[shmup] Surreal Level

[johnnycancer]

Hey folks, this is the official thread for Team Surreal!

I know there's a lot of information here, but, I wanted to try and create a good starting point for ideas and discussion by giving us all the info we need to know before we start. Give it a skim at least and then start posting concept art.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Team Roster and Contact Info - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

As of 11/7/2009, Team Surreal is:

TimFrommeyer
ReNaeNae (specializing in coloring and cleanup) (MSN = [e-mail])
johnnycancer (team leader) (I can be contacted via MSN messenger or email as [e-mail])
idiot-monarch (MSN = [e-mail])
KillHammer
Spaghetti14
zooominsh
UltraPitchFork (technical advisor) (MSN = [e-mail])

MSN Messenger is currently the default communication device for the team. If you don't have MSN Messenger, I need you to go download it and create an MSN account.

MSN Messenger can be downloaded here:

http://download.live.com/?sku=messenger

You can sign up for an MSN account for free here:

http://www.msn.com/

If your contact info isn't listed above, please PM me with it, or post in this thread so that the rest of the team can know how to contact you. We need to be able to communicate outside of Newgrounds because the private messaging system isn't particularly advanced and because I want to be able to mass email people with updates and other information.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Team Motto!- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Our team motto, as showcased on our official Team Banner is:

"We our the music makers, and We are the dreamers of the dreams."

I think this is an appropriate rallying cry since, as surrealists, we will be drawing heavily upon our dreams and subconscious mind for inspiration.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Level Information- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Here's what we know about our level so far:

Theme: Surreal - if you want to get an idea of what surrealism encompasses, check out the following websites:

Wikipedia Entry on Surrealism

beinArt Surreal Art Collective

The Art of Dave McKean

Scrolling: Vertical, meaning that we will be viewing the player's ship, landscape, and enemies from a top down perspective. For examples of this see: Legendary Wings, Raiden, Ikaruga and some of the levels in Abadox for examples of vertically scrolling shooters

Level Structure:
- Phase I: smaller enemies and avoidance of obstacles. Enemies leave coins/gems/monetary
units behind when destroyed.
- Phase II: Boss Fight! (HUGE boss, bullet hell, possibly multiple forms). Boss, when destroyed,
leaves tons of coins to collect before level ends.

Customizable Elements:
1) Player ship
2) Player floating ship guns
3) Backgrounds / Foregrounds
4) Enemies / Obstacles
5) Bosses
6) Effects (explosions, glowing lights, etc.)
7) Bullet appearance
8) Level Music and Sound Effects
9) Special bullet types available for purchase

An outline with this information and other useful facts can be found here:

http://bomtoons.com/ngshmup/outline.php

As I find out more information about the specifications of the game, I'll be sure to inform the rest of the team about it.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Guidelines for Graphic Design- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Tom suggested the following graphical guidelines:

1) Distant, solid background pieces should be JPG for file size, but GIF is alright
2) Parallax layers of background should be transparent GIF, unless they absolutely need to be
24-bit PNG, i.e. clouds and objects with alpha elements.
3) Player and enemies could be transparent GIF or 24-big PNG. PNGs will increase the file size a lot
and may perform slightly slower than transparent GIFs, but they can also look a lot nicer with
smooth edges.
4) Bullets and explosions will likely be 24-bit PNGs, with fun glow effects built into the art

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - -Division of Labor- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

We need individuals or teams working on the following things:
1) Backgrounds and foregrounds - these are larger pieces that will be highly detailed; we really
want these to shine because they're going to be a huge part of what creates the mood and
atmosphere for our level
2) Player ship design, including the following elements:
a. Physical look of the ship
b. Floating guns / options
c. Bullets (look and animation)
d. Upgrades and special bullet types
e. Ship damage (?)
3) Regular enemies - these are the cannon fodder for the level so we want to have lots of them
and we want there to be lots of unique designs to keep things interesting
4) Obstacles - these are solid barriers scattered throughout the level that players will have to avoid
5) Mini-Bosses / Sub-Bosses - these are special enemies that will be located in key areas
throughout the level - they will be bigger and tougher than regular enemies and they may have
more than one form
6) Boss - this is the big boss of the level; this baddie will be HUGE and we want it to go through
multiple transformations as it takes damage (check out the bosses in Smash TV if you want an
example)

If you're interested in working on a specific aspect of the game, let me know. As we divide up the labor, I will try to place people on projects they want to work on, but I reserve the right to place people where I think they will be the most useful since I'm concerned with maintain a high standard of quality for the entire project.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Guidelines for Conceptual Art - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

For at least the next month, we're going to be focusing on conceptual art, trying to figure out what works and what doesn't for our level and theme.

Whenever possible with enemy designs, please try and explain how the enemy will behave in the game; what its patterns will be; its function in the game; and how it will attack.

Glance at the outline from time to time to see what's possible in-game and what's not.

Keep in mind that our level is a vertically scrolling level, so most of the enemies and objects will be seen from a top-down perspective.

You can work in any medium you want when doing conceptual art. However, once an idea is approved for in-game use, be prepared to go back and clean up your art using Photoshop / Illustrator / GIMP / Paint.net / Flash / other image editing software.

ReNaeNae will be in charge of cleaning up all art submitted for the level and insuring that everything has a uniform and consistent look to it. Understand that designs you submit may be modified in order for us to have a cohesive final product. Additionally, please use image editing software capable of producing JPG, 24-bit PNG, and GIF output, as these will be the formats that we will primarily be working in (unless ReNaeNae informs me that she needs other file formats in order to do her job).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - -- - - - Final Words - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - -- - - - - -

Good luck everybody and have fun with this! We're going to all be working together for a long time so we might as well enjoy it. If you feel yourself getting discouraged or overwhelmed, keep in mind that you are participating in the largest collaborative effort that the Art Forum has ever produced and you have a unique opportunity to be a part of Newgrounds history. I am quite honored to be working with all of you and I am excited to see what we can come up with in the following weeks and months.

- johnnycancer -

[ReNaeNae]

woO! Team surreal!!

I asked bomtoons if we could do something with the controls... like reverse them or something. He said we could, but thought that might be annoying for the player lol ...what do you guys think? Also... just because we're vertical doesn't mean it has to be top-down view, right?

We need to get the rest of the team in the loop!! Where is everyone?!?

[idiot-monarch]

Might as well get this show on the road.

Top two guys are just cannon fodder guys who move in patterns. Bottom guy could be a mini boss or regular enemy. The idea is that his rays could spin and you have to avoid them.

What does everyone think?

[idiot-monarch]

At 11/8/09 10:22 AM, ReNaeNae wrote: woO! Team surreal!!

I asked bomtoons if we could do something with the controls... like reverse them or something. He said we could, but thought that might be annoying for the player lol ...what do you guys think? Also... just because we're vertical doesn't mean it has to be top-down view, right?

I think that'd be a bit extreme. I do like the idea of fucking with the player though. Maybe have the health/life/special bar go backwards, or trick the player into thinking they're winning medals (this game will have medals, right?) that don't really exist, or have a not quite right looking game over screen appear for a moment.

etc.

[DieterTheuns]

At 11/8/09 10:23 AM, idiot-monarch wrote: Top two guys are just cannon fodder guys who move in patterns. Bottom guy could be a mini boss or regular enemy.

lol, you do realise you'd be fighting God himself, do you? :P

...I'll stay out of this thread ;3

[J-qb]

At 11/8/09 10:35 AM, idiot-monarch wrote:

At 11/8/09 10:22 AM, ReNaeNae wrote:

reverse controls?
I think that'd be a bit extreme. health/life/special bar go backwards, trick the player into thinking they're winning medals

I dont mean to intrude in your theme, but maybe an insanity meter? so getting hit by (certain) enemies decreases your sanity. if your sanity is below 0, controls are inverted or something like that...

[johnnycancer]

At 11/8/09 10:22 AM, ReNaeNae wrote: woO! Team surreal!!

I know! I'm excited too!

I asked bomtoons if we could do something with the controls... like reverse them or something. He said we could, but thought that might be annoying for the player lol ...what do you guys think?

I actually really like this idea of flipping the controls around and I don't think it would be that annoying if we make it have some internal consistency with the overall level design. For example, I was thinking that there might be a section which is loosely inspired by Alice in Wonderland, so, that section might start with the player ship literally going through a looking glass and then finding that everything looks topsy turvy and their controls are reversed as they race through a rabbit hole, or something like that. I think if we're doing it to add to the overall atmosphere of insanity, then it won't be that annoying.

OR

We could incorporate this into J-qb's suggestion about a sanity meter. In the outline, BomToons said it's possible to have a "special" meter that fills up as you collect specific powerups. Maybe he could reverse that behavior for our stage? Have a special meter that slowly decreases, and the player has to pick up powerups to keep it from running out; once the meter runs out, your ship transforms and you now have a super powerful weapon, BUT, your controls are reversed and the damage you take while in this form is doubled. The effect would only last maybe 10 or 15 seconds, and then you'd revert back to normal with a full sanity meter again.

What do you guys think?

Also... just because we're vertical doesn't mean it has to be top-down view, right?

Hmmmm....well I don't actually know, to be honest. I assume that we're going to play with the perspective of things a bit so, we won't necessarily be seeing the top of everything's head so to speak. But, the ship for example, I assumed we would more or less have a top-down view of that. What are other people envisioning?

We need to get the rest of the team in the loop!! Where is everyone?!?

I don't know. zooomnish was having computer problems, so, that might be keeping him from posting at the moment, but, everybody else I have no idea. I may have to start recruiting new people sooner than I thought if we can't assemble the whole team soon.

At 11/8/09 10:23 AM, idiot-monarch wrote: Top two guys are just cannon fodder guys who move in patterns. Bottom guy could be a mini boss or regular enemy. The idea is that his rays could spin and you have to avoid them.

I like the cannon fodder guys. Go ahead and start working on more polished versions of them.

I also like the pyramid mini-boss idea, but I'd like to see it fleshed out a little more. Maybe after you shoot the pyramid enough times it breaks apart and reveals an Egyptian god or goddess (maybe one rendered in an H.R. Giger style?). Go ahead and start polishing the design for this as a cannon fodder enemy, and we'll see how it might fit into the overall level design as it progresses. Okay?

Thanks for getting the ball rolling on this guys. I'll try and get some designs up as well in the next couple of days.

[Spags]

I'm here you guys, I just haven't been at a computer for a day..

This is really exciting, and I like all the ideas being thrown out there.
One I really liked was ReNaeNae's, what if we had the ship going up, but instead of going forward in the game but from a top view, it was a side view and the ship was actually going up? Am I explaining this right?
Kind of like the angle of a platformer, but still flying forwards and stuff.
The coding wouldn't change at all, just the pictures.

[Kembry]

So yes, im here to help us make this game AWESOME.
I will read everything first and than I will think about ideas.

Ohh, and everything should be drawn on pc right ?

[johnnycancer]

At 11/8/09 04:52 PM, Spaghetti14 wrote: I'm here you guys, I just haven't been at a computer for a day..

Awww, you big beautiful bastard! I know you'd show up eventually.

Kind of like the angle of a platformer, but still flying forwards and stuff.

You mean an isometric view? Like Zaxxon? Try and find an example and we can discuss it, although I am leaning towards more traditional vertical scrolling.

At 11/8/09 05:04 PM, zooominsh wrote: So yes, im here to help us make this game AWESOME.

It IS going to be AWESOME!

I will read everything first and than I will think about ideas.

I know it's a lot of stuff, but I think it'll help us approach this in practical terms of what has to be included in every level and what in-game physics we're working with and stuff like that.

Ohh, and everything should be drawn on pc right ?

Do whatever is easiest for you and use whatever tools you're best at working with. For now, since we're at the concept art stage, you can submit stuff drawn with paper and pencil, if you want. Once it comes time to create the actual in-game graphics, you'll have to be working on a computer, but at the moment it's not required.

[Spags]

At 11/8/09 05:18 PM, johnnycancer wrote:

At 11/8/09 04:52 PM, Spaghetti14 wrote: I'm here you guys, I just haven't been at a computer for a day..

Awww, you big beautiful bastard! I know you'd show up eventually.

Of course of course I'd never leave you guys.

yet..

Kind of like the angle of a platformer, but still flying forwards and stuff.

You mean an isometric view? Like Zaxxon? Try and find an example and we can discuss it, although I am leaning towards more traditional vertical scrolling.

No, not isometric. Kind of like this.. Obviously not this shitty, nor with such realistic things as buildings and a blue sky with sun, but you get the picture. So like you fly up into space, and the deeper in space you get, the more surreal and weird things get, and since there is no space level, we can kind of use space as a place where the unknown is, the surreal is, and it doesn't have to be about space actually, I don't even know why i went on that tangent, the point is, you are going away from earth or something. you're going up.

[Spags]

HEY.
All the other groups are making progress in their threads, and this one is all dead n' stuff.
let's fix that.
does anyone have any ideas, or have any opinions on the ideas already put out?

[johnnycancer]

At 11/8/09 08:24 PM, Spaghetti14 wrote: HEY.
All the other groups are making progress in their threads, and this one is all dead n' stuff.
let's fix that.
does anyone have any ideas, or have any opinions on the ideas already put out?

Well, we're ahead of the Cyberpunk and Flash levels; they don't eve have threads yet. I think our progress is pretty good so far, considering we still don't know most of the specifics yet; like the dimensions of the game window itself.

I'll throw my boss idea out here again. I wanted to try and get it more polished, since it's just a sketch right now, but, we can have it out here and see what people think.

So, I'm envisioning that in the last stretch of the level the player enters what is essentially a surrealist church / temple. This would be kind of fun, since one of the enemies / obstacles I wanted to include was a Buddha statue holding a gun that will randomly shoot at the player. Anyway, once the player reaches the end of the temple, they encounter an altar surrounded by these limbless creatures with picture boxes inscribed on their bodies. We'll call them "fearmongers." Each one represents a different type of human fear / perversion; they attack by projecting this "fear" onto the player's ship (this "fear" attack probably taking the form of a holographic projection of some kind shooting from the box in their body).

Once the player kills the last one, it drops to the floor and out of its back a tree starts growing; the tree sprouts a massive and stylized vision of the Virgin Mary with blonde hair, wearing sheer red lace, and pure white eyes. This final boss is mostly stationary, but is able to summon the "fearmongers" to attack on her behalf. She also has several unique attacks; she is able to attack with "divine light" which temporarily blinds the player and makes the screen go white for a few seconds; she can call on "divine intervention" which causes a massive fist to fall out of the sky and "smite" the player; she has a bullet hell attack called "morning aftershock" which fills the screen with various blue and pink pills and fetuses that latch onto the player's ship, slowing down movement and eventually exploding, causing massive damage that increases with each additional pill or fetus that attaches itself to the ship; and a sort of spreadshot attack called "bloody Mary" where her wrists suddenly bleed with stigmata and she flicks blood bullets at the player.

What do you guys think? Like it? Hate it? Should I scrap it and put my time to better use? Maybe we can use parts of this for several smaller enemies but you want a different Boss character?

[UltraPitchFork]

I'll start making a shitload of concept art from now on. We're doing a surreal themed level, we should make art without any meaning. Dali and Alice in Wonderland are sure great inspiration but they should stay inspiration and . We should approach our theme in a less stereotypical manner. In a way, surreal can translate to psychedelic or abstract.

[Spags]

At 11/8/09 09:27 PM, johnnycancer wrote: What do you guys think? Like it? Hate it? Should I scrap it and put my time to better use? Maybe we can use parts of this for several smaller enemies but you want a different Boss character?

I think that it's a really good idea, especially the different fearmongers and whatnot, and the buddhas, but it seems like this is getting too religious for the surreality of it. Maybe we could switch gears after the fearmongers, like the church could crumble apart and the big main boss "thing" could be something entirely different, but still similar.. Maybe fear itself could manifest, we could discuss how to portray that.

The cool zombie ladies look pretty nice, but it doesn't really match the angles one would use in this sort of game. If I'm wrong here, then correct me, but that's my impression of it.
Continuing on angles, what did you think of my idea?

[johnnycancer]

At 11/8/09 09:40 PM, UltraPitchFork wrote: I'll start making a shitload of concept art from now on. We're doing a surreal themed level, we should make art without any meaning. Dali and Alice in Wonderland are sure great inspiration but they should stay inspiration and . We should approach our theme in a less stereotypical manner. In a way, surreal can translate to psychedelic or abstract.

Not to get into a philosophical debate, but Surrealism is distinguishable from Dada in that Surrealists DO ascribe meaning to what they're doing, primarily as a manifestation of what's in their unconscious or subconscious mind; which is one reason why Dali painted so many scenes that were based on dreams he had and why Surrealists were very interested in Freud's psychological theories. Dada on the other hand DID basically say that nothing means anything; that's why so many Dadaists said that Dada was anti-art.

I agree with you that we should be aiming for something original, but if we're going for a type of stream of consciousness art style that is typical of lots of surrealist art then obviously aspects of our own cultural experiences are going to seep in there.

[Spags]

At 11/8/09 10:00 PM, johnnycancer wrote:

At 11/8/09 09:40 PM, UltraPitchFork wrote:

Dictionary: Surrealism, n. Pure psychic automatism, by which one proposes to express, either verbally, in writing, or by any other manner, the real functioning of thought. Dictation of thought in the absence of all control exercised by reason, outside of all aesthetic and moral preoccupation.

Encyclopedia: Surrealism. Philosophy. Surrealism is based on the belief in the superior reality of certain forms of previously neglected associations, in the omnipotence of dream, in the disinterested play of thought. It tends to ruin once and for all other psychic mechanisms and to substitute itself for them in solving all the principal problems of life.

There. With that, I think it means something, but can be so obscure to the point where it's near impossible to find out what it's about. Also, this doesn't have to be insanely profound, considering it's not like a book we're releasing or anything. Of course it's going to be high quality, but as for making a statement, I'm not sure that's really our main goal. I'm going to try and work on some concept art late tonight or after school tomorrow.

[UltraPitchFork]

Some ideas

[UltraPitchFork]

At 11/8/09 10:23 AM, idiot-monarch wrote: Might as well get this show on the road.

Top two guys are just cannon fodder guys who move in patterns. Bottom guy could be a mini boss or regular enemy. The idea is that his rays could spin and you have to avoid them.

What does everyone think?

I like that ball full of eyes. Maybe we could do that when they get near our ship they run into it at full speed and explode.

[johnnycancer]

At 11/8/09 10:20 PM, UltraPitchFork wrote: Some ideas

That's great looking! What were your plans for this one? Player ship?

At 11/8/09 09:51 PM, Spaghetti14 wrote: I think that it's a really good idea, especially the different fearmongers and whatnot, and the buddhas, but it seems like this is getting too religious for the surreality of it. Maybe we could switch gears after the fearmongers, like the church could crumble apart and the big main boss "thing" could be something entirely different, but still similar.. Maybe fear itself could manifest, we could discuss how to portray that.

We can get away from the religious angle if people don't like that, and the church crumbling apart is pretty dramatic and befitting of a boss battle. I also do like the idea of fighting "fear itself" although I'm not sure how I'd visually portray that yet.

The cool zombie ladies look pretty nice, but it doesn't really match the angles one would use in this sort of game. If I'm wrong here, then correct me, but that's my impression of it.
Continuing on angles, what did you think of my idea?

I wasn't actually trying to go for correct perspective on it since it's just a concept, but I see the point you're making. I do like your idea about angles and I think we'll probably be doing something along those lines anyway. But, even if we do more of a top-down look, we can still play with the angles a bit to have things facing the viewer a little more; see this example from Gun Nac:

[johnnycancer]

Quick concept sketch for an enemy I'm calling Fake Face 'cause I've got no creativity in me at the moment. It's movement is explained in the sketch. Basically, it moves slowly across the screen and fires it's face at the player.

[johnnycancer]

Here's a pair of enemies that I'm collectively calling "Sweet Lips." Their movement pattern is explained in the sketch. Basically, the float along the screen and attempt to ram the player.

Like? Dislike?

I figure we've got a good month at least to brainstorm before we begin seriously planning how we're going to execute this, so, let's just take our time on this and try and figure out what we like and what we don't.

Thanks to everybody who has posted ideas so far; I think we're off to a good start.

[johnnycancer]

Another enemy / obstacle concept drawing. This one is stationary and explodes out in multiple directions.

[Spags]

At 11/9/09 02:39 AM, johnnycancer wrote: Another enemy / obstacle concept drawing. This one is stationary and explodes out in multiple directions.

I think that while these are cool, and very designy/neato, we could use maybe just one of them, because they are all human based, and maybe since this is surreal, we could branch out into nonexistent creatures.
This one could stick to the wall like a mine though, I like it.

[Kembry]

Ultrapitchfork, it could be a spaceship yeah, it is so great and surreal.
I think I have some ideas for enemies and I will draw them tonight.

[Sqeezy]

Alright, I'm totally hooked for this now.

So first thing is collecting ideas then.
I'm still not exactly sure how much freedom we have adding powerups/abilities to the ship/game etc.
Have we got a programmer on our team?
It's an important point for realizing some of the more specific surreal ideas.

I'll come up with sketches for something to get real and stop talking.

actually, how about having a sureal character instead of a basic ship?
Surrealism means vivid and organic to me so we could use the advantage of a "living ship"
here's a little character thingy i never gave a purpose:

2 cents

[ReNaeNae]

At 11/9/09 02:46 PM, TimFrommeyer wrote: Alright, I'm totally hooked for this now.

woO!! That's great news!!!

Have we got a programmer on our team?

Everything you need to know is in the original discussion thread
Art Forum Game [Discussion]
BoMToons is programming the entire game... check page 12 for all of the specs on size, frame rate, backgrounds, bosses, etc. Any questions for the overall game should go in that thread... all level specific questions and concepts go in this thread.

Are we still missing anyone? or is our whole team present now?

[johnnycancer]

At 11/9/09 02:46 PM, TimFrommeyer wrote: Alright, I'm totally hooked for this now.

Welcome to the party! We're all really excited you came!

actually, how about having a sureal character instead of a basic ship?
Surrealism means vivid and organic to me so we could use the advantage of a "living ship"

I do like the idea of a living ship, and I think it's something we have the freedom to do given our theme which would set our level apart from what the other teams are doing. Wanna pitch a design for it?

here's a little character thingy i never gave a purpose:

I like it!

At 11/9/09 03:01 PM, ReNaeNae wrote: Are we still missing anyone? or is our whole team present now?

We are still missing KillHammer, but I believe everybody else is present and accounted for now.

[Spags]

Here's some concept art I've been working on.

[johnnycancer]

At 11/9/09 11:19 PM, Spaghetti14 wrote: Here's some concept art I've been working on.

I like how the fish looks, but I'm not quite sure how it fits the surreal theme. What was the context in which you expected the enemy to show up?

Also, I like the idea of having the ship scroll down into fear / madness. This is something we need to talk about a little more. ReNaeNae suggested that we play around with the perspective of things a bit to give the impression of a changing camera angle as the player progresses through different parts of the level. I like this idea because it means we wouldn't have to draw everything from the top down and we could also have a REALLY big boss if we wanted to.

In other news, WE HAVE A NEW TEAM MEMBER!

I want you guys to welcome JessePants to the team! He's got some really cool art in his gallery and he's gonna be helping make the Surreal Level kick ass!

That's it for now. Keep at it everybody and I'll try and post some more concept stuff later tonight as well.