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that's right! i was about to post the same thing, thanks johnny.

At 10/29/09 03:37 PM, Luxury-Yacht wrote: Of course, there's a difference between wearing clothing mandated by a religious belief and wearing something promoting some sort of theistic values that is worn purely out of individual choice.

There should be no legal difference. If you violate the dress code, then you violate the dress code, and the boss doesn't have to care whether you do it to avoid the wrath of the Flying Spaghetti Monster or to resist the temptation of the dark side of the Force. Having a religious belief is a purely individual choice in the first place, or at least it should be treated as such.

At 10/29/09 03:48 PM, AapoJoki wrote: Having a religious belief is a purely individual choice in the first place, or at least it should be treated as such.

But sometimes certain behaviour is necessary to maintain face in ones culture, witht eh hijab being a good example. If they can't go to work with it, muslim women who have pride in wearing one won't go to work. And then they become dissasociated with society.

THere should be some leverage room, really. As I said, if I were to decide the dress code for a company, the guy in question here wouldn't have been fired (though he was an idiot for turing down a subsitute pin).

"The company claims that expressing such personal beliefs is simply not allowed."

What he wears at home and during his own time is fine, but at work he is representing the company and it is not unreasonable for them to enforce a dress code that prohibits such personal messages.

At 10/29/09 11:19 AM, Magik-Waffle wrote: This is so ridiculous. I hate our country sometimes...

And i hate dolts like you.

At 10/29/09 03:59 PM, JohnnyWang wrote: But sometimes certain behaviour is necessary to maintain face in ones culture, witht eh hijab being a good example. If they can't go to work with it, muslim women who have pride in wearing one won't go to work. And then they become dissasociated with society.

THere should be some leverage room, really. As I said, if I were to decide the dress code for a company, the guy in question here wouldn't have been fired (though he was an idiot for turing down a subsitute pin).

Your cultural background is not something you're forced to stick with. If your family, especially the men, pressure or bully you into wearing something you can't wear at work, then it's a problem between you and them, and you have every right to tell them go fuck themselves. It's certainly not the employer's problem. No matter where you come from, you can always change (or dilute) your religion and move from one culture to another.

I'm not suggesting that Muslim headscarves should be banned at workplaces, nor am I going as far as Geert Wilders who thinks that Muslim women should have to pay a special tax for the permission to wear a headscarf. I just think it should be left for the employer to decide. At the moment, I'm not too worried that Muslim women will be rejected from work because of their headscarves. Most companies want to have a "multicultural" image and are happy to hire these women. All I'm saying is that there should be no legal mandate for such policy.

At 10/29/09 04:30 PM, AapoJoki wrote: Your cultural background is not something you're forced to stick with.

I'lll have to go technical, so bear with me for a moment.

The cultural values insitlled in one from birth to formative years (and onwards) are called "enculturation". This includes language, habits, values, heroes and rituals.

When someone is taken from their usual context, and put into a new one (say, the emigrate to another country), they may have culture shock. In order to assimilate into the new culture, they will have to unlearn ("deculturation") parts of their old enculutration, and learn new values ("Acculturation").

But this is never an easy process, and it's harder the bigger the difference between the cultures. And as said, ones enculturation more or less defines who you are. Unlearning that is unlearning your own definition. A soft landing should be arranged when possible.

This is not a religious issue. He was not fired for his beliefs. He knowingly violated the dress code, and management took notice and took the appropriate action. Even though I hate dress codes, I have to say that he deserved it. If you work for a company, you run the risk of getting fired if you don't want to follow their rules.

At 10/29/09 02:33 PM, ultima09 wrote:

At 10/28/09 05:31 PM, LivinInTheSunlight wrote:
Instant troll alarm activated.

Abandon this thread. It's obvious this guy is trolling.

Did you bother to read the news story? Jackass >.>

Did you bother to read my two - three other posts in this thread before making a stupid comment?

Braindead retard >.>

At 10/29/09 04:49 PM, JohnnyWang wrote: When someone is taken from their usual context, and put into a new one (say, the emigrate to another country), they may have culture shock. In order to assimilate into the new culture, they will have to unlearn ("deculturation") parts of their old enculutration, and learn new values ("Acculturation").

But this is never an easy process, and it's harder the bigger the difference between the cultures. And as said, ones enculturation more or less defines who you are. Unlearning that is unlearning your own definition. A soft landing should be arranged when possible.

That sounds plausible, but I see a potential for danger with this. If you encourage people to maintain and cherish certain cultural traits and habits, you also run the risk that you're discouraging them from integrating and learning the skills they need in the new society. Instead of being curious and seeking knowledge of the new culture, they'll seek refuge in their own state-subsidized minority culture, which can result in enclaves, ghettos and cultures within a culture, instead of a big melting pot of cultures. Besides the support, you also need an incentive to learn the rules of the new society.

Free market provides all the wiggle room and soft landing there's needed. If McDonald's refuses to hire a woman because of a hijab, then that's not only a stain in their image, but also a rather pointless move which doesn't help their business at all.

Well..if they asked him to take it off then he should have just done so..it's a fucking button not your lifeline...if he was just being a dick and not doing as he's told then he didn't care about his job. But if they fired him without asking first he has every right to complain.

At 10/28/09 05:31 PM, LivinInTheSunlight wrote:
Instant troll alarm activated.

Abandon this thread. It's obvious this guy is trolling.

LET ME IN, MY SON IS IN THERE!

FOR CHRISTS' SAKE!!! It says 'One nation UNDER GOD in the pledge of fucking allegiance! Why can't you wear a button saying that!? We have a fucking SONG called; 'God bless America' goddamnit! This country is SO fucked....

I'M FUCKING SICK OF THIS.
DAMN YOUR MISSLEADING TITLES.
Why for once can it not ACTUALLY be a thread about a button that somehow simulates the power of God.

I imagine it being big a red; make me one.

At 10/29/09 08:18 PM, xXShortEmoKidXx wrote: FOR CHRISTS' SAKE!!! It says 'One nation UNDER GOD in the pledge of fucking allegiance! Why can't you wear a button saying that!? We have a fucking SONG called; 'God bless America' goddamnit! This country is SO fucked....

The reason you can't is because everyone would be able to go to like this:

At 10/29/09 08:33 PM, Snake-Arsenic wrote: The reason you can't is because everyone would be able to go to like this:

And that means?.......

At 10/29/09 08:18 PM, xXShortEmoKidXx wrote: This country is SO fucked....

The only way your country would be fucked is if it were populated by more people as illiterate as you.

Read the damn thread through before posting your unthinking knee-jerk reaction..

At 10/29/09 08:38 PM, Victory wrote:

At 10/29/09 08:18 PM, xXShortEmoKidXx wrote: This country is SO fucked....

The only way your country would be fucked is if it were populated by more people as illiterate as you.

Read the damn thread through before posting your unthinking knee-jerk reaction..

That's not illiteracy, jackass....that's just being lazy. It's what our founding fathers based the Constitution on when they wrote it in an all-nighter. Ben Franklin WAS a heavy drinker, from what my teacher says.

He wasn't fired because his pin said god, technically. He was fired because his button wasn't allowed since it wasn't approved by the company. If you start bringing religious items into a workplace you're going to make people uncomfortable. If you don't realize this you are so ignorant that death is the only thing you honestly deserve.

Jebus, I wonder is this guy realized the sky was blue.

At 10/29/09 08:37 PM, xXShortEmoKidXx wrote:

At 10/29/09 08:33 PM, Snake-Arsenic wrote: The reason you can't is because everyone would be able to go to like this:

And that means?.......

The US national symbol is the bald eagle, if you can violate company policy with patriotic clothes you might as well do it in style. Hey, shouldn't you have learnt this a long time ago?

I'd say that the company is right in this situation; although, on both sides, mostly button guy's, this is just a stupid argument. Sure, you can say that button guy has freedom of speech, but the truth is, it's a private business, which means that they don't have to operate under the freedom of speech provisions. I mean, I go to a Catholic school, and I have to wear a uniform. If I didn't wear this uniform, then my school would have the right to use disciplinary action, such as kick me out. Also, you can say that he had been wearing the button for over a year, but I work during the summer as a lifeguard, and sometimes, when I think a rule is stupid (such as no splashing [I mean, who doesn't splash at a pool]), I won't call someone out on it immediately. But still, when and if I do, I expect them to listen to me. The same goes for button guy, there's a dress code where he works, and although it took a year for his employers to point out the fact that he was breaking it, he still has an obligation to follow the dress code. Also, they asked him to remove the button which he refused to do. Lastly, if you were to argue that since Muslim women wear a hijab, then why can't this guy wear a button, it would be complete BS. Women wearing a hijab is part of the Muslim faith. There is nothing in the Jewish or Christian faith that says that you have to wear a button.

At 10/28/09 05:17 PM, Black-Pirate wrote:

At 10/28/09 05:16 PM, ChiefSol wrote: He got what he deserved.

This is now a flamewar. 3.. 2.. I'll get the popcorn.

canai have some? this is getting interesting.....*munch munch*....DAMNIT YOU BURNT IT

It really annoys me how people can bash religious people and say they're mostly bad people and claim that they themselves are not bigots. I mean seriously, what's more bigoted than saying that people that have a right guaranteed by the Constitution are bad people? It's beyond bigotry.

Why, that crazy Christian deserved it! Believing in fairy tales and this so-called "God!" Can't he see that evolution is the REAL logical answer? I mean, duh! It's only very possible for us to have evolved from a tiny, tiny cell!

In fact, I think all big corporations (who are so evil, by the way) should do this to their employees. What a crazy man. Can't he see that his so-called "freedom of speech" was totally harming the people around him? I mean, can you imagine a person wearing that kind of badge next to you? How offensive!

Madness, I say!

At 10/29/09 03:48 PM, AapoJoki wrote: There should be no legal difference. If you violate the dress code, then you violate the dress code, and the boss doesn't have to care whether you do it to avoid the wrath of the Flying Spaghetti Monster or to resist the temptation of the dark side of the Force. Having a religious belief is a purely individual choice in the first place, or at least it should be treated as such.

Best post in the whole thread.
Of course that guy can wear whatever the fuck he wants, but not if he signed a contract with the company he used to work for and agreed to comply with their dress code.If they don't accept religious stuff at work, then you can't complain if they fire you if you do..it's like now in some schools (well, mostly univerisities) burkas and crosses aren't allowed because they show your religious beliefs, which supposedly should be a personal matter.

What a douche-bag. He was told to take it off and didn't. He was breaking company policy and was fired for it, he deserved to lose his job...i hope he kills himself.