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The BNP are real extremeists, but through their views they bring up some real problems. Also Nick Griffen is a "bum cheese" but does he really deserve half the crap people give him? Trust me i'm not for BNP but I don't know what party to really go for.

(Please no racist or extreem cursing to anyone)

All extremist parties base their extreme views on actual problems, but they bring things so far that they end up creating more problems themselves by diminishing freedoms and human rights with more government intervention.

So yes, they deserve just as much shit as they get, and more. It's appalling that people actually vote for them.

Its obvious to pretty much anyone that they are racist bigots. However, from what I have seen/read/, it seems that a lot of thier "supporters" (not the same as voters...) support them for one reason - the "stop immigration" policy. Whilst this in itself might not be racist, how the BNP rationalise this clearly is, and how they would take it further with the "non indigenous people out" idea. Most people whp seem to latch on to the "stop immigration" idea seem to live in deprived urban areas where immigaration is mre prevalent - possibly as an excuse or justification for why thier lives suck if they are on benefits with 3thousand kids to feed. If some of the main parties were brave enough to have a clear policy on immigration that people could identify with, the BNP would be in the spotlight a whole lot less. For the record whenever I vote (which is always as it is my right that some unfortunate sods do not have), I tick the "abstain" box, in orderto officially register my apathy.

At 10/25/09 02:49 PM, newreaper wrote: The BNP are real extremeists, but through their views they bring up some real problems.

Such as?

Also Nick Griffen is a "bum cheese" but does he really deserve half the crap people give him?

He deserves much more.

I wonder if the BNP differs a lot from similar right wing parties as Party for Freedom (Wilders, Netherlands) or Flemish Importance (Belgium)

It's a bit overstated to claim they are racist, which is quite a dirty claim because using political correctness you can wipe away any negative fact about foreigners. But I find their approach to aggressive and causing to much uproar to be honest.

At 10/25/09 05:20 PM, Jon-86 wrote:

At 10/25/09 02:49 PM, newreaper wrote: The BNP are real extremeists, but through their views they bring up some real problems.

Such as?

well immigration and thats about it ereally

They are also the only political party which views Islam as the real threat that it is to Western freedoms.

in my experience, mot muslims arent the suicide bombing type and are decent honest hard working people that do the best to fit in with society, and are vehemently against the extremists that carry out terror acts. mind you, I have not come into contact with the shady "asylum seeking type" that are regarded by many as a drain on this countries resources - granted, the propensity to be an illegal immigrant is not exclusive to any faith, and its probably our own fault for being a soft touch on immigration. yes, we need stronger immigration laws (like australia maybe), but no, I personally do not see islam as a threat. last 50 years or so we have had the commies as the bad guys (cold war), then the war on drugs, then the war on terror. seems we in the west always need an enemy to justify defense budgets.

remember it was the tony blair labour government that took the UK to war against 2 muslim countries. imagine how the BNP would have reacted to the july 7th bombings... and imagine how much worse they would have been if this country was run by people like mr griffin and his bigot buddies.

The same cannot be said of Islam as a whole, which has has itself singled out and catered to its every whim by the pseudo-left cowards which run this country.

to a certain extent I agree. i find it anger inducing when any minority (not just muslims) immigrate to this country to get the benefits, without becoming part of our culture (if thats the right word). for example, arranged marriges (illegal?) whilst freely using the NHS. the way that some minorities form closed groups and isolate themselves from the rest of the uk doesnt help, as then people become suspicious, and this breeds distrust and eventually hate, causing further closing off of minorites, and so on...

but yea, i geuss my main point is that if someone were to move to live in the UK they should conform to our norms and standards whilst enjoying the benefits that ths country brings, as opposed to just taking the advantages and igoring our way of life. If i were to go to saudi arabia and drink alcohol, i would end up in biiiig trouble. not the same here though is it?

At 10/26/09 07:50 AM, Victory wrote:

At 10/26/09 05:29 AM, newreaper wrote:

At 10/25/09 05:20 PM, Jon-86 wrote:

At 10/25/09 02:49 PM, newreaper wrote: The BNP are real extremeists, but through their views they bring up some real problems.

Such as?

well immigration and thats about it ereally

They are also the only political party which views Islam as the real threat that it is to Western freedoms.

Ok is that immigration or illegal immigration and what is it about their views on that do you think is right?

Islam has been in this country for years, tell me what exactly is it about Islam that threatens "western freedoms" or what freedom is it that they claim a religion is threatening in this country? If you are talking about the people the BNP wrongly believe represent Islam then name a few examples. If its the belief Islam would go against the woman rights movement etc then that's just rubbish to be honest.

Again point out what exactly it is and I will be happy to cut through their bullshit for you if you need me to :)

They have a habit of attacking other peoples' credibility when trying to get a point across. They seem remarkably good at digging up dirt about their opposition.

At 10/26/09 08:57 AM, MwnciHead wrote:
but yea, i geuss my main point is that if someone were to move to live in the UK they should conform to our norms and standards whilst enjoying the benefits that ths country brings, as opposed to just taking the advantages and igoring our way of life.

The big issue in the debate is when a person is sufficiently integrated. You can't expect a black person to go to a plastic surgeon to make him look white MJ style. Should it be necessary to allow these people only to speak flawless English amongst eachother and to have them support the English football team during the EK and WK events?

Or now the dire question, should there be any room for free Islamic religion in the UK? In what way is a person still allowed to practise his own culture in the foreign nation.
(also, a highly doubt western people should fear repercussions whilst visiting a bar in the arabian nations...)

At 10/26/09 05:52 PM, RubberTrucky wrote:

At 10/26/09 08:57 AM, MwnciHead wrote:

The big issue in the debate is when a person is sufficiently integrated. You can't expect a black person to go to a plastic surgeon to make him look white MJ style.

of course, but equally if a nigerian immigrant wishes to live in the uk then why shouldnt they learn english instead of costing taxpayers cash on interpreters/translations?

Should it be necessary to allow these people only to speak flawless English amongst each other and to have them support the English football team during the EK and WK events?

No, but surely you agree some effort at integration is a must. A good freind of mine is a pakistani muslim. his parents insits he uses english even at home as it is considered a must if he is to fit into the uk better. however he vehemently supports the pakistan cricket team in international matches, as is his right, without it clashing with his identity as a british muslim intigrated into our culture.

Or now the dire question, should there be any room for free Islamic religion in the UK? In what way is a person still allowed to practise his own culture in the foreign nation.

i suppose its matter of opinion how much an indiviual should be changed by the culture they choose to live in, and how much they wish to change the culture that surrounds them...

(also, a highly doubt western people should fear repercussions whilst visiting a bar in the arabian nations...)

seriously, in saudi arabia you cant touch a drop legally...

At 10/25/09 05:51 PM, RubberTrucky wrote: I wonder if the BNP differs a lot from similar right wing parties as Party for Freedom (Wilders, Netherlands) or Flemish Importance (Belgium)

It's a bit overstated to claim they are racist, which is quite a dirty claim because using political correctness you can wipe away any negative fact about foreigners. But I find their approach to aggressive and causing to much uproar to be honest.

Overstated? Their party is actually based on racial ideals. They are quite similar to the KKK in that respect, wanting to deport those not 'indigenous' to the UK, i.e., all those who are non white born and bred English/Welsh/Irish/Scottish etc.

As another example, they only recently had to change their policy with regards to admission into their party, finally accepting non whites into their ranks, (although why any would actually join in beyond me).

Make no mistake, they are extremely racist, and they do deserve all that they get and more.

At 10/26/09 06:29 PM, Victory wrote: In every Islamic society around the world, all that exists is oppression.

Ever been to Turkey? didnt spot much opression out there, other than to Camels. Quite a sweeping statement you have come up with... I would modify it by stating : "In extremist Islamic societies, there is a large degree of opression", like there is in any extremist country, be it North Korea, Cuba, China, Iran, bored of listing them...

At 10/27/09 05:41 AM, MwnciHead wrote: Ever been to Turkey? didnt spot much opression out there, other than to Camels. Quite a sweeping statement you have come up with... I would modify it by stating : "In extremist Islamic societies, there is a large degree of opression", like there is in any extremist country, be it North Korea, Cuba, China, Iran, bored of listing them...

I think you missed the point of his message. He was trying to say that "they" are evil and are trying to destroy the world because of "their" beliefs, etc. etc..

It's a classic belief. Islam is just a convenient way to fill "they" right now, as the Muslim world is, in general, among the most unstable. Back in the early Middle Ages, when the Islamic world was far more stable, creative, productive, and overall tolerant than the anarchic, Feudal Europe that only spawned landlords. That is, until the Pope decided that instead of fighting amongst each other (that is, fellow Catholics), let's take the fight to the barbaric Muslims!

I'm sure at this time the Muslims began saying that "they" (Christians) are evil and are trying to destroy the world, etc. etc..

Agreed. The "west" always needs an enemy. Always has, and probably always will.

At 10/27/09 06:08 AM, MwnciHead wrote: Agreed. The "west" always needs an enemy. Always has, and probably always will.

Everyone does. Putting nation against nation or religion against religion is a beautiful way to control people.

Sorry about the incoherence of my post, it's about 3 AM here.

At 10/27/09 05:41 AM, MwnciHead wrote:

At 10/26/09 06:29 PM, Victory wrote: In every Islamic society around the world, all that exists is oppression.

Ever been to Turkey? didnt spot much opression out there, other than to Camels. Quite a sweeping statement you have come up with... I would modify it by stating : "In extremist Islamic societies, there is a large degree of opression", like there is in any extremist country, be it North Korea, Cuba, China, Iran, bored of listing them...

Well well well. And has it ever came to your mind that the AKP-party, a "moderate islamic" one as they call themselves, are working hard right at the moment to islamisize the life in Turkey even further?
And - stating that "Turkey is a tolerant muslim country" clearly shows that you've got NO idea about Turkey. You know, the young turks were the people that invented the genocide! (ever heard of what happened to the Armenian people there? Ohh so tolerant!)
Secondly, Turkey is 99,9% muslim. Any christian community living ther faces heavy opression and threats by your tolerant turkish muslims.
Oh and - I'm sorry to crush your dreams but Islams has han extremistic attidude against non-muslims. Ok, please - I'd love to be proven wrong. Do it.

It's a classic belief. Islam is just a convenient way to fill "they" right now, as the Muslim world is, in general, among the most unstable. Back in the early Middle Ages, when the Islamic world was far more stable, creative, productive, and overall tolerant than the anarchic, Feudal Europe that only spawned landlords. That is, until the Pope decided that instead of fighting amongst each other (that is, fellow Catholics), let's take the fight to the barbaric Muslims!

Aww, how cute of you to chew up all the nice things you learn in school about the peaceful, gentle muslims.
The period of islamic expansion doesn't say anything to you does it? You don't know that the first crusade was a reaction to the radical islamic expansion in the area, I suppose?
And the cultural superiority of islam in the middle ages was merely the cultural benefits of the many high cultures they subdued (persian, roman, etc.) - and this advantage has faded away long, long ago. They didn't have an enlightenment, so Islam still is an intolerant, oppressive dogma.

You know, I once seached the net if I just could find ONE country with a muslimic majority where muslims and non-muslims lived together peacefully.
And found one: Mali. In e v e r y s i n g l e o t h e r muslimic country, oppression and violence towards minorities are the rule - even in "secular" muslim countries like Turkey.

Oh, and you know what really pisses me of? The existance of Shariah courts in Britain - there are now more than 60 of them. Hooray for seccession from the european culture and archaic judicature!
I guess the BNP gets that much support because it's not soaked in dhimmitude and cowardness towards the "religion of peace", plus it mentions things that really seem to concern many british.

Still, as far as I have read, the BNP IS rassistic, really. Rassistic bigots, that hijack the refusal of the british government to deal with the issues that concern many british people. I don't care which race anyone is from, if he's nice and educated it's cool, if he's an asshole than he's an asshole, no matter what color his skin is. The racial agenda of the BNP is disgusting - but unfortunately they are the only one that address the problem of integration. As long as the government ignores that and keeps kissing the feets of islam, the BNP will gain support, I can guarantee you that.

Just to clarify one thing: I've got to know kind-hearted muslims in my life so far, which were really ashamed of what the extremists are doing. This is not about muslims - it's about Islam. If people ignore the hatespeech in the Koran, then it's fine - it still doesn't change the potential dangers for freedom in a society origination from that book.

You know, the young turks were the people that invented the genocide! (ever heard of what happened to the Armenian people there? Ohh so tolerant!)

yea i had, and ike all genocides its a bad thing - but thats kind of like blaming todays germany for hitler really. or the inhabtants of the UK and USA of today for starting the slave trade... modern day turkey really isnt a reflection on the ottoman empire.

Any christian community living ther faces heavy opression and threats by your tolerant turkish muslims.

really? wasnt aware of that. all i noticed was polite, happy and enthusiastic people ready and willing to interact and accept others, seeing tourism as a good source of cash. i doubt the same welcome would be extended to me in iran. is it a possiblity that the minority christians are persecuted by an inteolerant minority, in the same way that muslims in the uk are persecuted by an intolerant minoroty of racist bigots? lets be fair, in almost any country, minorites have a hard time as they are an easy target... look how israel behaves to minorities in its "territories" (using that term loosely), despite being the victim of more than one attempt to wipe them out.

At 10/27/09 06:38 AM, Austrian-Mats wrote: You know, I once seached the net if I just could find ONE country with a muslimic majority where muslims and non-muslims lived together peacefully.
And found one: Mali. In e v e r y s i n g l e o t h e r muslimic country, oppression and violence towards minorities are the rule - even in "secular" muslim countries like Turkey.

Of course there exists oppression of the minority in almost any country. Ever heard of Ku Klux Klan? However, saying that it's the rule is quite ignorant when talking about countries such as for example Malaysia. While there sure are some islamic laws there, the government is far more secular than for example Poland, and amongst the populace, today there seem to be few problems in most part of malaysia. I've been there, both in urban and rural areas, and there seemed to be far less bigotry and racism there than you'll find in both Europe and America. One muslim family we lived with were going to celebrate christmas with their christian neighbours.
Of course there exists bigotry there to, but to say that it's "the rule" more than it is in the southern states of the US is quite ignorant.

I agree that islam today is far more radical than christianity today (could have something to do with christians not caring about half the bible anymore), but keep it on a rational level and don't generalize where you don't have to.
And if you're going to refer to your own 'studies' or whatever you want to call it, at least get the facts somewhat right.

At 10/27/09 06:38 AM, Austrian-Mats wrote: And - stating that "Turkey is a tolerant muslim country" clearly shows that you've got NO idea about Turkey. You know, the young turks were the people that invented the genocide! (ever heard of what happened to the Armenian people there? Ohh so tolerant!)

It's a bit silly to say that any one group 'invented' genocide.

Secondly, Turkey is 99,9% muslim. Any christian community living ther faces heavy opression and threats by your tolerant turkish muslims.

So, it's a bad thing if they're intolerant of Christian beliefs, but A-OK if British people are intolerant of Muslim beliefs?

Oh and - I'm sorry to crush your dreams but Islams has han extremistic attidude against non-muslims. Ok, please - I'd love to be proven wrong. Do it.

Okay:
And do not dispute with the followers of the Book [Christians and Jews] except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit.

That's from the Qu'ran.

They didn't have an enlightenment, so Islam still is an intolerant, oppressive dogma.

You can't define any one belief as 'intolerant' or 'oppressive'. It's all down to interpretation.

I'll admit that the Qu'ran has its fair share of sketchy stuff. But so does every Holy Book.

Oh, and you know what really pisses me of? The existance of Shariah courts in Britain - there are now more than 60 of them. Hooray for seccession from the european culture and archaic judicature!

Yeah, how dare they set up their own courts that need only be used if both parties involved agree to it.

And has it ever came to your mind that the AKP-party, a "moderate islamic" one as they call themselves, are working hard right at the moment to islamisize the life in Turkey even further?

not suprising, seeing as turkey is aiming at becoming a major player in the EU, and its people worry about cultural assimilation causing a loss of distinctive identity - the turks want to be turkish, not a generic eurostate.. atleast, so says the turkish guy that works in the kebab shop down the road... go figure.

At 10/27/09 06:38 AM, Austrian-Mats wrote:
And - stating that "Turkey is a tolerant muslim country" clearly shows that you've got NO idea about Turkey. You know, the young turks were the people that invented the genocide! (ever heard of what happened to the Armenian people there? Ohh so tolerant!)
Secondly, Turkey is 99,9% muslim. Any christian community living ther faces heavy opression and threats by your tolerant turkish muslims.
Oh and - I'm sorry to crush your dreams but Islams has han extremistic attidude against non-muslims. Ok, please - I'd love to be proven wrong. Do it.

Just to clarify one thing: I've got to know kind-hearted muslims in my life so far, which were really ashamed of what the extremists are doing. This is not about muslims - it's about Islam. If people ignore the hatespeech in the Koran, then it's fine - it still doesn't change the potential dangers for freedom in a society origination from that book.

Firstly, it was the Ottomans who perpatrated genocide during WW1, not the 'Turks'. Such nationalism didn't manifest itself until after the war.

Try going to Indonesia, Brunei or Malaysia. Those are all perfectly functioning, tolerant predominantly Islamic societies.

As for your second point, I think it's important to acknowledge that Islam is an Abrahamic religion. Parts of the Old Testament are just as violent and horrific as parts of the Qu'ran. Indeed even in the New Testament in the book of Revelations, it speaks of Christianity as smashing other faiths into oblivion. Islam is no more inherently violent than Judaism or Christianity.

At 10/27/09 10:16 AM, DizzeeRascal wrote:

Firstly, it was the Ottomans who perpatrated genocide during WW1, not the 'Turks'. Such nationalism didn't manifest itself until after the war.

Whatever. On second thought, this genocide doesn't quite fit into the topic anyways.
I just wouldn't justify it calling Turkey a "tolerant" country.

Try going to Indonesia, Brunei or Malaysia. Those are all perfectly functioning, tolerant predominantly Islamic societies.

I'm sorry, but the german wikipedia states that in Indonesia, since 1999 there have been more than 10,000 people killed in "racial unrest" between christians and muslims. It doesn't tell what's the reason however, but I highly doubt it that a christian minority in a major muslimic country would dare to be aggressive towards Islam.
Concerning Brunei - bravo, really. I'm happy to see there actually ARE muslimic countries that have freedom of religion fixed in their constitution. It's a pity it's just so small and has only 300,000 people or so. Now we got... two or three countries where muslims officially give minorities equal rights. And what about the rest?

... Indeed even in the New Testament in the book of Revelations, it speaks of Christianity as smashing other faiths into oblivion. Islam is no more inherently violent than Judaism or Christianity.

Well... that's really an old argument. I know that there are violent parts in the bible too - but, how many christian clerics actually command their followers to slaughter the non-believers? Even if they existed, they would be shunned by the rest of the church. Enlightenment, anyone?
However, if ANY islamic cleric publicly dares so speak out against islamic dogmas (which are of course cited from the Qur'an), they have no less to fear for than their lives. Why is it that critics like Ayaan Hirsi Ali have to live in hideouts and constantly recieve death threats? Oh, right - I'm sure all these fanatics "misread" the Qu'ran. I surely know that there are peaceful and good suras in the book, but unless there is a huge reform in islamic society, the violent content won't be ignored.
Speaking of that - please, show me a muslim demonstration in the west against muslim violence. I'd really like to see that for once.

... or the inhabtants of the UK and USA of today for starting the slave trade...

Errr... actually, the Arabs started the slave trade, and have always been player #1 in this "business".

really? wasnt aware of that. all i noticed was polite, happy and enthusiastic people ready and willing to interact and accept others, seeing tourism as a good source of cash. i doubt the same welcome would be extended to me in iran. is it a possiblity that the minority christians are persecuted by an inteolerant minority, in the same way that muslims in the uk are persecuted by an intolerant minoroty of racist bigots? lets be fair, in almost any country, minorites have a hard time as they are an easy target... look how israel behaves to minorities in its "territories" (using that term loosely), despite being the victim of more than one attempt to wipe them out.

Actually, in Iran what I've heard so far, people are really friendly and open-minded too - in private.
And, concerning the friendlyness towards tourists - well, I wouldn't count on that if you were actually living there and trying to practice a different faith. That's a whole different kettle of fish.
And - come on, let Israel out of this. I'm tired of this already. Why don't you contact the "Human Rights *cough* Council" so they'll condemn it once again ?
God, and comparing the UK and Turkey - it's not that Turkey was plastered with monumental churches, or the christian minority there was trying to shove their values down the turkish thoats and keeps screaming "RACIST RACIST" whenever someone criticizes them for their behavior...! I never heard of a "special chistian swim day" in turkish public bathes because christian women feel alienated by muslim stares or whatever.
Oh right, that would be an impudence...! My bad.

Of course there exists oppression of the minority in almost any country. Ever heard of Ku Klux Klan? However, saying that it's the rule is quite ignorant when talking about countries such as for example Malaysia. While there sure are some islamic laws there, the government is far more secular than for example Poland, and amongst the populace, today there seem to be few problems in most part of malaysia. I've been there, both in urban and rural areas, and there seemed to be far less bigotry and racism there than you'll find in both Europe and America. One muslim family we lived with were going to celebrate christmas with their christian neighbours.

So what? I didn't say that all muslims are minority-slaying extremist, did I? Did you read what I wrote about muslims i knew and so on?

Of course there exists bigotry there to, but to say that it's "the rule" more than it is in the southern states of the US is quite ignorant.

....
Ok, so you compare the southern US with countries like, let's say... Saudi Arabia.
Man, you are beyond repair. That's cultural relativism to the extreme. No comment on that.

I agree that islam today is far more radical than christianity today (could have something to do with christians not caring about half the bible anymore), but keep it on a rational level and don't generalize where you don't have to.
And if you're going to refer to your own 'studies' or whatever you want to call it, at least get the facts somewhat right.

Whatever. I answered that argument already a few times. Did you even get my point?

You shouldn't believe that you have the right of free thinking, it's a threat to our democracy.

Oho, how philosophic.

It's a bit silly to say that any one group 'invented' genocide.

As I said before, the genocide doesn't belong in that theme anyways.

So, it's a bad thing if they're intolerant of Christian beliefs, but A-OK if British people are intolerant of Muslim beliefs?

So you call the countless mosques, the burquas on the streets, the countless extra-treatments muslim minorities have demanded - and recieved - in western europe as "intolerant"?

Okay:
And do not dispute with the followers of the Book [Christians and Jews] except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit.
That's from the Qu'ran.

Oh, I just wish the extremists would follow more that sura - honestly. But up to today they seem to follow more the suras of that kind:
"O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends..."
"[8:12] Recall that your Lord inspired the angels: "I am with you; so support those who believed. I will throw terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved. You may strike them above the necks, and you may strike even every finger."

You can't define any one belief as 'intolerant' or 'oppressive'. It's all down to interpretation.

Exactly, I fully agree with you. The thing is there is still an intolerance against reform in the whole islamic world against different thoughts or - god forbid - reforms. =O
As I stated above, clerics who support that (and they exist) don't have a secure life any more.

I'll admit that the Qu'ran has its fair share of sketchy stuff. But so does every Holy Book.

Yeah, too bad the extremists keep focusing on the violent parts, huh? Maybe that's the case in any religion. But still - in western culture one can criticize the bible without getting death threats from the bible belt.
And, I may stress that again, where are the muslim demonstrations against violence following a sucide attack?

Yeah, how dare they set up their own courts that need only be used if both parties involved agree to it.

So you support their racist and misoygynistic judicature? That's great - how about we just dismiss enlightenment itself and have a whole islamic state? That sure would benefit "community cohesion"! Yay!
...
Seriously, are you nuts? I hope it's just naivety that you write something like that - it's not clear to you that women are going to be forced into these courts right? "...if both parties are agreeing"- jeez. How naive are you? Ever had a look at the Sharia?

MwnciHead
not suprising, seeing as turkey is aiming at becoming a major player in the EU, and its people worry about cultural assimilation causing a loss of distinctive identity - the turks want to be turkish, not a generic eurostate.. atleast, so says the turkish guy that works in the kebab shop down the road... go figure.

So... it's okay for you that they (or their government) actually want to join a union with western european values, founded by western european countries in western europe and benefit from its economical advantages - but hell no they're going to adapt themselves! Either the other way round! May I show you a quote of the current turkish prime minister?
Democracy is just a train we ride until we've reached our goals. The mosques are our caserns, the minatetts our bayonets, the domes are our helmets and the believers are our army.
Riiight, that's the base we need for trustful cooperation. Funny thing that he was actually tried in Turkey for that statement - many people in Turkey oppose further islamisation of their country. Which is, I believe, pretty important for one to do so.

At 10/27/09 04:45 PM, Austrian-Mats wrote:

Of course there exists bigotry there to, but to say that it's "the rule" more than it is in the southern states of the US is quite ignorant.

....
Ok, so you compare the southern US with countries like, let's say... Saudi Arabia.
Man, you are beyond repair. That's cultural relativism to the extreme. No comment on that.

No, I'm comparing Malaysia to southern US. Saudi Arabia sure is a shithole.

Did you even get my point?

Yes, that only one contry had functioning, tolerant islam. Which you were proven to be wrong about. Also, you'd have to compare countries with about equal quality of living. It's easy to show that people with poor quality of life are generally more prone to violence and the like, so comparing contries with vastly different quality of life means you'll get stats that have a major factor other than islam.

You shouldn't believe that you have the right of free thinking, it's a threat to our democracy.

Oho, how philosophic.

But quite true, seeing the laws that are being put in place all over the world right now, to defend us from terrorist and net pirates.

At 10/27/09 04:01 PM, Austrian-Mats wrote:
Whatever. On second thought, this genocide doesn't quite fit into the topic anyways.
I just wouldn't justify it calling Turkey a "tolerant" country.

No it doesn't. One isolated event which occured over 80 years ago is not grounds to claim that a country is intolerant nowadays. By that logic, Germany is an intolerant country because of the Holocaust.

At 10/27/09 04:01 PM, Austrian-Mats wrote:
I'm sorry, but the german wikipedia states that in Indonesia, since 1999 there have been more than 10,000 people killed in "racial unrest" between christians and muslims. It doesn't tell what's the reason however, but I highly doubt it that a christian minority in a major muslimic country would dare to be aggressive towards Islam.

Please provide links when making quite outlandish statements. Those conflicts were not racially based, (for the record, Chrianity and Islam are not races), they were separatist movements within the country. As for Islamic terrorism, the only examples of that nature were bombings perpetrated by foreign Al Qaeda.

At 10/27/09 04:01 PM, Austrian-Mats wrote:
Concerning Brunei - bravo, really. I'm happy to see there actually ARE muslimic countries that have freedom of religion fixed in their constitution. It's a pity it's just so small and has only 300,000 people or so. Now we got... two or three countries where muslims officially give minorities equal rights. And what about the rest?

What about them? Since its beginning Islam has been distinct from both Christianity and Judaism because it has been intrinsically linked with politics. They need no separation of the church and state, because they believe their religion is sufficient to fill that gap. It is not for Westerners to say or impose their ideals upon those nations that don't have freedoms we would deem inalienable.

At 10/27/09 04:01 PM, Austrian-Mats wrote:
Well... that's really an old argument. I know that there are violent parts in the bible too - but, how many christian clerics actually command their followers to slaughter the non-believers? Even if they existed, they would be shunned by the rest of the church. Enlightenment, anyone?
However, if ANY islamic cleric publicly dares so speak out against islamic dogmas (which are of course cited from the Qur'an), they have no less to fear for than their lives. Why is it that critics like Ayaan Hirsi Ali have to live in hideouts and constantly recieve death threats? Oh, right - I'm sure all these fanatics "misread" the Qu'ran. I surely know that there are peaceful and good suras in the book, but unless there is a huge reform in islamic society, the violent content won't be ignored.
Speaking of that - please, show me a muslim demonstration in the west against muslim violence. I'd really like to see that for once.

You hold a profoundly incorrect view of the majority of the Muslim community and its religious structure. The violent clerics you speak of are shunned by the wider community and only a tiny minority actually attend their churches. It's the scaremongering slant on reporting of certain isolated events by tabloids whose main aim seems to be to give readers their daily dose of spluttering outrage over their coffee in the morning. Do not succumb to this propaganda. Radical right wing churches in the US are no better, killing doctors who perform abortions etc. Islam doesn't hold the monopoly on extremism.

So... it's okay for you that they (or their government) actually want to join a union with western european values, founded by western european countries in western europe and benefit from its economical advantages - but hell no they're going to adapt themselves!

never said that it was ok, just that i am not suprised by it. its the same logic behind why the SNP gets lots of votes in scotland, and PC gets lots in wales... the point you make abut how if turkey wants to be an EU member it should be less islamic is valid, even if i dont agree with it - i see no reason why a moderate islamic state shouldnt be part of europe, in the same way that any other distinct cultural grouping could be - its not as if we are one group of states united by a common goal/heritage ike the USA anyway.

I never heard of a "special chistian swim day" in turkish public bathes because christian women feel alienated by muslim stares

a point i totally, 100% agree on - a number of posts above i made a point about how learning a language should be expected instead of special treatment in the form of interpreters. no one group should have special treatement as they are different, nd minorites should be expected to at least conform in minor ways to the values of thier host culture - if my GF would be expected to cover herself if visiting a mosque in the middle east, then its not really out of order to expect poeple living here to accept our values.

please, show me a muslim demonstration in the west against muslim violence. I'd really like to see that for once.

Dec 4th 2005... muslims against extremism/terror...

biggest peve over islamic extremism for me - mistranslations or shady interpretations of arabic, a language in which many words have no direct translation into other languages. for example, in one of the most widley availiable english translations of the koran it states the term "Children of Allah", (Sura 7:31) which could easily be read as "Children of Adam" due to characters that are tricky for anyone other than a fluent and experienced arabic reader to make out. another quite well known and often quoted one is "idolatry is worse than carnage" (Sura 2:217), which has been mistranslated from the intended "oppression is worse than killing" (supposedly stating how evil opression is - i wonder how many muslims are aware of that, or how many would agree with it, especially those living in more opressive societies). wikipedia link of man to blame fo translations - irony - he is an iraqi immigrant to the UK

At 10/28/09 08:09 AM, MwnciHead wrote: another quite well known and often quoted one is "idolatry is worse than carnage" (Sura 2:217), which has been mistranslated from the intended "oppression is worse than killing"

It literally says "fitna is worse (greater offence) than killing" (wa alfitnatu 'akbaru min alqatli). No one knows what fitna means, although usually it is assumed to mean discord. The way it is translated in this sentence depends on the interpretation of the translator and (usually) his doctrinal bias. "Idolatry" is a form of interpretation and "oppression" is a form of interpretation.

Actually, there's something to say for both of them because in the preceding sentence both disbelief (kufr) and banishing the Muslims from the Kaaba ('ikhrâgu 'ahlihi minhu) are mentioned as bigger sins than fighting during the sacred months. Which interpretation you choose is personal preference.

At 10/25/09 02:49 PM, newreaper wrote: The BNP are real extremeists, but through their views they bring up some real problems.

What problems have they brought up ? which ones?

Also Nick Griffen is a "bum cheese" but does he really deserve half the crap people give him?

Half??? , he deservs 110% of the crap he gts

Trust me i'm not for BNP but I don't know what party to really go for.

(Please no racist or extreem cursing to anyone)