Forum Topic: The universe we see is an illusion

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amaterasu

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Posted at: 11/9/09 10:27 PM

amaterasu LIGHT LEVEL 08

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Think about it - although we have now theories about faster than light travel, we still have only been able to observe the universe through the electromagnetic spectrum. Since all the forms of radiation we have observed fall within the spectrum, we know the "age" of an image observed in space is dependent on how far away it is. So for instance, since the Andromeda galaxy is 2.5 mega light years away, the current image we see of it is 2.5 million years old.

Because of this, we have absolutely no idea what is going on there now, in our current frame of time. All we know about it is what we see from 2.5 million years ago.

So if we finally find a planet hosting life, say, 40 light years from here, that evidence for life, provided we can still only observe via the electromagnetic spectrum at that point, will be from 40 years ago, meaning they'll still be listening to good music and dropping acid. Damn. (joke)

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Chymeraxe

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Posted at: 11/9/09 10:29 PM

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Then what's behind the illusion man.

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Digital-Terror

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Posted at: 11/9/09 10:29 PM

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It's ALL an illusion created by our brains to fool us into thinking we're actually conscious.

Go to this fucking blog right now: http://inyourfaceheh.blogspot.com/

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knightsofthecircle

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Posted at: 11/9/09 10:31 PM

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You do realize time itself is an illusion, right? And that mankind invented the concept of time to tell how things progress?

Although, the 70's acid joke was pretty funny, I'll admit.

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amaterasu

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Posted at: 11/9/09 10:31 PM

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for the record, I'm in no way claiming this idea is original.

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Chymeraxe

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Posted at: 11/9/09 10:32 PM

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At 11/9/09 10:31 PM, amaterasu wrote: for the record, I'm in no way claiming this idea is original.

That's what sucks about living today, there's nothing that's original anymore.

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Evark

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Posted at: 11/9/09 10:34 PM

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What about our observations make them not real in the way that 'illusion' implies?

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Unfortunatewinner88

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Posted at: 11/9/09 10:37 PM

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Everything is an illusion, as reality is only as real as you make it. We only perceive these things as real so that feel that we actually know what we think we know.
To me, trees are made of waffles and the roads are paved with lollipops.

I'm glad we had this talk.

Let Chaos Reign Supreme...

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Psychopathic-Mind

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Posted at: 11/9/09 10:37 PM

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I just happened to be reading up on the universe when this topic was posted. And though it's true we're looking at things that already happened, it's still interesting.

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Minion777

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Posted at: 11/9/09 10:38 PM

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Silly bitch, my 2/2 blue creature counter is an Illusion.

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DO ANY OF YOU BOYS LIVE IN VIRGINIA?!
JAKE HEDGEWICK

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amaterasu

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Posted at: 11/9/09 10:39 PM

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At 11/9/09 10:34 PM, Evark wrote: What about our observations make them not real in the way that 'illusion' implies?
At 11/9/09 10:27 PM, amaterasu wrote: Because of this, we have absolutely no idea what is going on there now, in our current frame of time. All we know about it is what we see from 2.5 million years ago.

In other words, we do not know what type of configuration far far away matter is in at our current frame of time. All we see is the light, gamma rays, radio waves, etc that has been emitted by said matter.

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Slosha69

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Posted at: 11/9/09 10:59 PM

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The universe is one big mind fuck. It sucks that we will never know how it all works. With everything that is going on in the universe, it really makes our life a meaningless 'illusion.'

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Lagatag

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Posted at: 11/9/09 10:59 PM

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This is true about the planets with life, which is why we are more interested in finding a planet where it could be possible for life to evolve, and not just straight up find life.
It's hard enough to find Earth sized planets or moons in a habitable zone, it'd be impossible to actually determine if there's life until we get much better technology.


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Elemental-Sword

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Posted at: 11/9/09 11:04 PM

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oh man honors physics thanks man, those are some good memories...

Those who come here with hate (and if your a douchebag) leave now, for hatred will only betray you.


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Evark

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Posted at: 11/9/09 11:16 PM

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At 11/9/09 10:39 PM, amaterasu wrote: In other words, we do not know what type of configuration far far away matter is in at our current frame of time. All we see is the light, gamma rays, radio waves, etc that has been emitted by said matter.

But it doesn't matter what frame of time we're in: it's still reality. Like, are the dinosaurs not real because we can't directly observe them? No, we have evidence and thanks to a basic understanding of a number of different premises we are able to extrapolate what we imagine the reality to be with an increasing level of accuracy as more information is present.

It's not that there is an illusion, it's that there's lack of clarity. I mean, the argument you're making is that we don't KNOW anything, we don't SEE anything, etc. That's a philosophical consideration that many may agree with, but when it comes to claiming that reality is an illusion, the argument has overstepped its bounds.

Human observation or understanding is not necessary for something to be real. Anyway, you're referring to a concept of science that becomes incredibly important at the quantum scale. We don't even have to travel those great distances you suggest to be unable to observe, we can simply change the scale of size (which, interestingly enough, is related to speed... as something approaches light speed length is distorted as well as time). At the subatomic level, humans are unable to (directly) observe changes. Why? Because our methods of observation are such that we must induce change in the system in order to observe it. In order to 'see' something, we need light. Light is, at it's smallest, a single subatomic particle called a photon. How do we see a reaction on the subatomic scale if only one photon is emitted, or none?

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amaterasu

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Posted at: 11/9/09 11:31 PM

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At 11/9/09 11:16 PM, Evark wrote:
At 11/9/09 10:39 PM, amaterasu wrote: In other words, we do not know what type of configuration far far away matter is in at our current frame of time. All we see is the light, gamma rays, radio waves, etc that has been emitted by said matter.
But it doesn't matter what frame of time we're in: it's still reality. Like, are the dinosaurs not real because we can't directly observe them? No, we have evidence and thanks to a basic understanding of a number of different premises we are able to extrapolate what we imagine the reality to be with an increasing level of accuracy as more information is present.

You're not even arguing against that point...I haven't said anything about what exists in reality or not. Just that what we observe of the universe is not what is actually going on at that place in space in the given instant. Did I say anything about what is real or not? No. But an illusion is a mind trick, seeing something that isn't there. What we see, isn't what is necessary there.

It's not that there is an illusion, it's that there's lack of clarity. I mean, the argument you're making is that we don't KNOW anything, we don't SEE anything, etc. That's a philosophical consideration that many may agree with, but when it comes to claiming that reality is an illusion, the argument has overstepped its bounds.

No, I'm not making that argument at all. We know plenty and we have seen a lot, at least within the bounds of our means of observation at this point. And I never said reality is an illusion, just that the universe we can actually observe at this point, is. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Human observation or understanding is not necessary for something to be real. Anyway, you're referring to a concept of science that becomes incredibly important at the quantum scale. We don't even have to travel those great distances you suggest to be unable to observe, we can simply change the scale of size (which, interestingly enough, is related to speed... as something approaches light speed length is distorted as well as time). At the subatomic level, humans are unable to (directly) observe changes. Why? Because our methods of observation are such that we must induce change in the system in order to observe it. In order to 'see' something, we need light. Light is, at it's smallest, a single subatomic particle called a photon. How do we see a reaction on the subatomic scale if only one photon is emitted, or none?

Again, I never said anything about what's real or not, just that we are observing an old image of the universe, and we currently have no way to know what is actually going on at those points in space right now. I think you read into this whole thing just a little too much..

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Sensationalism

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Posted at: 11/9/09 11:36 PM

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It's all Maya, baby.

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ThePortalGuru

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Posted at: 11/9/09 11:51 PM

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Yup, the universe is an illusion. Which one'll you be taking?

The universe we see is an illusion

Thanks aplenty to Phobotech for the great user icon.

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amaterasu

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Posted at: 11/9/09 11:52 PM

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At 11/9/09 11:51 PM, ThePortalGuru wrote: Yup, the universe is an illusion. Which one'll you be taking?

Red, please.

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ThePortalGuru

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Posted at: 11/9/09 11:54 PM

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At 11/9/09 11:52 PM, amaterasu wrote:
At 11/9/09 11:51 PM, ThePortalGuru wrote: Yup, the universe is an illusion. Which one'll you be taking?
Red, please.

Are you sure, Neo?

The universe we see is an illusion

Thanks aplenty to Phobotech for the great user icon.

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amaterasu

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Posted at: 11/10/09 12:06 AM

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At 11/9/09 11:54 PM, ThePortalGuru wrote:
At 11/9/09 11:52 PM, amaterasu wrote:
At 11/9/09 11:51 PM, ThePortalGuru wrote: Yup, the universe is an illusion. Which one'll you be taking?
Red, please.
Are you sure, Neo?

Only if all you are offering is the truth, nothing more....

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OneLastCaress

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Posted at: 11/10/09 12:12 AM

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de ja vu means they changed something.

I've got something to say...

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ThePortalGuru

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Posted at: 11/10/09 12:12 AM

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At 11/10/09 12:06 AM, amaterasu wrote:
At 11/9/09 11:54 PM, ThePortalGuru wrote:
At 11/9/09 11:52 PM, amaterasu wrote:
At 11/9/09 11:51 PM, ThePortalGuru wrote: Yup, the universe is an illusion. Which one'll you be taking?
Red, please.
Are you sure, Neo?
Only if all you are offering is the truth, nothing more....

Here you are...

The universe we see is an illusion

Thanks aplenty to Phobotech for the great user icon.

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Gagsy

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Posted at: 11/10/09 12:16 AM

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The problem is that you're thinking like a human.

The universe is above us completely. We couldn't even begin to imagine what lies beyond all we can see or think. The universe is so vast and likely never ending that it's impossible to know what's out there.

It certainly is no illusion though, it's our lord and master. We bow to it and no one else.

Did your life flash before your eyes?
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amaterasu

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Posted at: 11/10/09 12:19 AM

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At 11/10/09 12:16 AM, Gagsy wrote: The problem is that you're thinking like a human.

The universe is above us completely. We couldn't even begin to imagine what lies beyond all we can see or think. The universe is so vast and likely never ending that it's impossible to know what's out there.

It certainly is no illusion though, it's our lord and master. We bow to it and no one else.

Of course I'm thinking like a human, that's my frame of reference. I wouldn't know what an illusion would be to a bird, or a rock.

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SteveGuzzi

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Posted at: 11/10/09 12:30 AM

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In an example more easy to relate to, even "live" TV and radio are usually broadcast on a slight delay.

When you actually believe that what you're presently observing must necessarily be occurring at the same exact moment you're observing it... then sure, you're operating under a type of illusion. When you realize that time distortion occurs during transit then it ceases to be a per-se illusion and is instead just another fact of the matter.

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Fantast3cles

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Posted at: 11/10/09 01:35 AM

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its all a cycle. this cycle will end 2012


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Ranchero

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Posted at: 11/10/09 01:49 AM

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Some of the stars we see do not even exist anymore. We are like a little leaf in a forest, our lifespan is far too short and we are far too insignificant to figure out how the entire forest works ... that's how my astronomy prof. put it at least.

This Ranch Dressing is making me thirsty.

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Fleuve

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Posted at: 11/10/09 01:56 AM

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Its not an illusion.

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Supasang

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Posted at: 11/11/09 10:55 PM

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i dont understand you all so i say no it is not

Yea thats right Supasang posted here deal with it


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