.

Whatever they had to talk about is irrelevant because of this simple act that he had the gall to do. I'm just getting embarrassed more and more by this president every day and look for ward to voting for Palin in 2012!

Because showing respect is a horrible thing to do, leaders should never show each other respect, this is how politics works! Regardless, Obama is a tool, like all other presidents. Republican/Democrat, it really doesn't matter.

And calling modern day China communist is like calling the DPRK democratic, it's an abuse of the term. Just because a 'communist' party is in control does not make the socio-economic system communist. Unfortunately, China has slipped from its communistic traits and is now, and ever more so, privatizing and becoming capitalistic.

Shaking hands is an American way to show respect, and bowing is a Chinese way, it's that simple. There are other cultures that can be observed. The greater the bow, the greater the respect.

At 11/24/09 10:25 PM, adrshepard wrote:

At 11/23/09 07:10 PM, Warforger wrote: Pattern of behavior? If anything its improving since Bush years..... Seriously, what else do you want Obama to do to China besides say he supports universal rights? An invasion of China our big economic buddy? A boycott of there goods and pressuring them? Do you realize why Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize at all?

No; he should do exactly as he's doing. But it's just the generic freedom talk that US presidents are obligated to give from time to time. Why you are so impressed by it, I don't know. I was just making clear that your appreciation couldn't stem from any consequence of his remarks, since they had none.
If you think that Obama's humility and self-deprecating behavior are an improvement since Bush, I'd like to know how you would define "improvement." Certainly not because it has given the US anything tangible in return, that's for sure.

Bush's foreign policy was mostly alienate anyone who hates and not try to solve our problems without waging all out war. Because what the average Conservative seems to think is that War is good as long as its against people who hate us, his foreign policy was fighting fire with fire, it only makes things worse. This is true in the sense that everyone who used violence to try and solve conflicts always ends up with worse relations with there enemy and just more lives lost, look at Germany during the 20's and 30's, France and Germany during the 1870's, the Palestinian Israeli conflict, the Cold War, then look at countries in which we did have peaceful negotiations with and see how it ended up, the Soviet Union and China being the major ones, MLK jr. , Indian-British relations after India seperated etc.

It should be a proven fact that agressiveness when your not at war only makes the problem worse, which is why I like Obama because he's negotiating so no war starts to begin with.

At 11/25/09 02:45 PM, Warforger wrote: Bush's foreign policy was mostly alienate anyone who hates and not try to solve our problems without waging all out war.

You're right; Bush recommended war with every single nation we had any disputes with over the past 8 years. Good thing we only disagreed with Iraq and Afghanistan!
Do you even realize how stupid you sound? Are you so mentally inferior that you only have tired lines about "going it alone" to offer?

Because what the average Conservative seems to think is that War is good as long as its against people who hate us, his foreign policy was fighting fire with fire, it only makes things worse. This is true in the sense that everyone who used violence to try and solve conflicts always ends up with worse relations with there enemy and just more lives lost, look at Germany during the 20's and 30's.

War has never permanently solved any disputes, ever? Is that what you're saying? Not the Revolutionary War? Not WWII? Not the Civil War? Not the Third Carthaginian War?

France and Germany during the 1870's, the Palestinian Israeli conflict, the Cold War, then look at countries in which we did have peaceful negotiations with and see how it ended up, the Soviet Union and China being the major ones, MLK jr. , Indian-British relations after India seperated etc.

What are you even trying to say? That every single conflict is avoidable "if only they had negotiated?" Not all wars are decisive, but that doesn't mean they were never worth fighting, nor does it come close to proving that ALL wars are pointless.

It should be a proven fact that agressiveness when your not at war only makes the problem worse, which is why I like Obama because he's negotiating so no war starts to begin with.

This is the kicker, right here, because it finally shows that you believe negotiation is an end in itself. No matter what the costs, no matter what the risks, so long as the US spends years negotiating every single damn thing, that's okay with you. Is nothing worth fighting for at all? Is there no point in negotiations where the US can say "This is our final position. We will never concede or compromise on this issue?" It takes two parties to compromise, but when one completely believes in the legitimacy and righteousness of a cause that stands in direct conflict with the view held just as strongly as the other, then war is inevitable.

I get the impression I'm arguing with some punk from middle school. You're throwing ideas around without understanding any of the subtleties they involve and the intellectual sophistication they require.

At 11/25/09 05:48 PM, adrshepard wrote:

At 11/25/09 02:45 PM, Warforger wrote: Bush's foreign policy was mostly alienate anyone who hates and not try to solve our problems without waging all out war.

You're right; Bush recommended war with every single nation we had any disputes with over the past 8 years. Good thing we only disagreed with Iraq and Afghanistan!
Do you even realize how stupid you sound? Are you so mentally inferior that you only have tired lines about "going it alone" to offer?

Iran. North Korea. Gee there best buds and Bush certainly didn't put them on some "Axis of Evil"!

At 11/25/09 05:48 PM, adrshepard wrote:

Because what the average Conservative seems to think is that War is good as long as its against people who hate us, his foreign policy was fighting fire with fire, it only makes things worse. This is true in the sense that everyone who used violence to try and solve conflicts always ends up with worse relations with there enemy and just more lives lost, look at Germany during the 20's and 30's.

War has never permanently solved any disputes, ever? Is that what you're saying? Not the Revolutionary War? Not WWII? Not the Civil War? Not the Third Carthaginian War?

No, WWII we fixed up Germany, thats not necessarily fair since we took them over and made them hate the Communists more then they hated us.

At 11/25/09 05:48 PM, adrshepard wrote:

France and Germany during the 1870's, the Palestinian Israeli conflict, the Cold War, then look at countries in which we did have peaceful negotiations with and see how it ended up, the Soviet Union and China being the major ones, MLK jr. , Indian-British relations after India seperated etc.

What are you even trying to say? That every single conflict is avoidable "if only they had negotiated?" Not all wars are decisive, but that doesn't mean they were never worth fighting, nor does it come close to proving that ALL wars are pointless.

It should be a proven fact that agressiveness when your not at war only makes the problem worse, which is why I like Obama because he's negotiating so no war starts to begin with.

This is the kicker, right here, because it finally shows that you believe negotiation is an end in itself. No matter what the costs, no matter what the risks, so long as the US spends years negotiating every single damn thing, that's okay with you. Is nothing worth fighting for at all? Is there no point in negotiations where the US can say "This is our final position. We will never concede or compromise on this issue?" It takes two parties to compromise, but when one completely believes in the legitimacy and righteousness of a cause that stands in direct conflict with the view held just as strongly as the other, then war is inevitable.

I only believe in war if they fired first, makes much more sense, the wars we go into lately are so retarded and pointless, aside from the Gulf Wars and Afghanistan of course. The problem is that Bush never attempted to negotiate with these countries which are in the "Axis Of Evil" and just isolated them increasing hatred towards the US. Not only that, but you entirely ignored the examples I gave.

At 11/25/09 05:48 PM, adrshepard wrote: I get the impression I'm arguing with some punk from middle school. You're throwing ideas around without understanding any of the subtleties they involve and the intellectual sophistication they require.

;

I'm sorry that we made you look like an idiot. Truly am. But the person who could have prevented that was you. Vent your heat here

So i've missed some lets continue.

Revolutionary War-AS soon it was over we started trying to go on the neutral boat.
Civil War-Ever? It wasn't fine with the US as the decades turned until it was rebuilt.
Third Punic War-Oh please this is ancient, no meaning anymore

Again, these were nations which were devastated then rebuilt all except Britain, so there's no arguement there.

Screw this. There's no way to compel you to give a straight answer, and you're not participating in good faith, even by internet forum standards. Here's hoping we never meet in person, since one of us will have to die.

jeez, HE WAS MAKING ACCOMPLICES WITH THE FUCKING EMPEROR OF CHINA TO STOP THE POPULAR WAY OF THINKING THAT AMERICANS ARE FAT, IGNORANT AND GUN-CRAZY!

he was beeing POLITE! a bow in china means that they RESPECT each other! NOT humbleness! and so, Obama was changing the popular way of thinking that americans are fat, ignorant and down right disrespectful! after Obama came to power, me myself have stopped thinking that way, and that bow improved that image even FURTER!

just stop whining.

As someone who lived in Japan (where this actually happened for those of your who think it was really in China) and worked there. Obama did nothing wrong. He was respectful but not submissive. Of course the vanilla flavored faux pundits would rather you believe otherwise. But I seriously doubt that the panel of fox and friends is the "go to" source for what is respectable in East Asia.

At 11/18/09 07:34 PM, ImaSmartass2 wrote: I agree, Obama dishonors our country, why a bow a almost 90 degrees. You bow like that, Chinamen think you are weak and rape your women.

American is run by a bowing wimp. Good thing I still have my paranoia and guns!

Good think we all do from the cold war. The enemy was not Russia, but China!

At 11/25/09 10:13 PM, adrshepard wrote: Screw this. There's no way to compel you to give a straight answer, and you're not participating in good faith, even by internet forum standards. Here's hoping we never meet in person, since one of us will have to die.

I did nothing wrong, I merely disagreed with you mostly ( I admit I did start off by calling you an idiot) but either way your just telling me that I am a bastard and that I am a punk ass 13 year old just because I disagreed with you. Thats great faith right there.

...who cares?

Obama decided to bow. I don't really know why. Maybe it was just to seem polite and keep things running smoothly, or maybe China would've been grossly offended if he hadn't and operated the Communism Conversion Chips Obama has had implanted in all our children, all I know is that it's not that big a deal.

Yeah man, bowing is so cold and distant. Obama should of been more warm and intimate for diplomatic purposes. Take this fine past president of ours. He certainly sets the best exmaple!

It was right of Obama to bow. It's to show respect for others, not to show weak leadership. Jingoism makes me sick!

I don't post a lot and am late to the party.. anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowing

Traditionally, the lower the bow, the more respect is given. In typical day-to-day meets, the bow would be short and swift. In the case of meeting a leader, a low, longer bow is standard. China has over a billion people and is a huge power. It is my understanding the bow was returned in similar fashion.

I know bowing not as common an occurrence as the western based hand shake; still its rooted in east asian culture and is still accepted. May as well mock the Chineese for giving too strong a handshake.

I'm not even an Obama supporter, but he did nothing wrong here.