Newgrounds.com — Everything, By Everyone.

At 11/1/09 09:54 AM, reverend wrote: Considering that most of the traffic on the internet, like 70% at minimum, still uses Internet Explorer 7 & 8 which has no ad-blocking capabilities

IE does have ad-blocking capabilities. Google "ad blocker IE" and you will see.

There was a business model - put ads around content. This business model is so old that it has appeared in newspapers from before any of you were born. Then technology came along and changed the market, allowing users to block those ads from their own computers. It's not stealing, it's not illegal, it's not a crime. It just means that the business model is outdated, and it's time these companies found a new way to advertise.

At 11/1/09 10:31 AM, SteveGuzzi wrote: And so have I... in addition to all the shit that IS on my user page. Besides the figurines I forgot about the Pico Unloaded shirt (which I think they should bring back, but anyway...) from the old CafePress site in addition to some other junk like a mug or two or whatever.

It seems to me you were attacking my point because I hadn't bought NG stuff (or so my userpage says).

If the point of store purchases is moot then why are they pushing for more and more store products, specials, limited/collector's edition items, et cetera? Is it because, hmmm, there's a much larger profit margin involved with moving product as opposed to ad views/clicks?

Maybe there is a much larger profit margin, but that doesn't mean they don't care about adverts. Adverts are where the majority of Newgrounds revenue comes from, without them Newgrounds would die. There's a much larger profit margin involved in selling eggs for $1,000, doesn't mean they can sustain that.

I'm well aware, I said several times that it was a generous estimate. Your ad impressions have in all likelihood generated much much less.

I don't get what you're saying here... I said that over the past few months I had loaded Newgrounds 40,000 times and then you said month... eh

Now why would you admit it's hypocritical and say "but we all are" if you really DO watch all the ads on TV? It is because, um, you actually don't? I mean really, are you honestly trying to argue that you watch ALL the ads on TV whether DVR'd orrr live? Pff, give me a break. Like you actually feel obligated to sit and pay attention to ads for Old Spice deodorant because you want to support the National Broadcasting Company or what-have-you. Fff.

I live in England, I don't have any sort of magical Advert avoiding hardware. I have a TV that plugs into an aerial and I receive TV, if I want to watch TV I will sit down and assuming I'm watching a commercial channel I'll sit through the adverts that happen every 15 minutes. I don't feel obligated to Watch them, but they're on my TV. I don't look at all the adverts on newgrounds but they're still being displayed.

When did I advocate or promote ad blocking for the majority? Oh right, I didn't. When did I proclaim that I personally block ads with no concern about it's repercussions? Oh right, I didn't. Furthermore, I already said that the only time I've ever blocked ads was when the ads interfered with the actual usage of the website.

You're saying equating Advert blocking to stealing is wrong and that anyone who does it is a cunt and I'm saying that anyone who blocks adverts, regardless of the reason is a cunt. So what if you've spent $10,000 in the store? You're still expected to view adverts, if they didn't want that then they'd give you the option to disable them properly, wouldn't they?

You've bought something, great, then this thread isn't about you.

It is because I'm the sort of person you're calling a dick. I don't care if you've spent money in the store, blocking adverts is wrong. Okay if you've spent money in the store then fine, go ahead and block them it's not as if Tom is going to shout at you but it still isn't the right thing to do.

You want to show your appreciation? Buy some shit, otherwise, shut the fuck up.

What about those who can't afford it? What about those who don't have access to means to pay for Newgrounds merch?

At 11/1/09 10:37 AM, STEM wrote: This business model is so old that it has appeared in newspapers from before any of you were born.

Yes, EXACTLY. The only reason I refrained from mentioning ads in print is because it's assumed you do pay at least something upfront, whether its $0.50 cents for a newspaper or $3.50 for a magazine.

Shit... billboards on highways, signs at bus stops, pictures on supermarket carts... etc etc etc.

Who really WELCOMES this stuff? No one. But it is what it is: a business model.

It just annoys the shit out of me when people try to vilify others for not being interested in the same exact shit THEY aren't interested in, even IF those other people have done more to support the company than they have. Oh no, I'd rather not look at this irrelevant garbage that has nothing to do with what I'm here for and actually reduces the quality of my time spent here... I'M A BAAAAAD BAAAAAAAD PERSON.

At 11/1/09 09:34 AM, Soaked wrote:

At 11/1/09 06:42 AM, robin1232 wrote: no, its not the same thing, the commercials on tv are already paid for, its not like the tv station earns less money because you don't watch them.

Don't the ads still count has being viewed (NOT clicked on), even when they are blocked?

if they're blocked, they don't load and they wouldn't count as viewed.

At 11/1/09 10:44 AM, citricsquid wrote: I don't get what you're saying here... I said that over the past few months I had loaded Newgrounds 40,000 times and then you said month... eh

I'm saying, AGAIN, that I was being extremely generous with the estimation. You said 40,000 the past several months... and I figured well hey, what if it was 40,000..., no, even 50,000 per single month? I'd STILL have contributed more out of pocket compared to that exorbitant overestimation of a single person's ad impression revenue during several years of heavy site usage. In reality you've surely been here much less, meaning your impressions contributed much less, all while what I've spent out of pocket remains the exact same.

I don't look at all the adverts on newgrounds but they're still being displayed.

So great. You can pat yourself on the back for not blocking ads... but not so much for not being interested in them, for not clicking them, and for not signing up for anything.

You're saying equating Advert blocking to stealing is wrong and that anyone who does it is a cunt and I'm saying that anyone who blocks adverts, regardless of the reason is a cunt.

No, I'm saying that people who want to mouth off about ad blocking on the web (when they most certainly ignore ads on TV, in print, and elsewhere) should shut the fuck up, because, as YOU ADMITTED YOURSELF, they're acting like hypocrites.

So what if you've spent $10,000 in the store? You're still expected to view adverts, if they didn't want that then they'd give you the option to disable them properly, wouldn't they?

You do realize they've tossed around the idea before, right? Having a premium membership of sorts? If they had followed-through, and if the price-point was right, I more than likely would've gotten on board. So if they had that and I signed-up for like $15/year to have no ads, would you still be acting like such a self-righteous douche? Now since they DON'T have the option yet I still show my appreciation by spending money in the NG Store (figurines? plushes? this certainly isn't shit I need, it's a friggin donation + some useless trinket to put on a shelf somewhere) ... that makes everything entirely different HOW?

It is because I'm the sort of person you're calling a dick.

Not if you've spent money like you claim to have. Hell, even $5 worth of stickers for what HAS registered gets you a pass.

What about those who can't afford it? What about those who don't have access to means to pay for Newgrounds merch?

No one is obligated to buy a fucking thing. It's all voluntary. That being said, people who haven't bought anything should shut the fuck up in regards towards people who HAVE spent their own money and who just MIGHT express some sort of disdain for web advertisements.

To reference it again ---- if you read reviews at all, you'll see the last month or two or whatever had a shit-ton of reviews claiming that such&such movie/game was broken because it kept resetting randomly. That was because of those godawful video ads on the Portal view page. That period is the ONLY period in which I've blocked web ads (EVER), and I caught shit from people going "wahhh stop being a bitch and just support the site wahhh." Well, no, fuck that noise if it screws-up the site itself... and shut the fuck up you poor shits who want to rag on me for blocking something when you won't even lend a goddamn dime yourselves to cats who provide you with a boatload of entirely free entertainment for nothing. UGHGHGHGHGH

That makes no sense. Now everything is considered STEALING.

At 11/1/09 11:23 AM, junkietomato wrote: That makes no sense. Now everything is considered STEALING.

you're stealing oxygen from the rest of the planet plz stop kthx

At 11/1/09 11:21 AM, SteveGuzzi wrote: You do realize they've tossed around the idea before, right? Having a premium membership of sorts? If they had followed-through, and if the price-point was right, I more than likely would've gotten on board. So if they had that and I signed-up for like $15/year to have no ads, would you still be acting like such a self-righteous douche? Now since they DON'T have the option yet I still show my appreciation by spending money in the NG Store (figurines? plushes? this certainly isn't shit I need, it's a friggin donation + some useless trinket to put on a shelf somewhere) ... that makes everything entirely different HOW?

You're paying directly for the privilege. If newgrounds said "hey here's a premium membership, $20 a year and no adverts!" I'd buy it in a heartbeat (as I said to Tom!) and I'd happily do without adverts because I'd paid for the privilege. If Tom said "Hey, we're offering a premium membership, you get a fancy green icon and a picture of a dick for your userpage for only $20 a year!" I'd buy it, but that doesn't give me the right to block adverts. Unless they expressly say "you have done x, you can go without adverts" you're going against their wishes.

So the fuck what if you bought $5 of stickers or $1,000 of t-shirts? You should be buying those because you want to support Newgrounds (or want the merch) not because you think it makes it morally okay to block adverts. I don't care if you block adverts, go for it, but I'll still think you're a dick regardless of what you've spent on Newgrounds and I'll vehemently discourage anyone from doing the same.

I don't donate to poor people so I can treat them like shit, I don't donate to starving children in Africa so I can continue to buy clothes made by them when they're paid fuck all and treated like shit, I do that because I want to support them. A donation should be because you want to support, not because you want shit that they don't list in return. You seem to be using this to clear your conscience or some shit.

At 11/1/09 07:14 AM, AlkaSeltzer wrote: No company can claim loss of revenue against me for blocking ads because i would never click on them if they existed.

They earn money on eCPM, which is cash for every 1k views. I pretty sure it won't matter much if you don't click on any.

whenever i can, i try to avoid ads, by fastfowarding through dvd previews, and block tracking cookies on my computer

speaking of ads, i feel like if certain video game companies are going to soil their games with obnoxious ads, they should reduce the price of the game, advertising isnt free and we should not pay $60 to watch a bunch of billboards that say "panasonic" or "gamefly" or "5 gum", hell even there was a song in guitar hero 3 that was an ad for a car, (black sunshine)

At 11/1/09 09:56 AM, citricsquid wrote: Newgrounds provides a service and in return they expect you to view adverts. Advert views are the currency you pay for the service you receive. It's the same way you go to a shop, they give you some candy and you give them money, you come to newgrounds, they give you lovely content and you give them ad views. Stealing probably isn't the right word, but it's exactly the same principle.

No adverts are just a fishing hook just trying to get me to buy something. They pay for the rights to place an ad on the site and Newgrounds grants them that permission for a fee (in a general sense); it's not a requirement or a prerequisite to view the ads to be on this site or any other site. An advertiser's goal is for a person spread knowledge about his product in hopes some end up at turnaround; not to be an usher asking for your movie ticket and denying you if you don't have one.

Newgrounds has half a million unique visitors per day so it's a good investment for another company to place an ad in hope maybe fraction will at least view his product. That's why you see billboards in Times Square. An advertiser doesn't expect every single person that goes there to view each and every billboard, nor do they deny people from entering there if they don't. Advertising is a risk a business takes to get their information out. They know that it won't hit everyone nor do they expect it. All they want is a slice of Newgrounds' traffic pie

At 11/1/09 11:21 AM, SteveGuzzi wrote: That period is the ONLY period in which I've blocked web ads (EVER), and I caught shit from people going "wahhh stop being a bitch and just support the site wahhh." Well, no, fuck that noise if it screws-up the site itself... and shut the fuck up you poor shits who want to rag on me for blocking something when you won't even lend a goddamn dime yourselves to cats who provide you with a boatload of entirely free entertainment for nothing. UGHGHGHGHGH

I think that is part of something else in the Newgrounds community. Some users seem to think that somewhere in the terms and conditions, there's a point about treating everyone who brings up a more negative point as a child. It's hard to explain, but look at any threads on the NG Chat for instance, as another example. A user, who may or may not use the forums regularly (and is unaware of the search function), politely asks why the chat rooms are yet to be released and receives only "Stop whining stupid bitch", or something, in return. It's like the users that give the sorts of responses like that, "stop whining about the ads" and so on, simply have their responses pre-copied onto their clipboard.

Due to this sort of usage in the forums, I can understand why you might be frustrated. I'm maintaining that it's just a forum thing that some users do for reasons unrelated to the actual issue (boredom, etc., I don't know). It's a different argument than "Are ads important to the site?" I think. It's a style of "convenience posting" I wish people could snap out of, honestly. It's not like people bringing up a point that's already been discussed a few times is going to cause life as we know to end, you know? It just requires a bit of patience, on all sides actually.

So, I'm like, rambling here. I don't have any real feelings regarding the ad system itself, since I don't use the Flash portal anywhere near as much as I used to, so the banners are just there for me, like they've always been. It's great to know you've got something from the store. That's something that makes me guilty at times, though I hope to spend some money there soon. Otherwise, I'd just advise anyone to look further than the convenience posters, because they probably don't mean their points seriously - it's all about having a big number under your picture, or looking like a big man in what's apparently a kiddies' world, or something silly like that.

As for alternatives to Internet ads as business models, I think any ideas would just be received with hostility, like they are now. It's this image of the Internet: to many it's a place that's completely disconnected to the frameworks of our developed societies. The Internet is, unfortunately, bought out every day, every hour, by someone else.

I'm a thinker, not a do-er.

I also think I missed any references to your actual argument.

At 11/1/09 11:31 AM, citricsquid wrote: Unless they expressly say "you have done x, you can go without adverts" you're going against their wishes.

They don't need to explicitly say "we want money!" for anyone to realize that they want money.

Their wish is money -- for maintenance, for growth, to live on, to encourage users, etc. Whether it's ad clicks or product purchases, partnerships, sponsorships... WHATEVER. Like everyone and everything else they need money to get by on. So, if I've already given MORE than a person is expected to give through method B then I couldn't give fuck all about method A.

So the fuck what if you bought $5 of stickers or $1,000 of t-shirts? You should be buying those because you want to support Newgrounds (or want the merch) not because you think it makes it morally okay to block adverts.

Hey asshat... out of everything I've said, what makes you think that was EVER the purpose?

You seem to be using this to clear your conscience or some shit.

Why does my conscience need clearing when I've, at most, blocked one month's worth of ads during, at least, a decade's worth of use? In addition to spending a buttload I never needed to? Are you illiterate or some shit?

Me: "hypocrites should either STFU or at the least open up their own wallets."
You: "ddaarrhhh you shouldn't buy stuff JUST to say you don't have to view ads dddaarrrhhhh."

News flash: I never bought anything from NG as if it was just some premeditated plan to not have to click ads or some shit. It's just an adjunct to my whole point that I still contribute towards NG's financial well-being, and probably more so than a majority of its users. Jesus fuckin Christ. Starving kids in Africa? What the fuuuuuuck are you talking about?

Personally, I think it's fine to buy from the store or to not block the adverts as far as I know they could be any amount of money. But it's still doing your fair share of support. Yes, I do skip through the ads on television but I don't skip through the ones on NG as they're different. Paying for an ad on television is far more expensive than paying for an ad on websites. So whether or not I watch the ads on tv is pretty irrelevant because if I'm not interested in the product then I can mute it or skip through because the only one who is losing money from that is the advertisers who were gonna lose it anyway because I'm not interested. Now on NG the ads are still giving ng money whether or not you click on them but CLICKING on them and seeing them also gives NG money as opposed to on television. Buying something from the advertiser on television isn't going to give the show/network any more money than the original ad.

Guzzi has a serious, valid point that we should all take into consideration.

Even if it is considered stealing, most of the people who visit the site are what, 14 and under? They don't have enough brain power to type reviews without raping the English language, so what makes you think they have enough brain power to figure out AdBlock?

Like 1 out of 10,000 NG users use Adblock. Even if it's stealing, you only have a few hundred people using it whereas more than a million people visit Newgrounds everyday.

I guess it's robbing Newgrounds of the chance that people will click the ads.

At 11/1/09 11:51 AM, Scarab wrote: I also think I missed any references to your actual argument.

LOL... it's fine... it was still a good contribution. I appreciate it. I think you're right in the sense that it's probably a knee-jerk forum reaction sort of thing... and I guess I lose sight of that sometimes and take that type of shit way more seriously than I really should.

"BLAAHHHH click ads!" ... and I'm like... 'who the fuck are YOU?'

When really, the question is, why should I even care?

Heh thanks for putting it into perspective.

At 11/1/09 07:14 AM, robin1232 wrote: your just a dick, don't block ads, period.

I block ads all the time, especially on this site.

At 11/1/09 10:37 AM, STEM wrote: There was a business model - put ads around content. This business model is so old that it has appeared in newspapers from before any of you were born. Then technology came along and changed the market, allowing users to block those ads from their own computers. It's not stealing, it's not illegal, it's not a crime. It just means that the business model is outdated, and it's time these companies found a new way to advertise.

I agree that the business model is stupid and doesn't work "well" but that doesn't give me or anyone the right to refuse to support Newgrounds chosen business model. The way the music industry works is fucking stupid but that doesn't make it right to pirate music.

At 11/1/09 11:59 AM, Twilight wrote: Like 1 out of 10,000 NG users use Adblock. Even if it's stealing, you only have a few hundred people using it whereas more than a million people visit Newgrounds everyday.

Adblock has over 60,000,000 downloads. I highly doubt that equates to 1 in 10,000 users, more like 1 in 100.

At 11/1/09 11:54 AM, SteveGuzzi wrote: Hey asshat... out of everything I've said, what makes you think that was EVER the purpose?

Please explain the purpose of this topic then, because I don't get where this is going. You seem to object to people saying that adblocking is bad IF the person has bought from the store, therefore you're saying it's okay to block adverts if you're buying from the store, right? Then uh...

I choose not to sit through ads for convenience and the sake of my computer not crashing.

Talking about ad block...eh...i got this and i dont even have a ad-blocker

At 11/1/09 12:08 PM, citricsquid wrote: Please explain the purpose of this topic then, because I don't get where this is going.

Well, just in circles at this juncture.

Seriously, the last part of your first post is the only thing you really needed to say in this whole thread.

people are hypocrites /end

At 11/1/09 12:15 PM, SteveGuzzi wrote: Seriously, the last part of your first post is the only thing you really needed to say in this whole thread.

people are hypocrites /end

That is true :D Still, adblock is bad and anyone who uses it is most likely gay! :'(

No, it's my computer and I have a right to choose how my web page is displayed. Just like I have a right to change channels and watch another show while commercials are running. I won't click on any of the ads, so why even have them displayed? I have ad-block, and if Tom doesn't like it, he can't do anything about it. Sure, he can ban me from BBS, but that won't take my ad-block off.

It isn't morally wrong to block ads, but if you like the site and the site is relying on ad revenue to make money, it might behoove you to simply let them show up so long as they aren't interupting your experience.

Think of it this way:

If, say, roughly 50% of NG had ad-blocker off, then they would see two or three ads every time they changed a page.
Every time you navigate through pages- like, going from general, to VG, to reading a thread, to posting in that thread, back to General- thats a bit of ad revenue. It's a lot of money.

Don't feel guilty- Tom is the 13th richest webmaster, last time I checked.

Ad block on this website for example is not needed. It's easy to get past banners on the sides of movies and on the sides of the front page, and the ones in your user page and on the forums page. The biggest thing is that these ads are not playing before you can watch a flash video.

The websites where you are required to watch a video ad before you can watch a video on that site is where ad block is needed. The visual ads may be distracting but they at least don't take away from watching a video right away. An ad that takes away time from you watching a video though is crossing the line and I can proudly say that I use Ad Block on certain websites because of that.

THe thing is that people block banner ads.
What is that shit? There's a space on the website designed SPECIFICALLY for them. If you block them and replace them with a black square, you have achieved nothing other than make sure ads are worth less and less overall on the web.

It's basically like buying a magazine with all the ads blacked out instead of just removed :O

At 11/1/09 12:43 PM, poxpower wrote: It's basically like buying a magazine with all the ads blacked out instead of just removed :O

What surprised me when I installed the AdBlocker thingie is that, it DID just remove them.

Like, you see how the ads are framed by the NG table layout dealio, the gray fade with rounded corners then pixel box THEN the ad inside? Yeah, that entire section disappears. No empty black box, no hollow frame, just a seamless transition from the navbar to the next section without a space in-between.

It was neat and all, but like I said, I only used it during-and-for those video ads on the Portal view pages. Once those were phased out I disabled it.