Forum Topic: Animal Farm - my thoughts

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Scarab

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Posted at: 11/7/09 07:27 PM

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In typing out this thread, I considered whether or not it belonged in the Politics forum. I decided against posting there, as most of the material covered there is either of a contemporary (often American) nature, or discussing abstract ideas in practice. This is supposed to be a brief discussion on a piece of fictional literature, and although this particular story, as I'm about to argue, is specifically and politically tied, it's just not Politics material. Sorry guys, but I think it's a popular enough story to have some thought here. Background stuff on the story can be found on the net if it's at all important to you.

I first read Animal Farm, a couple of weeks ago, after it had been sitting on my "must-read list" for some time. My main motivations for reading it included the usual lust for just getting to grips with various examples of modern classic literature, but I had some other reasons to read this story too - in particular, my own socio-political interests of the past few years, and because of my Mum. My Mum loves the phrase "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others". Back at home, we've had some political discussions before over dinner. My Dad's brought up his sort of thinking at my age before, and I've brought up my own, and I personally don't think the sort of things I think of in terms of progression could be termed as "communist", though I think that's the same for a vast amount of kidders, haha.

My point? Is Animal Farm a one-size-fits-all criticism of socialist idealism, never mind what we tend to refer to as communism? I personally don't think that's the case at all, and while I'm following the conclusions of a fair amount of readers of the story, it seems that this is the way many people have read the story. I have two reasons for this: Animal Farm's allegories are specific, its characters and events corresponding to moments in Russian history, from the civil war, to the conflict between Trotsky and Stalin in the '20s, from the show trails, to World War II and the Tehran conference at the very end. My second reason is what Orwell himself wanted to point out with the story, as far as I've been able to drag out from a bit of reading on the outside: to make it clear to British (and other western) intellectuals that totalitarianism isn't acceptable, even when it is done "in the name of socialism". Simply put, he was a disilluisioned guy, disillusioned with different parts of the idea: this story attacked more than a few of those points. It's quite a simple point today in some way, where we have easy access to different piece of historical evidence, but given WW2, people were anxious to admit to this... or maybe they were too idealistic, to the extent they were hurting themselves?

And Animal Farm, with all its rich English iconography slotted in for the sake of its allegory and convenience to the western reader, could probably be an adequate interpretation of the offsprings of Stalinism still known to us today, including Maoism (however much this has been derailed within China since 1976, or much earlier for that matter) and juche. On this level, it doesn't work as an overall criticism of moderate-to-extreme leftist ideals though, despite how its been used over the years. What Animal Farm might do is discuss what sort of issues a nation might face when working off a near-immediate transition, like the Bolsheviks were doing in 1917. Is that relevant as a way of looking forward and seeing how moderate change could be implemented? Historical study is important, but it also can't accont for everything as a result of differing contexts. Bringing Trotsky back into the frame briefly, I was talking to an online associate once about this sort of thing, and he joked that if you were to have lunch with Trotsky tomorrow, and you told him "Oh sir, I use your work to form my thoughts in the United Kingdom in the year 2009" (he understands English in this fantasy), he'd most likely laugh in your face. His works addressed Russia in the first half of the twentieth century... just like Animal Farm.

Put briefly anyway, as a way of getting this little thing off my chest. I also just watched the animated Animal Farm, and just like 443548 critics before me, I give the different ending away to a special someone's death during production. Not sure about that entirely, but I'd say it was some motivation at least.

TL:DR? Erm, George Orwell's Animal Farm is an allegory for the Russian Revolution and the development of Stalinism. Is it useful to use it as a way of explaining other lieftist theories, even the most moderate?


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Mikay

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Posted at: 11/7/09 07:29 PM

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Snowball didnt deserve the way they treated him.


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Orange-Jews

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Posted at: 11/7/09 07:31 PM

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I didn't like it at all.

Boring, and too 'in your face'.

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LardLord

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Posted at: 11/7/09 07:37 PM

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Welcome to 7th grade literature hour, with our lovely host, Scarab!


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Mikay

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Posted at: 11/7/09 07:41 PM

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At 11/7/09 07:37 PM, LardLord wrote: Welcome to 7th grade literature hour, with our lovely host, Scarab!

Umm Mizzuz Scarab, Can i go to the baffwoom? Is a mergency!


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Scarab

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Posted at: 11/7/09 07:45 PM

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At 11/7/09 07:29 PM, Mikay wrote: Snowball didnt deserve the way they treated him.

It's funny that you should say that, because given Orwell's own shaping as a moderate socialist (from what I gather), it's probably something he wanted us to at least be wary about, never mind feel sorry for as the story progresses. Snowball has quite often been displayed somewhat as a mean-spirited character in versions I've glimpsed at, but with that aside, it's always been maintained that he's more intellectually constructive, if less bureaucratically able and charismatic than Napoleon. Can you imagine Animal Farm with portraits of Snowball dotted around the place? Maybe you can, I don't know, but it's a thought that should be pushed a little more, at least from my biased point of view. This backs up my point really. It might be altogether inaccurate to simply place Trotsky and Stalin in place of Snowball and Napoleon respectively within the story, but the obvious references are there, and Orwell's doing that for a reason, from his own ideological position.

Again, I've seen many discussions around on the principles of socialism that just end in that Animal Farm quote. Putting this sort of thinking in to mind, I just don't think it's all that relevant to say the least. The rest is all above.


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knightsofthecircle

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Posted at: 11/7/09 08:02 PM

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The way I see it, Animal Farm's main point was this: No one person or persons should have the sole power of a government, whether it be a Monarchist, Communist or Dictatorshipist sense. In a way, I think Orwell had the same viewpoint as the Founding Fathers did during the American Revolution. That all power(s) dealing with local, state and federal government should be dealt with the general public.

Also, I think he also meant that if people feel oppresed long enough in a government, they will rebel against their leaders once the time is right. That's what happened to the British government, that's what happen to the U.S.S.R and that's what's going to happen to North Korea.

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Ranchero

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Posted at: 11/7/09 08:05 PM

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At 11/7/09 07:27 PM, Scarab wrote: Is it useful to use it as a way of explaining other lieftist theories, even the most moderate?

It has been awhile since I've read the book but: I think it takes the whole metaphor to such an extreme that it is really only useful as a satire against the most severe dictatorships.

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RydiaLockheart

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Posted at: 11/7/09 08:07 PM

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Wow dude, where have you been?


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ripoffhitman

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Posted at: 11/7/09 08:10 PM

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It was just a really satiric novel about the Russian Revolution and the making of Soviet Russia. I thought it was a good book. Not one of my favorites, but a good book. It's message is really outdated, so it's hard to see his Orwells point of view.

I read it a year ago, thought it was ok. It's just explaining that even though people hated the government they had, they simply gave all their power to certain people to make a new one, which gave them the same exact problems they had before. Instead of a shitty monarchy, they had a shitty communist government.


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Scarab

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Posted at: 11/8/09 11:02 AM

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At 11/7/09 08:02 PM, knightsofthecircle wrote: The way I see it, Animal Farm's main point was this: No one person or persons should have the sole power of a government, whether it be a Monarchist, Communist or Dictatorshipist sense. In a way, I think Orwell had the same viewpoint as the Founding Fathers did during the American Revolution. That all power(s) dealing with local, state and federal government should be dealt with the general public.

That's an interesting point of view, and it obviously fits in with what Orwell saw as a socialist and as a British writer in WW2. Who the corruption and autocracy correlates with (like I say, I'm maintaining the view for now that Animal Farm is a satire whose message isn't easily applicable across such a varied field of socio-political theory) I'm not always sure, with reference to what people have read as the Tehran conference scene at the end. Obviously there's Napoleon, but I think naming the other humans as either Nazis or Churchill/Roosevelt, is a tricky one... a consideration that questions the view I've backed! From what I know, Orwell was a critical theorist at heart, so it could've really been all of the above, with the "WW2 sequence" (where the farmers try to invade Animal Farm) aside for now.

Also, I think he also meant that if people feel oppresed long enough in a government, they will rebel against their leaders once the time is right. That's what happened to the British government, that's what happen to the U.S.S.R and that's what's going to happen to North Korea.

Yeah, that's a good point too, and that falls in line with some forms of critical theory, primarily the more traditional forms of Marxism. It's a message he probably would've actively injected from the very beginning. It's interesting you bring up North Korea, because as a country using an offshoot of Stalinism as its principle political ideology. In particular, this brief article sounds far too eerily familiar to moments in Animal Farm. As interested as I am in North Korea, I'm not entirely sure whether a reversal on the specifics will take place in the near future, but maybe I've not seen all the facts?

At 11/7/09 08:07 PM, RydiaLockheart wrote: Wow dude, where have you been?

While the themes of the story are pretty straightforward, my main reason for making this thread was a discussion about possible left-based responses to the situations we have today and receiving that line in response. I'm interested in seeing whether others believe that to be relevant... or a silly way of steering the discussion.

However, if you're speaking to me directly, I've not used the politics forum extensively in some time, though I should get into it again. I enjoy it ;)

Wait, who am I again? Ah, well...

At 11/7/09 08:10 PM, ripoffhitman wrote: I read it a year ago, thought it was ok. It's just explaining that even though people hated the government they had, they simply gave all their power to certain people to make a new one, which gave them the same exact problems they had before. Instead of a shitty monarchy, they had a shitty communist government.

This intrigues me. I believe Orwell specifically has the undertones of Animal Farm taken into the foreground (for the reader) once Napoleon takes power for himself. While the rest of the animals certainly fought to defend the farm under Snowball's command (Russian civil war), I'm not sure they give Napoleon the power to makes his own style of rule. With the dogs, terror is brought in forcefully. I think it's purposefully detatched from the concept of "power-from-below", or whatever the actual correct term is, once again given Orwell's disillusioned stance.

I also believe that Animal Farm, falling in line with the specific correlations again, doesn't do so "shitty" as far as output is concerned, using the windmill (cities like Gorky at the time?) and the absurd amount of economic strength built up by the first five-year plans under Stalin. But yeah, obviously quite shitty on the humanist side of things where Orwell lived.

***

Most of this post is probably very obvious to anyone who's read the book (and yes, I'm aware I'm a moron), but again, the reason why I bring it up is because more than a few people have tried to peel it off from its stickiness in history and apply it elsewhere. Then you open the book and well, for me, the words are all in the wrong place and the characters are different, non-sensical. It's not how I read everything, but Animal Farm is a classic example of a book I think it's neccessary to have this context majig about.


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WritersBlock

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Posted at: 11/8/09 11:22 AM

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At 11/7/09 07:27 PM, Scarab wrote: it had been sitting on my "must-read list" for some time. My main motivations for reading it included the usual lust for just getting to grips with various examples of modern classic literature

I haven't read Animal Farm yet, but I intend to some day. I've got Nineteen-Eighty Four sitting on my list of books to read for a little while now. Slowly chewing through it, but then I know I'll add to the pile sooner than I can chop it down. I don't really know much about politics and history, so I'd most certainly have a different reading of the story than yourself, however, I always find it interesting to see the various subjective interpretations of a single text, however I feel like you've objectified your ideas on the text really well and provided readers like myself with a lot more to think about when my day comes to read Animal Farm (and to some extent, Nineteen-Eighty Four, too).

However, I should hope that my ability to analyse texts like this will improve in the future, as I'll be spending the next two years going through Literary and Cultural Studies at university. After one semester, I've found the benefits to be very rewarding, and it's certainly given me a keener eye for classic literature, modern classics, or even the postmodern literary fiction of today.

I certainly look forward to the day where we can openly discuss this sort of thing in a writing/literature forum, as per the quite recent news announcement.


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Conspiracy3

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Posted at: 11/8/09 11:26 AM

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It's just a capitalist propaganda children's book. People shouldn't take it so seriously. 90% of it is bullshit.


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Scarab

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Posted at: 11/8/09 12:41 PM

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At 11/8/09 11:22 AM, WritersBlock wrote: I don't really know much about politics and history, so I'd most certainly have a different reading of the story than yourself, however, I always find it interesting to see the various subjective interpretations of a single text, however I feel like you've objectified your ideas on the text really well and provided readers like myself with a lot more to think about when my day comes to read Animal Farm (and to some extent, Nineteen-Eighty Four, too).

Oh yeah, I love discussing subjective interpretations of reading. Despite what I've been saying in this thread, Animal Farm actually does has a couple of characters and events in particular that are more ambiguous, and so are interesting to discuss, without me revealing more to you at this stage. Even some of the political context can be played with a little bit, and like I said, it is quite adaptable as a message, however "outdated" it may seem.

However, I should hope that my ability to analyse texts like this will improve in the future, as I'll be spending the next two years going through Literary and Cultural Studies at university. After one semester, I've found the benefits to be very rewarding, and it's certainly given me a keener eye for classic literature, modern classics, or even the postmodern literary fiction of today.

Definitely. The exact same things have happened to me. I'm partway through my first semester at university. The different ways of analysing texts, while taking their toll on me as theoretical principles at times, are interesting, and it makes you think more about your own writing, like we're both interested in. Like you say, it's all a great motivation to go out and read and watch a variety of different things from different eras and cultures.

I certainly look forward to the day where we can openly discuss this sort of thing in a writing/literature forum, as per the quite recent news announcement.

Again, I know exactly what you mean. Honestly, I do get quite excited about it! I want to challenge myself a bit with it too, and I think discussion's great for that. Example, I was reading about Russian Formalism and I was thinking a bit cautiously about it, downright negatively almost. After speaking to someone, I began to realise that the concept of the "genreless" has a great dollop of Russian Formalism right in the middle of it. Then you appreciate the theories on a different level, not just the creative works!

I know, I need to lie down for a minute or two ;)


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Posted at: 11/8/09 12:50 PM

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I thought you meant the Clutch song. Fuck books.

Takeajokelol I'll look into it later.

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morefngdbs

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Posted at: 11/8/09 02:13 PM

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At 11/8/09 11:26 AM, Conspiracy3 wrote: It's just a capitalist propaganda children's book. People shouldn't take it so seriously. 90% of it is bullshit.

;;;
Unless of course you look at our Govenments in Canada & the US...The fact that Goverenment officials enjoy perks & pay that is completely outside the workers in these countries can expect.
How big business is created for itself Upper echelon elite who are paid outrgeous sums for work that they take credit for ...but don't actually do.
If the bonus system worked the way it was intended...no failing company would pay out million in bonuses to those at the top who didn't stop the company from getting in financial difficulties that almost have bnkrupted the world economy.

So yeah, as long as you don't compare "we're all equal...just some of us are more equal than others, plus different rights for one group over another to say... to the American Constitution, your right its just propaganda !

Those who have only the religious opinions & thoughts of others in their head. Have no room for their own thoughts & no room to contemplate anyone elses ideas either.- More


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Keric

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Posted at: 11/8/09 03:00 PM

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At 11/7/09 07:27 PM, Scarab wrote:

TL;DR.

Book was horribly shitty.

Very, very, shitty.

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XxRobJohnsonxX

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At 11/7/09 07:37 PM, LardLord wrote: Welcome to 7th grade literature hour

Indeed.

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