Muslims aren't real Americans.

[Stoicish]

Okay.

Fort Hood, horrible tragedy. I might not be in the Army, but I did lose fellow brothers in arms and it pains me to know that families are going to sleep tonight know that their children will never return to them alive.

Moving on from that it's time to move right on to current conscientious thought about a few angry Americans.

Hasan is a nut, yet this doesn't detract from the revamp of anti-Islamic sentiments that are prevailing through this country. When I saw his name all I could think was, "FUCK!" I myself was angry and thought this was an attack until I knew more details.

However the fearful eyes of this nation tends to point fingers at something that they just don't understand.

So now, more and more, I am seeing comments on the Internet and just from people that point Islamic culture as a whole that bread this kind of violence. That any day another Muslim person could snap and just start wiping out any average American.

If you were watching Fox and Friends recently you would see that empty panel of thoughtless group say things like, "special screenings" and "if I'm in a foxhole I don't want the person next to me to shoot me." Then we move on to blog posts from other people who say that all Muslim people serving the Army are not serving the US, but their own religion.

Why? That angered me so much because I trained with one before. He was a shy person to be in the Marines, but he joined because he wanted to fight for his country. That's the most respectable thing regardless of a persons religion.

It makes me furious to think that people say that we have to treat these soldiers and marines as second class citizens because we are just afraid of their religion.

It's ignorance on a huge mob mentality style.

The military isn't stupid either despite what people may believe. Yeah, it's bogged down by bureaucracy, but they are more watchful of a persons attitude and behavior than you may think. This one managed to slip through the cracks because he happened to be an officer. I digress anyway.

I wonder what everyone else thought are on this sort of attitude.

[ReiperX]

It's a bad attitude to have.

I worked with two Muslim Marines while I was serving, one of them was a complete idiot and had no idea how to do his job, and the other was slightly above average. Both of them went to Iraq and served during the invasion.

I never had a chance to talk to them about their views on the war, but they are just as American as anyone else.

One of the unfortunate things about the shooter is that he apparently was treated very poorly due to being a Muslim. I'm not trying to say that it's ok for him to go on the shooting spree, because it's a horrible thing, but if people actually acted American (you know freedom of religion) then there is a chance that this may not have happened in the first place.

[amaterasu]

What were you expecting? These are probably the same idiots that sent waves of Japanese people to internment camps after the pearl harbor bombings.

[gumOnShoe]

At 11/9/09 08:55 AM, amaterasu wrote: What were you expecting? These are probably the same idiots that sent waves of Japanese people to internment camps after the pearl harbor bombings.

The path to a Holocaust is paved with the demonetization of a culture for the illusion of security.

[amaterasu]

At 11/9/09 08:58 AM, gumOnShoe wrote: The path to a Holocaust is paved with the demonetization of a culture for the illusion of security.

Amen brother.

[Elfer]

As soon as I saw this story I was like "Man if you're going to shoot up your military base you can at least try not to have a Muslim-sounding name."

[KeithHybrid]

Methinks the OP just thinks that way because he saw that jumping jacks video...

[lapis]

At 11/9/09 09:05 AM, Elfer wrote: As soon as I saw this story I was like "Man if you're going to shoot up your military base you can at least try not to have a Muslim-sounding name."

And, assuming that the witness accounts are true, you can try not to yell "Allahu Akbar" before opening fire.

[morefngdbs]

At 11/9/09 08:58 AM, gumOnShoe wrote:

At 11/9/09 08:55 AM, amaterasu wrote: What were you expecting? These are probably the same idiots that sent waves of Japanese people to internment camps after the pearl harbor bombings.

Knee jerk reactions are what you get when people in charge want to 'simplify' their problems.
You have an enemy , the country of which is inhabited for the most part by a different ethnic or race than you & the bulk of your country are...so you make all citizens that have that background into a category . You label that catagory 'high risk' & then you deal with it.
Which unfortunately means everyone in the group suffers even though, they may be as good a citizen as any other.

The path to a Holocaust is paved with the demonetization of a culture for the illusion of security.

;;;
Exactly Gum, when we stop looking at people on an individual level, we are making a huge mistake as far as I'm concerned.
BUT
In my opinion, some cultures have 'values' that I personally find distasteful.
One of the muslim practices that I am very disturbed by , is the treating of women as 2nd class citzens.
Many muslim countries, it is impossible for a female to get an education, drive a car, own their own property !That is extremely fucked up.
I don't believe anyone from a culture like that should be able to bring that value to my country, Canada.
I also find the sharia law system that is operating in many countries that are not muslim, by people who are now citizens of that country to be wrong & l believe it should be outlawed & anyone found participating in it, needs to be brought before the courts & dealt with accordingly.
There is one rule of law in Canada & IMO everyone should be held up to that system...no other system should be allowed.
Is this 'demonizing' muslim's , perhaps they might think so.
But I believe that if the system that I am responible to, is the same one you are held accountable to as well, that is the way it should be, because we are all held accountable the same.

Another terrible system is the caste system seen in India as an example. Hindu's & others believe that some people are lower & have less worth than they themselves & they may believe they are under or of a lesser class than others. It has no place in Canada, it really IMO has no place anywhere. But these people carry their predjudices with them when they immigrate, & it needs to be stopped.
IS this wrong, just because no an 'untouchable' can live next door to you or send their children to the same school as yours ?
Not in my view, but they see it differently. They see it as a hardship .

But I see no reason that they shouldn't have to change...they came to our country, if you want to become a Canadian, you need to behave like the citizens of Canada do. Which means you have to be willing to make some changes.

[ArmouredGRIFFON]

Can we remind you that America is a country with a little bit of everything... Your nearly as inbread as we are across the Jolly Ol' Atlantic

[gumOnShoe]

At 11/9/09 01:09 PM, morefngdbs wrote: In my opinion, some cultures have 'values' that I personally find distasteful.
One of the muslim practices that I am very disturbed by , is the treating of women as 2nd class citzens.
Many muslim countries, it is impossible for a female to get an education, drive a car, own their own property !That is extremely fucked up.

Yeah, but it was only 100 years ago that women didn't have those rights here in America and in Europe and it isn't Islam that enforces those ideas. I'd argue that in many cases this is an old world vs new world transition that just hasn't happened everywhere yet and eventually will if there is enough social upheaval. Not every Islamic country follows strict shariah law, and both Christianity and Judaism have sects which are just as harsh if not more so. For instance, the Hasidic Jews believe in something called the voice of a woman which says that women should not sing in public or they will be enticing men into sexual thoughts. But, that's only Hasidic Jews. Reconstructionist, Reform Conservative, and Orthodox all have different values and expectations.

Its similar in the Muslim world. I've known several Muslims through out my life who simply do not follow those traditions.

I don't believe anyone from a culture like that should be able to bring that value to my country, Canada.

I'd agree. But don't let yourself make global generalizations due to a minority.

I also find the sharia law system that is operating in many countries that are not muslim, by people who are now citizens of that country to be wrong & l believe it should be outlawed & anyone found participating in it, needs to be brought before the courts & dealt with accordingly.
There is one rule of law in Canada & IMO everyone should be held up to that system...no other system should be allowed.

That's a different issue. If you have people breaking the laws of Canada to uphold their own brand of justice, then Canada needs to deal with that, but that is generally a cultural choice and not a religious one.

Another terrible system is the caste system seen in India as an example. Hindu's & others believe that some people are lower & have less worth than they themselves & they may believe they are under or of a lesser class than others. It has no place in Canada, it really IMO has no place anywhere. But these people carry their predjudices with them when they immigrate, & it needs to be stopped.

Again, these are cultural problems that go away with generations if you accept them into your community. Not everything is resolved easily, but you can't hate them all because of a few extremists.

But I see no reason that they shouldn't have to change...they came to our country, if you want to become a Canadian, you need to behave like the citizens of Canada do. Which means you have to be willing to make some changes.

I'd agree to a point and I think that point is the point at which you are forcing them to be something they aren't. If they aren't doing anything to specifically affect you, I say let them be. And if they are trying to change the government, its a democratic style government, let the majority rule.

[Jon-86]

At 11/9/09 09:05 AM, Elfer wrote: As soon as I saw this story I was like "Man if you're going to shoot up your military base you can at least try not to have a Muslim-sounding name."

My name is Jon if I decided to practice Islam tomorrow would I have a Muslim sounding name?

That is the wrong attitude people are talking about, religion is a global thing, anyone can believe in any god so why discriminate based on a name. Its as daft as thinking Obama is evil because Hussain is in his name.

The sooner people realise their government is using this as a way to control them through fear the better. The government works for you, not the other way around. Use your head and make them do what you want not what they want you to do.

Just look at Iran now. I joked with my friends back when I was in high school when we heard about the proposed invasion of Iraq. My exact words were "they will probably be after Iran after that" and I tell you I should have put £5 on that as it looks likely they will try their damnedest to get the American public to support it.

Even though the average man and woman in Iran is just trying to get on with their lives the same way the average man or woman is in the states or over here.

[Elfer]

At 11/9/09 02:16 PM, Jon-86 wrote:

At 11/9/09 09:05 AM, Elfer wrote: As soon as I saw this story I was like "Man if you're going to shoot up your military base you can at least try not to have a Muslim-sounding name."

My name is Jon if I decided to practice Islam tomorrow would I have a Muslim sounding name?

No. What I'm saying is, people who believe that Muslims are part of a global conspiracy to wipe out the American race are especially stupid, and will latch onto this guy as "proof"

Wouldn't have happened if the guy's name was Jim Hinkins or something.

[MwnciHead]

Wouldn't have happened if the guy's name was Jim Hinkins or something...

or richard ried, the "famous in the uk" terrorist fr being a muslim and having a bomb in his shoes on an aeroplane? :)

guy in military goes nuts after "apparent" mistreatment. well, the military isnt known to be nice... he happens to be a muslim, which makes it a good media story considering the world scene. its going to be hard seperating the obective truth from the background noise on this one. thing is most people wont want to - the base facts fit together into a nice story as it is.

[lapis]

At 11/9/09 02:16 PM, Jon-86 wrote: My name is Jon if I decided to practice Islam tomorrow would I have a Muslim sounding name?

Meh. I realise that what I'm going to say is irrelevant to the point that you're making, but really, if you decided to practice Islam tomorrow then it would be at least be recommended that you'd change your first name to a Muslim name like Abdul-Jabbar or Salahuddin.

The sooner people realise their government is using this as a way to control them through fear the better.

This is downright silly, however. Which exact government is trying to instigate against Muslims in order to control its population through fear? The US government? The UK government? How did any government try to use this incident to rally people against Muslims?

[hansari]

At 11/9/09 08:58 AM, gumOnShoe wrote: The path to a Holocaust is paved with the demonetization of a culture for the illusion of security.

I just had shivers. Remember The Siege?!

[Jon-86]

At 11/9/09 02:49 PM, Elfer wrote: No. What I'm saying is, people who believe that Muslims are part of a global conspiracy to wipe out the American race are especially stupid, and will latch onto this guy as "proof"

Wouldn't have happened if the guy's name was Jim Hinkins or something.

No problem, but it dose go beyond America you get hard line nationalists in most parts of the world. In Russia the fascists their don't need "proof" they just attack anyone who they think might be a Muslim or from places like Chechnya and the former Yugoslavia.

At 11/9/09 03:14 PM, lapis wrote:

At 11/9/09 02:16 PM, Jon-86 wrote: My name is Jon if I decided to practice Islam tomorrow would I have a Muslim sounding name?

Meh. I realise that what I'm going to say is irrelevant to the point that you're making, but really, if you decided to practice Islam tomorrow then it would be at least be recommended that you'd change your first name to a Muslim name like Abdul-Jabbar or Salahuddin.

No it wouldn't. Who ever you heard that from is mistaken and putting false ideas in your head!

The sooner people realise their government is using this as a way to control them through fear the better.

This is downright silly, however. Which exact government is trying to instigate against Muslims in order to control its population through fear? The US government? The UK government? How did any government try to use this incident to rally people against Muslims?

Any and all government's and not only against Muslims if a government is trying to gain public support for something they will demonize or dehumanise anything that makes up the opposition. I did not say that this specific event is being used by the government to rally any kind of support. All I was commenting on is the reactions by some people and in the news.

You can't disagree that most Americans don't see people, they see "rag-heads" or "Muslims" or "communists" or "some other generalisation" their would never be support for a war if the News in America reported on not only US/UK soldiers that were killed but all the civilians caught in the crossfire by both sides.

They only report what they want you to know, the media by in large is a tool used by the government.

Thats what makes the internet a great thing. People can take pictures and post them and you get to see what's going on.

[lapis]

At 11/9/09 03:54 PM, Jon-86 wrote: No it wouldn't. Who ever you heard that from is mistaken and putting false ideas in your head!

Of course it's not obligatory, but a lot that is virtuous in Islam isn't. Most Muslims will maintain that changing your name to something with a clear Islamic (or at the very least Arabic) ring is admirable, especially if your name has a non-Islamic origin. Since the name Jon goes back to John the Baptist you'd most likely be advised to change your name if you were to convert. I personally know three male converts to Islam and all of them changed their name (yet, the two female converts that I know didn't, however), and while I'll admit that this is a negligible sample, you can look anywhere on the Internet to see that this is somewhat representative.

Assalam-ulekum,

I have a freind that wants to convert but was asking me if Islam (not culture) REQUIRES them to change thier name?

- Its better but not obligatory.

- This said, it is also good to intentionally replace a name, as an act of piety and intention. For the purpose of coming closer to Allah, you are choosing to emphasize a new aspect of your being, not just personality but very being. This is Islam.

- As salaamulaikum Brother Kamals.My former name was joseph the same just arabic Yusuf last name williams son of will i didnt know what to do with it so I changed it entierly.

- It is adviseable to change the name.

they see "rag-heads" or "Muslims" or "communists" or "some other generalisation" their would never be support for a war if the News in America reported on not only US/UK soldiers that were killed but all the civilians caught in the crossfire by both sides.

"The" news outlets focus on those things because fear sells, and things that sell generate money, and money is good. I don't see how governments are involved in any of this. Actually, state-funded media like the BBC are more Muslim-friendly than commercial news agencies.

Here, you're just echoing generic complaints about governmental demagogy that in no way apply to this situation. Even the Bush administration was keen not to offend Muslims, and now we have Obama who will even condemn insulting religion as a sidenote to the right to freedom of speech. Seriously, this event is competely unrelated to the policies of any Western government, so it's a little strange at best that you bring them into this discussion.

They only report what they want you to know, the media by in large is a tool used by the government.

Oh, for fuck's sake. Is your Labour government really profiting from using "the" media as a tool?

[Jon-86]

At 11/9/09 04:45 PM, lapis wrote: Oh, for fuck's sake. Is your Labour government really profiting from using "the" media as a tool?

Government's dont care about profiting they care about public opinion. And yes they do the BBC will and dose report mainly on what we do in a positive way, they spin it as much as the politicians do. Look at the UK expenses scandal. They didn't want that to be leaked but it did and the news then provided every means for politicians to redeem themselves.

[TakeTheBait]

Islam breeds extremism. Religion is good, except when leading figures of significant, large sects are preaching approval for violence, fear, and destruction (aka Islam). Are all Muslims bad? No. Are most Muslims bad? No, not even. But would the world today be a safer place without Islam? Yes.

[Jon-86]

At 11/9/09 07:13 PM, TakeTheBait wrote: But would the world today be a safer place without Islam? Yes.

Bullshit. Get rid of the Christians first if anything! In fact get rid of all of them. Buddhists are probably as good as we are going to get as their faith cant be manipulated through nationalism or money.

[danicos]

None of us are real americans you idiot! And he snapped, your americans kept antagonizing him! Im not agreeing with wat that man did, but it could have all been evaded if rascism wasnt involved

[danicos]

At 11/9/09 01:49 PM, ArmouredGRIFFON wrote: Can we remind you that America is a country with a little bit of everything... Your nearly as inbread as we are across the Jolly Ol' Atlantic

Lets put it this way, we are all humans, is just because our fellow neighbor black make him not equal as me? We are all the same in a way, but wat makes us different is our state of mind

-Danicos

Plus the Army accepts ''citizens'' of the USA. That includes anyone with a birth certificate and a green card!

[Chavic]

At 11/9/09 07:33 PM, danicos wrote: None of us are real americans you idiot! And he snapped, your americans kept antagonizing him! Im not agreeing with wat that man did, but it could have all been evaded if rascism wasnt involved

First of are, many of us are American citizens, Muslims as much as anybody. And you have no idea if rascism was involved.

Its unfortunate that the person to commit this atrocity was muslim, because some people are going to freak out, like the OP. But the fact remains that he was muslim, and reports about anti American sentiment against him, and made a speech justifying suicide bombers.

However, this man is the exception, not the norm for American Muslims.

[LordJaric]

At 11/9/09 07:40 PM, Chavic wrote: Its unfortunate that the person to commit this atrocity was muslim, because some people are going to freak out, like the OP.

I take it you didn't read the OP post

[Chavic]

It does seem I misread it, and retract "like to OP"

[DeadSun]

You are right, they are not real americans, no one but native americans are real americans.

[Chavic]

At 11/10/09 08:40 AM, DeadSun wrote: You are right, they are not real americans, no one but native americans are real americans.

By this logic not even Native Americans are Americans, they came to this continent by the Bering Strait.

[SolInvictus]

At 11/10/09 09:07 AM, Chavic wrote:

At 11/10/09 08:40 AM, DeadSun wrote: You are right, they are not real americans, no one but native americans are real americans.

By this logic not even Native Americans are Americans, they came to this continent by the Bering Strait.

shii.
well i guess it was long enough since someone freaked out and decided to shoot a whole bunch of people.

[morefngdbs]

At 11/9/09 01:53 PM, gumOnShoe wrote:

At 11/9/09 01:09 PM, morefngdbs wrote: Many muslim countries, it is impossible for a female to get an education, drive a car, own their own property !

Yeah, but it was only 100 years ago that women didn't have those rights here in America and in Europe and it isn't Islam that enforces those ideas. . Not every Islamic country follows strict shariah law, and both Christianity and Judaism have sects which are just as harsh if not more so.

;;;
I realise that , & that's part of my point. I don't believe allowing people with that view to PRACTISE that in this country is right, nor should it be a right they can have...Its a step backwards, & They argue for it by saying 'they want to keep their values' If your values go against the established values of the country you've immigrated to...Why did you bother coming here ?
I wouldn't go to Saudi Arabia...I like to enjoy a cold beer, I have no interest in going to a country where I'm not welcomed, my actions would be illegal there, I know that & will respect their countries system & stay away. So why do they come here & attempt to shove their belief's down (my) our throats.

I don't believe anyone from a culture like that should be able to bring that value to my country, Canada.

For society to function, I believe there can only be 1 rule of law, & no religious group should have any 'rights' to superceed that .

That's a different issue. If you have people breaking the laws of Canada to uphold their own brand of justice, then Canada needs to deal with that, but that is generally a cultural choice and not a religious one.

;;;
Muslims are setting up these Sharia courts in Britian ,Europe & trying to do so covertly here in Canada. We've had several 'honor killings' here in Canada in the last couple of years, family members killing their children because they were conforming to Canadian ways & their parents & older siblings murdered them ! These so called Muslim Sharia conflict resolution done at the mosques ,which are RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS are being used to keep the practices I've mentioned alive & well in Canada...that is a problem, keeping originating country's cultural values in place even though they are now Canadians, & it is religion & memebers of the clergy trying to keep people in line & adhering to these outdated values which Canada has done away with.

But I see no reason that they shouldn't have to change...they came to our country, if you want to become a Canadian, you need to behave like the citizens of Canada do. Which means you have to be willing to make some changes.

I'd agree to a point and I think that point is the point at which you are forcing them to be something they aren't. If they aren't doing anything to specifically affect you, I say let them be. And if they are trying to change the government, its a democratic style government, let the majority rule.

;;;
But they are, they're attempting to close "public" pools on certain days so muslim women can use them.
They want veiled picture drivers licenses . It absolutely pisses me off that anyone would be allowed to go masked in our society. You or I try walking into a mall or a place of business & refuse to remove a mask...they'd throw you out & call the police. But if it's a muslim...they should have a 'right' I don't bloody think so ! ! !
Where I live you cannot even go into a place of business on halloween masked, & keep that mask on if its requested you remove it.
In Bars that hold halloween bashes/parties, patrons have to show a member of the staff their faces uncovered to prove who they are...its how things are done here & its a very valid safety concern. You make a request like that to a muslim...& they're all screaming about how they're being persecuted.

As for letting them be, I've got no problem with that...go back to Saudi Arabia, Jordan ,Iraq, Pakistan etc. & be as muslim as you wish to be. If you decide to come here, you take on the responsibility of becoming a citizen of this country...we shouldn't have to make any changes...you, the immigrant(s) should.

People need to keep that in perspective...we didn't force you to come here, If you don't agree with our customs & how people act in our society...the answer is simple DO NOT COME HERE.