Installed Linux, want to program.

[DeviantSpaceMan]

It was a lot easier than I imagined it would be, I'm dual booting by the way.

But the question; is there anything I can do with it that I couldn't do on windows vista? I installed it because I wanted to learn to code in a desired environment. I've played around with it a bit, but it doesn't appear to be beneficial? (To someone of my skill level anyway).

So in what ways is Ubuntu or any Linux operating system better for programming?

[UnknownFear]

At 10/30/09 10:41 AM, DeviantSpaceMan wrote: So in what ways is Ubuntu or any Linux operating system better for programming?

Not sure as I haven't programmed in Ubuntu, but to me it has that "programmy" environment to it. For instance, I love using the Terminal and running things with it.

[CronoMan]

At 10/30/09 10:58 AM, UnknownFear wrote:

At 10/30/09 10:41 AM, DeviantSpaceMan wrote: So in what ways is Ubuntu or any Linux operating system better for programming?

Not sure as I haven't programmed in Ubuntu, but to me it has that "programmy" environment to it. For instance, I love using the Terminal and running things with it.

Heh..

In my opinion, Linux isn't in any way or form better for programming; windows has a much wider range of available development tools, a much bigger library and an infinitely larger userbase
On Linux, you are more or less forced to either use C/C++ or Java, unless you want to go for one of those icky scripting languages

[UnknownFear]

At 10/30/09 11:09 AM, CronoMan wrote: In my opinion, Linux isn't in any way or form better for programming; windows has a much wider range of available development tools, a much bigger library and an infinitely larger userbase
On Linux, you are more or less forced to either use C/C++ or Java, unless you want to go for one of those icky scripting languages

I get what you mean. I'm just saying, I love to mess around with the Terminal. Gives you a feel of being a hacker :P

[urbn]

At 10/30/09 11:09 AM, CronoMan wrote: On Linux, you are more or less forced to either use C/C++ or Java,

I wouldn't say it was bad though, I found it easier to program for all platforms with Linux (personally) using C or C++.

unless you want to go for one of those icky scripting languages

While I realise you don't seem to really approve of the scripting languages, they can be powerful when used in the right situations.

[Peaceblossom]

To be honest, I prefer working with the Linux terminal for navigating my operating system. I'm not a fan of using Command Prompt or Explorer.

I use a pretty minimalistic environment in Linux. You should try to get used to the terminal as well, because it's a neat tool.

Note that when you open the terminal your default position is going to be at /home/UserName/ (That's right, there's no C:\ drive). It is abbreviated as just a ~. For instance ~/Desktop is actually /home/UserName/Desktop.

Here's some commands to get you started.

mkdir <name> - makes a director with the name you choose.

cd <directory> changes your directory either relative to the one you're in now, or to a path you specify.

rm <filename> - use this carefully, as it deletes shit, and there's no recycling bin.

ls - lists all the files in a directory

cp <name> <newname> - copies and pastes a file the the new name you specify while keeping the old one intact. You can specify a directory if you wish.

You can google a big list of other commands, but that should help. Note that you can open files, execute prgrams, and actually execute your source code from the terminal.

For example: typing "firefox" without the quotes should open a firefox browser. Typing "gedit filename" will open a notepad type program with the filename you specified. If the file doesn't exist, it will create it for you. Typing python <filename.py> will execute your python program named filename.py inside the terminal using a virtual machine.

Hope that helps, if you have any questions PM me. Good luck!

[urbn]

At 10/30/09 11:46 AM, Peaceblossom wrote: I use a pretty minimalistic environment in Linux. You should try to get used to the terminal as well, because it's a neat tool.

Openbox with no desktop or task manager is what I'm using, feels awesome and only uses around 50MB of RAM idle.

rm <filename> - use this carefully, as it deletes shit, and there's no recycling bin.

"rmdir" to remove directories that are empty as well.

ls - lists all the files in a directory

Just to say "dir" still works for this.

execute your source code from the terminal.

Biggest bonus in my opinion.

[Peaceblossom]

At 10/30/09 01:10 PM, urbn wrote:

execute your source code from the terminal.

Biggest bonus in my opinion.

It's something I enjoy thoroughly as well.

I should have mentioned that cd can be run as "cd .." to change your directory up one level. When executing any of your source code you need to either be in the same directory as your file, or specify its path.

eg.

python sourcecode.py

or

python /home/UserName/Desktop/sourcecode.py

I also like the ability to pipe things. Works the same way in windows, but I mean, the Linux shell is pretty great. Pipes are useful if you want to use the output of one program as input for an other program. For example, in Computer Science there's a Java program called Quickdraw which when executed allows you to enter text in order to draw primitive shapes, among other things. Manually typing lines would get pretty tedious, so you can use python to output certain strings of text which is piped into this java application in order to make tasks easier.

I created a python program that makes use of loops to draw about 400 short line segments in order to approximate a 3rd degree polynomial whose coefficients and y-intercept are specified by the user. Simply running the python program would produce a ton of text in the terminal but when ran with a pipe to the java applet, it looks something like the picture below. The symbol for a pipe is a vertical line ( | ), and is used like so:

python curve.py | java -jar quickdraw.jar

I have no idea how to use code HTML tags, so I hope this works alright. This is also from a Sabayon install using compiz and emerald =/

[Jon-86]

At 10/30/09 10:41 AM, DeviantSpaceMan wrote: But the question; is there anything I can do with it that I couldn't do on windows vista?

Its not what you can do but what you have access to. GNU Linux is open-source so you can take any part of it, change it and recompile it. Where as with windows they don't provide the source so fixing the OS or adding anything to it can only be done using Microsoft's APIs and theirs some things they just dont publish or want you to have access to!

[UnknownFear]

At 10/30/09 03:29 PM, Peaceblossom wrote: I created a python program that makes use of loops to draw about 400 short line segments in order to approximate a 3rd degree polynomial whose coefficients and y-intercept are specified by the user.

I love the outcome. By the way, what terminal are you using?

[Peaceblossom]

At 10/30/09 05:59 PM, UnknownFear wrote:

At 10/30/09 03:29 PM, Peaceblossom wrote: I created a python program that makes use of loops to draw about 400 short line segments in order to approximate a 3rd degree polynomial whose coefficients and y-intercept are specified by the user.

I love the outcome. By the way, what terminal are you using?

Just the gnome-terminal. I'm not sure how to set up the color scheme, as it was the operating system default.

[bgraybr]

Programming on Linux > Programming on Windows (at least for me). Most Linux distributions come with a C/C++ and Java compiler, Perl and Python, make (for makefiles), and shell script, which is like batch but Linux terminal > command prompt so it can be useful. Opensource is great because if you have to or want to you can change almost any program.

Eh... Ubuntu. I'd go with something Slackware or Arch based if you really want to learn how to use Linux.

[Peaceblossom]

At 10/30/09 08:00 PM, bgraybr wrote: Programming on Linux > Programming on Windows (at least for me). Most Linux distributions come with a C/C++ and Java compiler, Perl and Python, make (for makefiles), and shell script, which is like batch but Linux terminal > command prompt so it can be useful. Opensource is great because if you have to or want to you can change almost any program.

Eh... Ubuntu. I'd go with something Slackware or Arch based if you really want to learn how to use Linux.

Well, ideally Gentoo for the ultimate learning experience. There's nothing wrong with starting with Ubuntu. I know partitioning / dual booting is a pain in the ass with anything non-graphical, especially if its your first time using Linux.

[UnknownFear]

At 10/30/09 08:00 PM, bgraybr wrote: Eh... Ubuntu. I'd go with something Slackware or Arch based if you really want to learn how to use Linux.

I'm currently running Ubuntu flawlessly. Mind you, I've never actually tried any other distribution other than Ubuntu. I absolutely love it. Only downfall? I've been spending too much time on Windows 7 and not enough time on Linux. Reason why? Games, software for my online Math course, etc. I really want to spend more time on Linux, or at least balance it out to spending equal amount of time on both OS's.

[urbn]

At 10/30/09 08:00 PM, bgraybr wrote: Eh... Ubuntu. I'd go with something Slackware or Arch based if you really want to learn how to use Linux.

Arch Linux is awesome, my server runs it. However, I think Ubuntu is a bit gentler on newcomers to the Linux scene, especially with the no hassle setup.

[DeviantSpaceMan]

At 10/30/09 09:55 PM, urbn wrote:

At 10/30/09 08:00 PM, bgraybr wrote: Eh... Ubuntu. I'd go with something Slackware or Arch based if you really want to learn how to use Linux.

Arch Linux is awesome, my server runs it. However, I think Ubuntu is a bit gentler on newcomers to the Linux scene, especially with the no hassle setup.

I did a bit of research on the type of Linux which would be most user friendly, being the reason I chose Ubuntu. I'll change it when I feel ready I guess.

One thing I do like about it though is that it is really customisable, it lets me set up my workspace in any way I please with ease. And it comes installed with a nice package of useful programs.

[mrgreg846]

At 10/30/09 10:27 PM, DeviantSpaceMan wrote:

At 10/30/09 09:55 PM, urbn wrote:

At 10/30/09 08:00 PM, bgraybr wrote: Eh... Ubuntu. I'd go with something Slackware or Arch based if you really want to learn how to use Linux.

Arch Linux is awesome, my server runs it. However, I think Ubuntu is a bit gentler on newcomers to the Linux scene, especially with the no hassle setup.

I did a bit of research on the type of Linux which would be most user friendly, being the reason I chose Ubuntu. I'll change it when I feel ready I guess.

One thing I do like about it though is that it is really customisable, it lets me set up my workspace in any way I please with ease. And it comes installed with a nice package of useful programs.

Might I suggest Gentoo? Granted it has the most manual installation process, but that teaches you a lot about just how the installation works, and a great head start if you're new to the command-line world. Just a thought. Also if you do try Gentoo, get ready to rtfm.

[Alphabit]

I don't like programming in Linux... The only reason I'd use it is if I was programming a server of sorts; because Linux is generally more lightweight and stable than windows... Plus it's free (which is a big+ when it comes to server technology)

[bgraybr]

Hmm... I don't know I just don't like Ubuntu, or any other Linux distribution that's designed to be "user friendly". Because:

1. The default window manager is Gnome. Its easy to use but I'd rather use iceWM, because its faster. A lot of people think its ugly but I don't see why that matters, and anyways there are some pretty good themes for it. I know I could change the default window manager in a couple of seconds but it still annoys me.

2. I don't like typing sudo <command> and then my password every time I want to do something as root.

3. When I opened up the file manager and went to /usr/bin to change something all of the files were hidden because "these are vital system files and you might hurt your poor computer". Reminds me to much of Windows/Mac.

4. This isn't Linux. When I click on "tour: I want to see details about the distribution, not an advertisement for it.

All of the things that make the distro "user friendly" just take up memory and make things run slower. I like my computer to be lightning fast, when I click on a program I expect it to open instantly.

Ubuntu just seems like an operating system for people that want Windows/Mac but don't want to pay a lot of money.

I recommend Absolute or Vector Linux, and if you still insist on going with something Ubuntu based go with Crunchbang.

Screen shot of Absolute. See? It looks great but is still fast fast fast.

[Peaceblossom]

At 10/31/09 12:47 AM, bgraybr wrote: Hmm... I don't know I just don't like Ubuntu, or any other Linux distribution that's designed to be "user friendly". Because:

1. The default window manager is Gnome. Its easy to use but I'd rather use iceWM, because its faster. A lot of people think its ugly but I don't see why that matters, and anyways there are some pretty good themes for it. I know I could change the default window manager in a couple of seconds but it still annoys me.

There are plenty of managers better than IceWM or Gnome. Gnome and KDE are great for visual effects, which is one of the many perks of Linux. It doesn't really affect me if I use an extra 2% of my RAM, as I'm not on a budget machine by any means. Perhaps if I had 256mb of RAM it'd be a different story. On those older machines I prefer Fluxbox to IceWM, and urbn mentioned Openbox which seems lightweight but at the same time very pretty.

2. I don't like typing sudo <command> and then my password every time I want to do something as root.

Wouldn't you still have to use su on other distributions? I've yet to use a distribution that allows users to execute commands as root without typing in some sort of password first. Please tell me you're not working as root by default.

3. When I opened up the file manager and went to /usr/bin to change something all of the files were hidden because "these are vital system files and you might hurt your poor computer". Reminds me to much of Windows/Mac.

sudo nautilus

But if you're so "hardcore", why are you navigating graphically anyway? If I wanted to edit or create something in /usr/bin I'd use nano or gedit from the terminal.

4. This isn't Linux. When I click on "tour: I want to see details about the distribution, not an advertisement for it.

There's a link on the bottom of that page which gives a little more information. But Ubuntu's goal is to be user friendly. Not everyone wants to feel like a 1337 H4X0R when they're working on a computer, I know that when I was setting up my dad's computer, he just wanted it to work. He can check his email, use his iPod, watch movies, listen to music, use YouTube, use Google Earth, and read most filetypes in some way or an other. I haven't had to help him with anything on Linux in about a year because he can do everything he needs to after having worked with me to set it up in a couple hours one afternoon.

All of the things that make the distro "user friendly" just take up memory and make things run slower. I like my computer to be lightning fast, when I click on a program I expect it to open instantly.

Maybe if you're working on a budget machine you want to streamline all its features at the cost of looks. If you have anything post-2006, you'll realize yourcomputer should have no trouble running Ubuntu with multiple open applications and compiz-fusion in full swing.

Ubuntu just seems like an operating system for people that want Windows/Mac but don't want to pay a lot of money.

Well, wouldn't you agree that it's quite incredible that free software exists that can get us this close to something produced by Microsoft or Apple?

I recommend Absolute or Vector Linux, and if you still insist on going with something Ubuntu based go with Crunchbang.

Absolute would be difficult for a new user to set up, Vector is basically the Ubuntu of slackware based distros, and to me, Crunchbag just seems like a pain in the ass to find any resource or help with.

Screen shot of Absolute. See? It looks great but is still fast fast fast.

It's funny that you bash Ubuntu being too much like Windows, when you have a Windows 95-esque feel to your desktop, complete with a "Start" button.

[blah569]

I never really cared for Ubuntu, but I really like 9.10. It's very fast, very stable, and very smooth. Runs very well. Very quick boot time, and my applications respond very quickly. Able to compile, link, and index objects in my projects in under seconds.

I have a shell script that compiles out several (*.c) files into (*.o), makes two binaries from (*.s) and (*.asm), links all of the files together, and creates an (*.iso) with grub installed that loads binary the kernel from /main/kernel.bin ~~sec. Very fast to make my kernel binary, and then very fast to test in qemu / vbox.

I prefer using Linux for doing any programming, but that depends on what you're wanting to create. If you're familar with .NET, you can use Mono / Mono Develop, it even has a RAD for building interfaces.

[blah569]

At 10/31/09 04:39 AM, blah569 wrote: creates an (*.iso) with grub installed that loads binary the

lol, just read over my post.

- creates an (*.iso), then moving grub to /boot/grub/ with menu.lst

[urbn]

At 10/31/09 12:47 AM, bgraybr wrote: 1. The default window manager is Gnome.

Ubuntulite has Openbox / PCManFM installed out of the box. No gnome.

2. I don't like typing sudo <command> and then my password every time

su? Or in Nautilus tools > Open as Root (or something like that).

3. When I opened up the file manager and went to /usr/bin to change something all of the files were hidden

No idea what you mean, I could see everything... Ctrl+H will also show hidden files and will stay like that until you next press Ctrl+H.

4. This isn't Linux.

Ubuntu it aimed at the average (Windows) user. It is not trying to preach to the converted, especially not the geekier ones.

All of the things that make the distro "user friendly" just take up memory and make things run slower.

Kind of part of point 4, most people will be running Windows Vista or Windows 7 by now (those that look more for change anyway) so likely hood is they don't have a Intel PII with 128MB RAM, a 4MB Onboard video card and 10GB of hard disk space.

Ubuntu just seems like an operating system for people that want Windows/Mac but don't want to pay a lot of money.

Still kind of part of point 4, this is almost exactly what they are advertising.
"Get Ubuntu, just like Windows or Mac, but free, secure and fun".

Screen shot of Absolute. See? It looks great but is still fast fast fast.

But it's going to be far more alien to those fresh from Windows, or those who are not power users. And what the hell is going on with a "Start" button in that screenshot? Infact the whole taskbar looks hideous. Tint2 is far nicer.

Iit seems PeachBlossom has already posted pretty much the same thing but better... Oh well...

[thoughtpolice]

At work I write code on Linux (Debian 5.0) AND Windows (with keyboard/mouse shared between screens with synergy - I recommend it.) I also write code on Mac OS X at home, which is fairly unix-y.

First: I do not believe your options for programming language choice is more restricted on Linux/OSX. If you want your .NET languages, you can have them. If you want your scripting languages, you can use them (AND you can use them on Windows too, you know.) C/C++ is fine. Java is not hard to install on either. Plenty of languages run on the .NET and JVM, which are available for both platforms.

I do not generally find the tools more restrictive than Windows either. I think that the effort invested in learning to use your command line and the tools it has effectively is very much worth it in the long run. If you are used to the command line (cmd.exe) on windows, know it is essentially the most inferior command line shell on earth. Shells like ZSH have great features that make life easy. I think that doing things the 'unix' way of just having commands and piping them through each other is a good principle and works in practice: some of these individual tools suck, but at least they may only suck at *one* specific thing rather than a multitude of them ;).

Lots of your tools on Linux are free. There are some very very good alternatives to the pay-for development tools on windows, but like all things of this vein, there aren't always good free analogues to the pay-for stuff and vice versa.

To mention some tools on both Windows AND Linux:

* I recommend at the very least having a good Text Editor that you know well, that's available on ANY platform. I naturally suggest you try either Vim or Emacs, because they are available on almost every operating system you could think of using, they're very powerful and free.
* Visual Studio 2008 (I use Team System) is awesome. I totally recommend it if you write code on Windows. I really like it as an IDE, it's very powerful, but it does come with a learning curve. The IntelliSense for C++ is apparently going to rock in VS2010 from what I hear, which will hopefully make working on our ~60kLOC C++ code base easier!
* For compilers: a recent GCC (like, 4.3 or 4.4 if possible,) or MSVC on Windows. MSVC sometimes lets non-standards compliant things slide in my experience and has some slightly annoying warnings, but they're both very good.
* I recommend you *do* learn a scripting language if you choose to use Linux. Even shell script would suffice (for an example, see: MapReduce as a Bash script!) It's useful so you can automate lots of shit you otherwise won't want to do again.
* IF you choose to write lots of C/C++ on Windows and/or Linux (but 'if' because you can probably spend your time better!,) despite what anybody tells you, the APIs have quirks and some apparent corner cases and are weird in some spots. There's also the problem sometimes of API fragmentation and you're not sure what's available where. Some of it just sucks.

For things about my linux system that I write code on at work:

I use Debian 5.0 (kernel 2.6.26 I think), with xmonad as my window manager. Soon I'll be getting a nice lenovo thinkpad x200 though, on which I'm planning on installing ArchLinux (so I have a recent enough kernel to have stable wireless drivers, Debian lags behind in that respect)

[thoughtpolice]

And since everybody has screenshots, I'll show one of my XMonad layout, although this isn't my work desktop; it's actually my PS3 running Ubuntu. I just made XMonad start in my ~/.xsession and made GDM run my init script on login rather than the default one which starts GNOME. I also installed a recent kernel on it since this picture to fix some PS3-specific linux issues in the kernel (I think now it's outdated though, it's running 2.6.31-rc2 or something, and 2.6.31 has already been released.)

http://www.nijoruj.org/~as/images/xmonad -ps3.jpg

[kiwi-kiwi]

I use Linux mainly for making art, but I also program on it every now and then.
I'd suggest using Qt Creator as an IDE if you like to use C or C++, it has some great graphics and a very smooth auto-complete + debugger that lets you see the assembler code

mmmm assembler