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At 12/25/04 11:59 PM, JusticeofSarcasm wrote: I shouldnt have to live in fear that every womens breasts I grope while making dirty jokes and refrences to blow jobs will sue. Its bullshit. What happend to free speech.

Well, it's just like I can't go up to a woman in the middle of the street and say: "F*** you!" It's just improper. That's what happened to free-speech.

At 12/25/04 11:28 PM, FunkinAround wrote:

At 12/25/04 09:37 PM, FunkinAround wrote: Women are bitches. Simple as that.

I wasn't really saying all are, but nonetheless 85% of them are.

Is that so? Then 95% of men are dinks and assholes.

At 12/26/04 06:39 AM, bambi_206 wrote:

At 12/25/04 11:28 PM, FunkinAround wrote:

At 12/25/04 09:37 PM, FunkinAround wrote: Women are bitches. Simple as that.

I wasn't really saying all are, but nonetheless 85% of them are.

Is that so? Then 95% of men are dinks and assholes.

Such ficticious statistics lacking in any kind of evidence really ruin the valibidy of both your arguments, especially FunkinAround's because he started with his retarded claim. I suggest you do some research before making such a general claim about all women because when you say something like that, you actually help prove yourself wrong and prove bambi right because you're acting like an asshole by saying that, thus you vicariously and unwillingly support her argument with your idiocy.

Well, the way you were talking about women, FuckinAround, you seemed to be like most sexist dicks venting your anger about women and their annoying need for attention. Your post seemed to lack the sympathy or empathy more characteristic of female responses about a topic such as sexual harassment. You don't seem very compassionate to women, in that you believe the myth that most women are raped by the creep lurking in the shadows, when in fact 4/5 women are raped by someone that they know personally. So I suppose it's not really surprising that most claims of rape are blown off as attention-seeking trifles, because most people think that you can't be raped by someone you know. But whatever happened to "No means NO!"?

Here is a solution, when having sex with a woman have her fill out a form outlining what she will do and what she will do not then have her sign it. A sex contract.

At 12/26/04 06:39 AM, bambi_206 wrote: Is that so? Then 95% of men are dinks and assholes.

Wrong. Men are not more "dumb" or "smater" than women. There is no such gene inherited by gender. And again, most women aren't bitches.

At 2/27/04 04:01 PM, whatty wrote: If you were raped, you wouldn't like someone to demean your pain and suffering, not to mention vast emotional scars, in such a degrading and downright disrespectful way.

Questioning if a man is innoncent of not demeans nothing. Fuck your melodrama.

Also, maybe the marine WAS at fault. You don't know, you weren't there. You have no right to say this, just as I have no right to say he is guilty.

I have a right to say, because it's innoncet until proven guilty, in my country. As far as i'm concerned...until he is incriminated, he's innocent.

Rape/sexual assault is a serious and heinous crime.

Yes, i agree, but we're talking about niether. We're talking about sexual harrassment. Sexual harrasment is subjective, often.

But for it to get to court is a very drastic step.

lol no it's not. All it would have taken is an accusation, and it's his word against hers.

Sems funny, but then imagine a foreign object ramming away at you, and you screaming in pain and anger, sadness and rage and absolute helplessness.

oh look, momma, more melodramatic, teen-angst crap. oh goody!

At 12/27/04 03:21 AM, bambi_206 wrote: But whatever happened to "No means NO!"?

Well, it look's like women like Dunn Holly are really hurting your cause. What was that about women being more sensitive to 'things like this'?

Here's the chorus of the song, for a start.

"When I say no I mean maybe.
Baby don't you know me yet?
Nothin's worth havin' if it ain't a little hard to get.
So let me clarify so you won't have to try to guess.
When I say no I mean maybe, or maybe I mean yes."

Sounds like every rapists dream, no?

There are so many problems with the systems and stereotypes about dating and rape, and many people have issues. Someone mentioned that people always side with the woman, and that's just not true. It makes it hard for people who have been raped or assaulted to 1. tell others about it; 2. press charges. I never pressed charges when I was raped, because if my boyfriend and friends didn't believe me, why would the police? I went into the guy's house late at night with him, so I must have known what was going to happen, right? People that lie or distort the truth about the situation makes it hard for people to believe the victims, when they really are victims. It's even harder when there's only two people present, and it's not as cut and dry as a knife-wielding madman grabbing a girl in the park.

They sue for "punative damages".

Freakapotimus has it exactly right, and that's what I meant by "no means no". I'm not talking about some sappy, meldromatic country song, and if men, especially men who would rape women, take that song seriously in every encounter with a woman, then that shows the extent of their compassion, empathy, selfishmness and ability to "take the role the other". I'm sure Damien3003 posted that with a certain amount of sarcasm, but it could still lead to the question of why men treat disrespectfully women like objects is the first place. Perhaps it is societal and cultural in nature. Are we raising our sons to be rapists?

Unless a woman suffers a "good girl rape" or assault, she will probably have a seriously difficult time getting people to believe her. A "good girl rape" is the kind where the woman has "done nothing" to provoke it, like she was asleep in bed and was raped there at knifepoint, and this happens only about 20% of the time. (Sound familiar anyone, especially to you Canadians in the crowd?) Unfortunately for the 4/5 of women who are raped by someone they know, there is a widely-held belief that the "good girl rape" is the only kind of rape or assualt possible. Otherwise, people believe that the woman did something to "ask for it", and so it's her fault. That is absolutely not true. Want to know some statistics on it? These are only from memory, but something like only 1/10 rapes are reported to police, and only 4% of those result in a conviction for the rapist. This is a ridiuclous situation for women to have to endure and "just live with", that's why sexual harassment is such a serious issue. If women can't be given respect in the workplace, why would they be given it anywhere else? What's stopping men from raping women if they won't even stop their unwanted advances and flirting? And is it really getting so bad that women have to take men to court over it? I wih just as much as the next person that attention-seeking or frivolous accusations were not made nor taken to the justice system because it does make it harder for serious cases to be taken seriously. But if the situation really does warrant it, then so be it. If women have more success winning the sexual harassment cases that do matter, then perhaps more women will have enough confidence to report the more serious crimes they suffer at the hands of men. What I meant by "women being more sensitive to things like this" is that women tend to side together and not initially defend men accused of rape, sexual assault, and sexual harassment, while men defend each other as a reflex and so can lose sight of the real problem being discussed.

I agree that the marine accused is innocent until proven guilty, but that doesn't mean people aren't going to or can't take a initial position on his innocence until they know for sure. Discussion is good; that's what juries do to establish guilt. I know the guys oout there are feeling attacked, at least a little, because of all the accuasations and junk flying around nowadays, but if you really want to prove that you are trutworthy men, then show us women respect. Listen to our requests and the boundaries we set. We don't want to take you to court (most of us don't, anyway, and we don't agree with those petty, attention-seeking women who do), we just want to live in peace, comfort and safety. We are not attacking you, we are attacking the "bad men" who do this sort of thing to women, so if you truly are against rape, don't reflexively defend those men who are accused of violence against women. Help end rape and violence against women. Especially for the Canadian men in the crowd, if you want to do something positive for men and women, check out The White Ribbon Campaign.

At 12/28/04 05:59 PM, bambi_206 wrote: if men, especially men who would rape women, take that song seriously in every encounter with a woman, then that shows the extent of their compassion, empathy, selfishmness and ability to "take the role the other".

Those people don't exist. No, don't even start, don't reply to this. I'll take no heed. It's so hypothetical, i question why you even brought it up, honestly.

I'm sure Damien3003 posted that with a certain amount of sarcasm,

But, of course.

but it could still lead to the question of why men treat disrespectfully women like objects is the first place.

Because a small minority of America is stupid? Listen, you're not speaking for the majority of men. You're not even speaking of, say, 80% of men. You seem to this these 'women hating abusers' run wild, all over the place, in every facet in life...and that's fucking silly, and childish.

Perhaps it is societal and cultural in nature. Are we raising our sons to be rapists?

Are we raising daughters that want to be raped?

There. I hope you're just as offended by my question, as I was by yours.

Unfortunately for the 4/5 of women who are raped by someone they know, there is a widely-held belief that the "good girl rape" is the only kind of rape or assualt possible.

No, that's not a widely known belief. What are you? A teenage girl, most likely? And yet, you have somehow deluded yourself into thinking that you've stumbled across some...what? Secret knowledge? Something very few others know about?
That's presumptuous vanity, and nothing but.

Otherwise, people believe that the woman did something to "ask for it", and so it's her fault.

Look, a realize there may be people who think this way...BUT THEY ARE FAR AND FEW. Really.

These are only from memory, but something like only 1/10 rapes are reported to police

Maybe if more Americans put Justice before their silly, little childish pride, that stastic would be different, no?

Furthermore, how would we know that it's 1/10 of the rapes? If they aren't reported, how do we 'magically' know about them?

that's why sexual harassment is such a serious issue. If women can't be given respect in the workplace, why would they be given it anywhere else?

Sexual harrassment is subjective, and you know it. Rape is not subjective, and the two cannot be compared. Sexual harrassment, except in extreme cases, is in the eye of the beholder. Rape, however, is always rape.

What's stopping men from raping women if they won't even stop their unwanted advances and flirting?

HAHAHA. Your melodramatic, teen-angst rational tickles me pink, sister.

But if the situation really does warrant it, then so be it.

Yes, the ever-famous 'if'. 'If', by the way, makes it subjective.

If women have more success winning the sexual harassment cases that do matter, then perhaps more women will have enough confidence to report the more serious crimes they suffer at the hands of men.

Or, once again, if people put their Justice before their crybaby pride.

What I meant by "women being more sensitive to things like this" is that women tend to side together and not initially defend men accused of rape, sexual assault, and sexual harassment, while men defend each other as a reflex and so can lose sight of the real problem being discussed.

No, i defend ANYONE who has not been proven guilty in a court of law. If they haven't been proven guilty, they are innocent. Period. If you don't like it, go ahead and wipe your ass with the constitution...i ain't stoppin' you.

I agree that the marine accused is innocent until proven guilty, but that doesn't mean people aren't going to or can't take a initial position on his innocence until they know for sure.

Yes, but he's still innocent, as of right now. Don't like it? That's too fucking bad. Move to mexico, where there isn't a rock-steady system of due-process, if it do ya' fine.

Discussion is good; that's what juries do to establish guilt.

But we're not jurors, are we?

I know the guys oout there are feeling attacked, at least a little, because of all the accuasations and junk flying around nowadays, but if you really want to prove that you are trutworthy men, then show us women respect.

I'm not feeling attacked, not even a little. Because, unlike you, i don't feel the need to attach myself to situations, based on comparing my gender to anyone elses. And i show respect where respect is deserved. I don't base respect on gender, either.

so if you truly are against rape, don't reflexively defend those men who are accused of violence against women.

I reflexively defend anyone who is called guilty, before he has been proven so. That goes for men, women, and small dogs.

Help end rape and violence against women.

Rape is not ever going to 'end'. Just as murder, and petty theft will never 'go away, for good'. Let's be optimistic, but not unrealistic.

At 12/28/04 10:38 PM, FunkinAround wrote:

At 12/27/04 03:21 AM, bambi_206 wrote: A book.

The thing is, women act too much like victims anymore. I do in fact sympathize with women who have been raped. I believe there are a lot of women out there who were actually raped, and not just calling wolf sort to speak.

I know. It's because...

But there are instances when I believe women are being stupid and could have in facr prevented the rape from happening in the first place. Going to a sleezy bar by yourself, wearing something equally as sleezy as the bar, and getting wasted with a man you JUST met is NOT A GOOD IDEA!
There are some women out there who just lack the common sense to realize what they're getting themselves into. I had a friend who constantly dressed slutty everywhere she went, and you know what I keep telling her!? To watch out, you dress like that you're an easy target. We're not celebrities that have bodygaurds to protect them. We're regular girls living in a trashy town. You should know how to carry yourself so that you don't end up in a horrible situation.

Dressing in a skimpy outfit shouldn't be an invitation to rape, sexaul assault or harassment. Women should be free enough to wear what they want, go where they want, do what they want and not be fearful of being approached by men if they don't want it. This is what I'm talking about: blaming the vistim, saying she somehow provoked it. Sure, it may not be the smartest or wisest choice to wear a miniskirt to a biker bar, but it still doesn't mean you're asking for trouble.

Doesn't "no" mean "no!", no matter what you are wearing?

At 12/29/04 04:31 AM, Damien3003 wrote: Bunches of flaming insults.

Well, Damien3003, did you check out the White Ribbon Campaign site at all? Did you see their message?

I'm not saying that we should scrap your constitution (yours, not mine!) and say everyone accused of a sexual harassment or a sexual crime is guilty until proven innocent. I agree that the marine in question is innocent until proven guilty, it's just that I have more sympathy for the supposed victim because of my gender. It's easier to see it happening to me than the other way around, you know. If it turns out she's just being a whiny, attention monger, I will no longer have sympathy for her and will hope that this case does not follow the marine around and upset his future. Respect should not be doled out according to gender, but we still live in a sexist society, so it at least partly is given to each party in the case unequally.

No, I'm not a teen drama queen. Look at the profile. And please understand that when I say "men", I don't literally mean every single male person over the age of 18 in the United States of America. But it is easy and somewhat necessary to generalize. And I'm sure you agree with me that no amount of sexual harassment is acceptable, even though it may be a "subjective" offense. So why are you acting so defensively?

As for your "raising daughters wanting to be raped" comment, yes it did offend me, but only because of the blatant contradiction and the fact that you missed my point. Someone can not possibly want to be raped, because then it isn't rape. And like I said before, I didn't mean "Are we raising each and every single male child in our society to be a rapist?" I was questioning why our society has so many rapists in the first place. What's going wrong in the raising of these few violent men? Can it be prevented? What is society contributing to these people? How does it tell women to react to men? How does it protect women from acts of violence done to them by men? Why are violent crime rates going down for everything except rape and sexual assualt? What is the connection between sexual harassment and other violent, sexual crimes?

We (feminist and victim's advocate groups) estimate that 1/10 rapes in reported to the authorities, i.e. the police. Many more women use support groups to deal with what has happened to them than the number of women who report sexual crimes.

And I agree with you that we may not completely end rape or sexual assualt entirely, because of individuals who have serious mental illnesses that cause them to act that way, but the rate of violent sexual crimes is ridiculously and unnecessarily high, and is inexplicable by mental illness alone. So perhaps this is pointing to something in our gender constructions of men that is flawed. Perhaps the ideal of the powerful, dominant, forceful male is ultimately not a good one. This is something we need to address in our society. Sexual harassment suits are one tiny, frivolous way of doing that which will probably never result is much major change, but if it is the only vehicle available, I suppose women will use it.

At 12/29/04 05:21 AM, bambi_206 wrote:

At 12/29/04 04:31 AM, Damien3003 wrote: Bunches of flaming insults.

What? I insutled you once or twice, but i made a very good many valid points. If you don't respond to them, specificaly, i'll have to be forced to think that you simply aren't able.

Well, Damien3003, did you check out the White Ribbon Campaign site at all? Did you see their message?

I don't give a shit about the white ribbon campaign. If it was hailing the size of golfballs outside, and there was a group of representatives from the WRC, i'd leave them outside.
Now THAT'S a flaming insult.

I'm not saying that we should scrap your constitution (yours, not mine!) and say everyone accused of a sexual harassment or a sexual crime is guilty until proven innocent. I agree that the marine in question is innocent until proven guilty, it's just that I have more sympathy for the supposed victim because of my gender.

Right. Exactly my point, thank you for illustrating.

You're so narrow minded that you must immediately leach on to something, and defend someone, just because of their lack of or possession of a penis.
How dare you criticize anyone, with that mentality?

It's easier to see it happening to me than the other way around, you know.

No, i don't. I don't look at this as a man/women issue. Because it's not. There question is not 'do i feel bad for the person of the same gender as I". Are we children, sister?

It's law and order, consequence and recourse.
Until they prove he did it, he didn't. Until evidence that sentances him is brought forward, his accuser is no more that that: His accuser.

Respect should not be doled out according to gender, but we still live in a sexist society, so it at least partly is given to each party in the case unequally.

Your profile says you live in Russia. What the fuck would you know about living in American society?

No, I'm not a teen drama queen. Look at the profile.

Oh, well, forgive me. You're a just past twenty dram queen, then. Semantics are for children.

But it is easy and somewhat necessary to generalize.

Then, may i do the same for women? May i generalize and say 'most' women just complain about rape for the attention?

No. Generalizing is always wrong, and ignorant.

And I'm sure you agree with me that no amount of sexual harassment is acceptable, even though it may be a "subjective" offense. So why are you acting so defensively?

Because you're a neo-feminists who thinks women need to 'band together' to beat the big, bad, oppressive white male.

And i think that's a rather stupid mentality. How's that?

As for your "raising daughters wanting to be raped" comment, yes it did offend me

Good. Purpose served.

Someone can not possibly want to be raped, because then it isn't rape.

And people don't 'raise' their children to be rapists.

I was questioning why our society has so many rapists in the first place.

Oh, well, in that case, simple: People are fucked up. Now, granted, it's a small minority. But there's nothing you can do for that small minority...at least nothing you can do to prevent their unidentified mental problems from manifesting into real life harm.

What's going wrong in the raising of these few violent men?

Anything: From poor parenting, to a mental imbalance. There is no one thing, no one reason.

Can it be prevented?

No.

What is society contributing to these people?

A general sense of codemnent, both through society's eyes and through the law. No one encourages rape.

How does it tell women to react to men?

Recognize signs of potential problems, before there is a problem. That, apparently, is what we teach now-a-days.

How does it protect women from acts of violence done to them by men?

Well, there's that silly 'law' thing. I know, it's hard to fathom.

What is the connection between sexual harassment and other violent, sexual crimes?

There is no connection. The two cannot be compared, or related, in any way. Just give it up. You're grasping at straws.

We (feminist and victim's advocate groups) estimate that 1/10 rapes in reported to the authorities, i.e. the police. Many more women use support groups to deal with what has happened to them than the number of women who report sexual crimes.

Oh, so they're brave enough to help themselves, but not to identify a rapist? They, willingly, mind you, allow a rapist to go free.
I think, in support groups, we should remind women of that. I think we should remind the raped that by being a coward, their rapist goes free. I think it should be on their heads, and i hope it keeps them up every night, until they go to the authorites.

They should be forced to be held legally responsible (i think a it should be enacted into law) for not identifying a rapist. Then, theyd have no choice. Either prison, or tell us. Most rapes, the victim knows the rapist. That means, in most rapes, the victim knows the name of their rapist. Yet they hold back.

So perhaps this is pointing to something in our gender constructions of men that is flawed.

Oh, shut the fuck up, feminist. No one takes you seriously, and you fucking know it.

Perhaps the ideal of the powerful, dominant, forceful male is ultimately not a good one.

See above.

Fuck, man, did you not see that I agreed with you that he is innocent until proven guilty? Yet you still berated and denied my arguments. If this is what you do to the people who agree with you, I'd hate to see what you'd do to someone who outrightly disagrees.

My profile says Russia because most Americans are too stupid or lazy to know that Saskatchewan is a Canadian province just north of North Dakota and Montana. Yeah, that's right, just north of the border there. So I know plenty about the elephant I'm forced to sleep with (Trudeau reference).

Have you been paying attention at all to this thread? Most women know their rapist, and are therefore assumed to know better than to get themselves into that situation, therefore have an extremely difficult time getting people to believe that they were raped. Or have you just been flaming and picking apart arguements for a feeling of moral superiority and a bigger post count?

And what right does an 18-year-old drywall mechanic have to accuse me of teen-angst-ridden and melodramatic posts on a subject that I happen to feel very strongly about and that you couldn't possible understand in the same way?

The purpose of my list of questions was to get people to ask themselves these questions seriously, not to come up with a concise and all-too-easy list of answers. If you have all the answers about society's woes, why don't you go do something positive for the world and stop being such a know-it-all NG BBS dink.

Rapists don't just happen. Everyone grows up in a culture, and different cultures produce different kinds of people. What is in our culture that makes a few bad men act violently towards women?

Quoted from Damien3003: "Generalizing is always wrong."

And they told Nellie McClung that nobody took her seriously, either.

At 12/29/04 04:31 AM, Damien3003 wrote:

At 12/28/04 05:59 PM, bambi_206 wrote: Unfortunately for the 4/5 of women who are raped by someone they know, there is a widely-held belief that the "good girl rape" is the only kind of rape or assualt possible.

No, that's not a widely known belief. What are you? A teenage girl, most likely? And yet, you have somehow deluded yourself into thinking that you've stumbled across some...what? Secret knowledge? Something very few others know about?
That's presumptuous vanity, and nothing but.

It is a wide-spread belief. If a woman was raped, and it was revealed that she had sex with someone--anyone--just an hour before the attack, they are less likely to believe her story. If a woman wears sexy lingerie on a date with a man who later rapes her, they are less likely to believe her story. If a woman enters a male friend's house when no one else is home, they are less likely to believe her story.

At 12/29/04 07:04 AM, bambi_206 wrote: Fuck, man, did you not see that I agreed with you that he is innocent until proven guilty?

Yes, i saw that. I saw where you said you felt for the suppossed 'victim' simply because you share the same genitalia. THAT'S what I was berating, sister.

My profile says Russia because most Americans are too stupid or lazy to know that Saskatchewan is a Canadian province just north of North Dakota and Montana.

And have you ever lived in America, out of curiosity?

Most women know their rapist,

This was also part of my point. You're doing fine, so far.

and are therefore assumed to know better than to get themselves into that situation,

Ah, here's the flaw. It is not 'assumed by anyone but a very very small percentage of ignorant people. Notice i used the word 'people' instead of the generalizing term of 'all men'.

therefore have an extremely difficult time getting people to believe that they were raped.

Once again, here's my point. Very few assume the female in question is simply 'making it up'. Just as we're to assume the accussed innocence, we're also to assume the suppossed victims credibility. Until one or the other is proven incorrect, niether is guitly. No, you don't have to follow that, because you don't live in America...yet, i'm one hundred percent sure Canada has the same process. I know for a fact that Candada's legal system is not 'guilty until proven innocent'.

Or have you just been flaming and picking apart arguements for a feeling of moral superiority and a bigger post count?

I'm simply pointing out the mistakes in your way of thinking. If the you can do is complain about this debate, and not stay on subject...don't even bother posting.

And what right does an 18-year-old drywall mechanic have to accuse me of teen-angst-ridden and melodramatic posts

What do I have, so as to accuse you? Maybe post after post filled up with feminist melo-drama? You're nothing new, sister. America has been taking your kind with a grain of salt since you broke into the scene.

on a subject that I happen to feel very strongly about

That means nothing. I feel very strongly about applying hydrogen technology to everyday life...yet I still am not a Hydrogen scientist, am I?

and that you couldn't possible understand in the same way?

HAHAHa. Oh, the funny. Let me guess...i couldn't possibly understand because i'm an evil ol' MAN aren't I? I got a dick, therefore i have no idea the so called 'trappings' of being a women in a free country, do I?

For being a feminist, one who attempts to seek equal rights...you sure are a huge fucking sexist, sister.

The purpose of my list of questions was to get people to ask themselves these questions seriously, not to come up with a concise and all-too-easy list of answers.

My answers were honest, and correct. Until you can post them, and refute it, it shall remain that way.

If you have all the answers about society's woes, why don't you go do something positive for the world and stop being such a know-it-all NG BBS dink.

Because there's nothing that can be done to stop murder, and rape, and child abuse, and armed robbery. I live in America, where the occasional crime is not the exception to the rule, but the rule itself. It's axiomatic.

Rapists don't just happen. Everyone grows up in a culture, and different cultures produce different kinds of people. What is in our culture that makes a few bad men act violently towards women?

The same thing that's been in EVERY culture, since the beggining of time. Mayhaps it's mental problems, mayhaps it's poor parenting, mayhaps it's none of the above. There is no one reason. You won't 'stop' rape. Get over it.

Quoted from Damien3003: "Generalizing is always wrong."
And they told Nellie McClung that nobody took her seriously, either.

This feminist, now dead and in the ground, has no effect on my statement, and changes nothing.

Generlizing is still axiomatically wrong.

At 12/29/04 03:53 PM, Freakapotimus wrote:

That's presumptuous vanity, and nothing but.

It is a wide-spread belief.

Oh! you've been privelaged to the same secret, long-withheld knowledge as the good and righteous bambi, then, yes?

Honestly, you're making assumptions. You'll be hard pressed to find these people. And yes, i'm recognizing their existance..but only as a minority. Just as racists are the minority of most human beings.

If a woman was raped, and it was revealed that she had sex with someone--anyone--just an hour before the attack, they are less likely to believe her story.

Who's less likely? Some hypothetical person? All of America?

Again. This is presumptuous vanity, and you have nothing to back up your claim.

If a woman wears sexy lingerie on a date with a man who later rapes her, they are less likely to believe her story. If a woman enters a male friend's house when no one else is home, they are less likely to believe her story.

See above.

At 2/26/04 02:56 AM, Phoenix_Guitarist wrote: This is obviously a pretty big subject. Because, Its something that 100% of all men Fear when going out on a date.

I just watched on the news, how a Marine is being accused of Sexual harassment. The girl has no visible scars or bruises, but just a testimony that after drinking alot, she said "no" and now its in trial.

I'm not saying that He's innocent. Being a marine Myself, I'd like to believe that he is innocent. But the point is, that even if he was, the girl is still almost guarenteed to win.

I just dont think that its Fair for a boy and a girl to sleep together. then the next day he says some kinda joke for his friends, and the girl gets pissed and says "he raped me".

its nto fair at all.

Aye, it isn't fair :-/. That's why it's essential that you have some sort of recording device... say a tape recorder or video camera or somethin' throughout the entire courtship process. You can never be too careful ~_^. Our law system is... meh. By the way, thank you for joining the Marines. We don't spend enough time thanking the Armed Forces.

At 12/29/04 04:01 PM, Pyrrho wrote: By the way, thank you for joining the Marines. We don't spend enough time thanking the Armed Forces.

I second that, heartily. Sometimes Newgrounds, in general, thinks of our volunteer soldiers as something of a political tool, to use on way or another. We don't spend denough time giving thanks, you are correct.

Now, of course, we'll be flamed by all the liberals, for giving respect to the troops. Steel yourself, pyrrho.

At 12/29/04 04:00 PM, Damien3003 wrote: See above.

My website is down at the moment so I cannot get to the bibliography for my research paper. I'll get you a list of journal articles on the topic, many of which contain figures for the "generalities" I mentioned above.

At 12/29/04 05:27 PM, Freakapotimus wrote:

At 12/29/04 04:00 PM, Damien3003 wrote: See above.

My website is down at the moment so I cannot get to the bibliography for my research paper. I'll get you a list of journal articles on the topic, many of which contain figures for the "generalities" I mentioned above.

Doesn't even matter, don't bother showing me. Why, you ask? Because your figures A) come from a sample of some kind, as all do. And we all know sample polls don't always speak for the majority, and B) Your percentages, even if i took them at face value, would not make 50% of men in America.

So get over it, you fail.

Looks like Damien is opening a proverbial can of "whoop ass" today...

At 12/29/04 05:27 PM, Freakapotimus wrote:

At 12/29/04 04:00 PM, Damien3003 wrote: Stupid pig-headed shit that doesn't really warrant a response, but I guess we'll try anyway.

My website is down at the moment so I cannot get to the bibliography for my research paper. I'll get you a list of journal articles on the topic, many of which contain figures for the "generalities" I mentioned above.

Freakapotimus, it's obvious that Damien3003 is not going to listen to anything we say, afterall, we are just "hysterical women". He's going to continue his pig-headed discussion until the end of time claiming that our statistics are wrong, or that our samples do not speak for the majority, or that he's "only pointing out the mistakes in our way of thinking". He claims that our lack of penises makes us unnable to understand this issue, so no matter what kind of reliable evidence you can produce, be it case studies and actual personal examples without generalities, he won't buy it. All in the name of "justice", he claims.

By the way, did you know that one study found 1/4 men would commit rape if they had the chance?

At 12/29/04 04:09 PM, Damien3003 wrote:

At 12/29/04 04:01 PM, Pyrrho wrote: By the way, thank you for joining the Marines. We don't spend enough time thanking the Armed Forces.

I second that, heartily. Sometimes Newgrounds, in general, thinks of our volunteer soldiers as something of a political tool, to use on way or another. We don't spend denough time giving thanks, you are correct.

Now, of course, we'll be flamed by all the liberals, for giving respect to the troops. Steel yourself, pyrrho.

Liberals (like it's an insult) do not think any and all military service is wrong. Where would this world be without the Blue Berets? What we think is wrong is an unjust, avoidable, unnecessary war that kills civilians and military personnel. We are especially opposed to the idea of pre-emptive strikes, because they could put the word in danger of nuclear holocaust and another "war to end all wars". The American military might recieve more thanks (it would be more deserving of it) if it concentrated heavily on humanitarian peacekeeping opperations rather than simply defending or securing America's interests. Do you think liberals want American troops to die? That's the reason they oppose the war! They don't think any strong, brave, young Americans whould be put to death by a government that places little value on thier lives compared to the military prize before them! We don't hate you for respecting the troops, just for thinking that war is the right way to get things done.

At 12/29/04 06:07 PM, bambi_206 wrote: Freakapotimus, it's obvious that Damien3003 is not going to listen to anything we say, afterall, we are just "hysterical women".

Ah, the more challenging and in-depth my responses get, the less and less you attempt to refute them. Victory is nigh at hand, in this debate, sister.

And no, you're not hysterical...just...naive. You'll grow out of it. You'll probably grow out of that feminism, too. Most do.

He's going to continue his pig-headed discussion until the end of time claiming that our statistics are wrong,

No, no. I realize that there are a percentage of American men who think they way you have described. Is it right? Of course not. Is it intolerable? Why, yes. Should we, and do i, discourage this kind of way of ignorant thinking? Yes, we, and I, do.
But you're making it sound like there's a HUGE majority of men who just run around, sexual, phyiscally, and mentally abusing women.

And i'm clearly saying you have no statistic to speak for the majority of America.

or that our samples do not speak for the majority

lol they don't. Do you really attempt to insinuate that MOST men think of women as objects, to be fucked, and thrown away?

or that he's "only pointing out the mistakes in our way of thinking".

Well, i am. You're two extremists in a thread full of moderates.

He claims that our lack of penises makes us unnable to understand this issue,

No, no. That's you. You've been saying 'because damien doesn't have a vagina...how can he POSSIBLY understand our poor, downtrodden, abused situation? He can't, because he's not a girl'.

I'm the one being empathetic here, sister.

so no matter what kind of reliable evidence you can produce,

You've provided none. Her site was conveniently 'down', remember?

be it case studies and actual personal examples without generalities,

You're missing the point. I'm not denying the fact that some women get raped, and abused. I'm with you on that. I want you to understand that, i want you to hear me very well. I do not support this kind of abusive behavior. Nor do i condone men who think this way. My full sympathy and empthay, from the bottom of my beating heart, goes out to these women. I encourage any and all women who've been victim of a man's misguided, mean-spiritied abuse to seek help, immediatly. Forego your pride, please. Catch the abuser, and stop him. Do no be so vain as to allow your own 'image in the society', your 'fear of reproach' to stop you.
Justice comes first...stopping these men comes first...then tend to your pride.

he won't buy it. All in the name of "justice", he claims.

All i've said, regarding justice, is that a man, or woman, is innocent until proven guilty. Period. There is no if, and, or buts. We cannot justifiably assume the accused is guilty, just as we cannot justifiably assume the accusor is a liar looking for attention.

By the way, did you know that one study found 1/4 men would commit rape if they had the chance?

Which study? How many men were interviewd, out of curiosity?

And, let me ask you a delicate question, because i think it will explain a lot. You don't have to answer, and probably wont.

Have you or freak ever been victim to a man's abuse? Perhaps rape, or mental abuse?

I'm betting you both have. That would explain, and almost justify, your extremist views.

At 12/29/04 05:58 PM, Pyrrho wrote: Looks like Damien is opening a proverbial can of "whoop ass" today...

Ah, yes, i've been trying. Though i must say, brother, that is has not been hard, at all. It seldom is, when it comes to a feminist's arguement. They're a dying breed, you know. Society is showing less and less interest in them...they are less useful, everyday. And they know it.

At 12/29/04 06:15 PM, bambi_206 wrote:

By the way, thank you for joining the Marines. We don't spend enough time thanking the Armed Forces.

I second that, heartily. Sometimes Newgrounds, in general, thinks of our volunteer soldiers as something of a political tool, to use on way or another. We don't spend denough time giving thanks, you are correct.
Now, of course, we'll be flamed by all the liberals, for giving respect to the troops. Steel yourself, pyrrho.

Liberals (like it's an insult)

I never said it was, to you. Now, if you called me a liberal, i may take offense.

What we think is wrong is an unjust, avoidable, unnecessary war that kills civilians and military personnel.

Yea, yea. I know. I've heard it a million times. Sometimes, however, it seems your spend more time on complainging about the way, and less time being proud of your troops.

The American military might recieve more thanks (it would be more deserving of it) if it concentrated heavily on humanitarian peacekeeping opperations rather than simply defending or securing America's interests.

The appreciation and thanks of the troops should have nothing to do with the reason our government decided to go to war. They are two seperate entities.

That's the reason they oppose the war!

The oppose the war because of their pacifistic, anti-war, anti-authority stance. Most, anyway. Wouldn't want to generalize, now would i? :)

They don't think any strong, brave, young Americans whould be put to death by a government that places little value on thier lives compared to the military prize before them!

We have an all volunteer army. They chose to go to war....the government didn't force them.

We don't hate you for respecting the troops, just for thinking that war is the right way to get things done.

Your hate is confining, sister. I don't hate liberals, i just know their ideas are inapplicable.

Hating someone for their political leaning is ignorant.

I do not consider myself a conservative. I do not consider myself a liberal. More of an independent thinker with lefist connotations ^_^. War is a last resort. I highly opposed entering the war in Iraq. Innocent Iraqi were bombed and our American brethren have been murdered by Iraqi insurrectionists. Hussein was not a threat to the US. They did not have the military capabilities or the resources to produce weapons of mass destruction due to UN sanctioning and investigations. Whatever happened to bin Laden? Why was the focus shifted from al-Qaida to Hussein? Why haven't we confronted the Saudis? Why didn't we directly address North Korea instead of going through China first? There were more pressing matters at hand than Hussein. Now, I'm not defending the man. He was a brutal dictator. I'm just saying we had/have bigger fish to fry. And now we've gotten off topic of sexual harrasment. So to redeem myself, sexual harrasment is bad for you. Don't do it!

At 12/29/04 06:31 PM, Pyrrho wrote: I do not consider myself a conservative. I do not consider myself a liberal. More of an independent thinker with lefist connotations ^_^.

That's cool. I can respect that.

War is a last resort. I highly opposed entering the war in Iraq. Innocent Iraqi were bombed and our American brethren have been murdered by Iraqi insurrectionists. Hussein was not a threat to the US. They did not have the military capabilities or the resources to produce weapons of mass destruction due to UN sanctioning and investigations.

He's got it! (But if I had written exactly that, Damien would have torn it apart, and all because I am a feminist "extremist".) Now why do some Americans still think that Saddam was involved in 9/11 and had nuclear capabilities?

Whatever happened to bin Laden? Why was the focus shifted from al-Qaida to Hussein? Why haven't we confronted the Saudis? Why didn't we directly address North Korea instead of going through China first?

Now those are some questions!

:There were more pressing matters at hand than Hussein. Now, I'm not defending the man. He was a brutal dictator.

That's my point as well, just not as concisely put. I'm sure Damien3003 appreciates the bite-size arguement you put forth, as he seems to have an issue with generalizations (can't seem to wrap his mind around them).

:I'm just saying we had/have bigger fish to fry. And now we've gotten off topic of sexual harrasment. So to redeem myself, sexual harrasment is bad for you. Don't do it!

Thank you. That's pretty much all I've wanted to hear for the last few days (with perhaps some more intellectual and philosphical discussion about it and what should [societally] done about it), rather than Damien3003's rambling about generalizations and how they are not good for you. What's the real issue? Did anyone check out the White Ribbon Campaign's site yet? (I don't care what you think, Damien3003, you don't even bother, I won't read you post anyways.)