Acidic Oceans!

[zephiran]

They are becoming less basic!

More complex, heh?

Everyone knows the oceans absorb CO2, but how many people ponder the effects of this process?

A quick forum search didn´t reveal any threads dedicated to debating this issue, so I thought I´d go ahead and get one started.

The ocean is rather basic, with a pH value at around 8. However, when water absorbs CO2, this process increases the hydrogen ion concentration and actually makes the water somewhat more acidic
- or less basic, if you prefer that term.

An increased acidity level may prove harmful to calcifying organisms, and may have a number of adverse effects to other sea-living animals.

It should be noted however, that this process and its effects are not yet fully understood, and that there is much room for speculation.

Personally I´m not entirely convinced that this process will have THAT much of a harmful impact on ocean life, but I am rather concerned by it nonetheless.

Other peoples thoughts?

Biased source, methinks.
Perhaps better source?
Ohoho, it even has its own Wikipedia article! Neat!

[morefngdbs]

I live near the ocean...Where i live is actually surrounded by salt water.
& Salt Water is very corrosive. not only to objects in the water...the moisture in the air carries salt & it eats our motor vehicles & effects our power lines ,especially transformers, blow quite frequently around here.

So for those of us here in Atlantic Canada... nothing new here, but if as you say, getting more Carbon in it will cause it to be more acidic...it is also getting saltier which makes it more corrosive as well.

[HorseloverFrost]

Carbonic acid is very mild. We'd have much, much bigger problems (like suffocation) long before enough CO2 was produced to make enough carbonic acid to hurt the sea life.

[ohbombuh]

The great political arguer is back to debate everything, even if it doesn't really connect to who's getting elected or anything like that!

They are becoming less basic!

Why don't the oceans ever just sit there and do nothing? They're always making some kind of weather disaster or becoming generally less fun to be around.

More complex, heh?

That's politics for you.

Everyone knows the oceans absorb CO2, but how many people ponder the effects of this process?

That depends on how you define "everyone." And here we could go off into if babies and those in the womb should count here...but we need to stay almost on topic for my arguing to work!

A quick forum search didn´t reveal any threads dedicated to debating this issue, so I thought I´d go ahead and get one started.

You actually checked to make sure you were following the rules? Wow, first one this week.

CO2 is going into oceans and is bad for the stuff in there.

Sorry, I like to summarize what I can't argue or completely ignore.

It should be noted however, that this process and its effects are not yet fully understood, and that there is much room for speculation.
Personally I´m not entirely convinced that this process will have THAT much of a harmful impact on ocean life, but I am rather concerned by it nonetheless.

Well, good job on being open-minded. Remember people, it MIGHT not be a problem!

Other peoples thoughts?

We're all going to die eventually, no matter what the ocean does! Besides, it's not the first time we recovered from Earth's water thoroughly screwing us over (examples: some people survived the Titanic sinking, the first Native Americans crossed the gap between North America and modern Russia on a giant ice sheet that melted and left them stuck over here, and hurricanes just come along and tear everything up.)

Biased source, methinks.

Bah, they couldn't prove it on my Jr. High science project, so you can't prove it here!

Perhaps better source?

Ye---no. I'm too lazy to look it up.

[SolInvictus]

At 10/25/09 11:08 AM, zephiran wrote: They are becoming less basic!

More complex, heh?

chemistry jokes? here?!?

[Korriken]

more co2 in the oceans means the marine plants and phytoplankton will have more co2 to work with which will allow them to grow a little faster, which means more food for larger marine creatures.

Co2 is your friend, do not deny your friendship to the master compound. Al Gore lies to you!

[awkward-silence]

At 10/25/09 11:45 PM, Korriken wrote: more co2 in the oceans means the marine plants and phytoplankton will have more co2 to work with which will allow them to grow a little faster, which means more food for larger marine creatures.

Co2 is your friend, do not deny your friendship to the master compound. Al Gore lies to you!

CO2 (ph 5.5) may be good for the ocean, to a certain point. Certainly the organisms feed(for a lack of a better term) on it. But that doesn't mean that the increased amount is beneficial. As humans we require potassium to live, that does not meant that we would survive even a single meal that was mostly potassium (more likely our heads would burst into flames, an interesting sight).

I don't know what level of CO2 is beneficial and which is harmful. Certainly the phytoplankton would appreciate the increased food, but would be unable to survive a massive shift in the PH balance. The ocean's PH level has already dropped .075 (to 8.1) and further changes could threaten the safety of a variety of Marine animals, which typically require a PH level between 8.2 and 8.4. This is part of the reason we have been experiencing increased amounts of Coral dying (a massive food source.)

[MwnciHead]

The ocean's PH level has already dropped .075 (to 8.1)

as a % change, thats 0.09%. now the physicist in me is going to assume that at the moment thats just about a small enough change to be random or part of background noise. I will worry if this change sustains itself over a long time or gets bigger.

mnd you, this is another bit of evidence that shows just how complex the earths climate is, and how arrogant we are to assume that we are soleley responsible for climate change. the climate changes - its what it does once in a while, regardless of what effect we are or arent having on it (which would be pretty impossible to tell if you ask me)...

please always question what politicans tell you about climate change as they only have votes on thier mind and pleasing people to get elected.

[Elfer]

At 10/26/09 08:50 AM, MwnciHead wrote:

The ocean's PH level has already dropped .075 (to 8.1)

as a % change, thats 0.09%. now the physicist in me is going to assume that at the moment thats just about a small enough change to be random or part of background noise. I will worry if this change sustains itself over a long time or gets bigger.

First of all, the way you did the calculation, it's 0.9%, not 0.09%

Second, did the physicist in you remember that pH is on a log scale? The change in actual molarity is roughly 16%, not 0.9%. I'd say that's worth a look in a system that's so huge.

[MwnciHead]

First of all, the way you did the calculation, it's 0.9%, not 0.09%

doh, missed a zero. i have fail.

Second, did the physicist in you remember that pH is on a log scale?

wow didnt know that - thanks. looks like i learned somthing new today. not a chemist at all.

[Elfer]

At 10/26/09 09:26 AM, MwnciHead wrote: wow didnt know that - thanks. looks like i learned somthing new today. not a chemist at all.

That makes sense. I'm majoring in chemical engineering, and in the last couple of years I've started having problems discerning between common knowledge and stuff that I shouldn't expect other people to know.

I find now that the best approach is to just talk to people as though they know what I'm saying until they stop me. This works much better than my previous method of talking to people as though they don't know what I'm saying until they get offended.

[MwnciHead]

I know that feeling. im a space physicist - often find myself assuming people know things i do for no other reason than the fact that i know (e.g "what do you mean you only know of 3 dimensions?"). of course, my knowledge base is usess in day to day life, but massivley detailed in a very focussed area... unfortunatley chemistry was somthing i stopped worrying about in school, other than some of the hyper specific stuff for my area.

[zephiran]

At 10/25/09 07:50 PM, HorseloverFrost wrote: Carbonic acid is very mild. We'd have much, much bigger problems (like suffocation) long before enough CO2 was produced to make enough carbonic acid to hurt the sea life.

Do note that these ocean dwellers have been living in a rather basic environment (well above a pH of 8, at around 8.179) for a LONG time, and that they might be so adapted to this specific pH level that they might not be able to cope with a change too dramatic - such as a drop in "just" one pH.

Even though the pH levels will not be nearly "acidic", a decrease could still cause problems.

To creatures relying on an easily dissolved aragonite (a calcium carbonate polymorph) shell, this could REALLY prove to be a stick up the butt.

And yes, even at a basic pH level, calcium carbonates can be dissolved. Unless there exists saturating levels of carbonate ions, aragonite is subject to dissolution.

At 10/25/09 11:03 PM, SolInvictus wrote:

At 10/25/09 11:08 AM, zephiran wrote: They are becoming less basic!

More complex, heh?

Chemistry jokes? Here?!?

Here. There was no "Chemistry" forum...

At 10/25/09 08:26 PM, ohbombuh wrote:

Ye---no. I'm too lazy to look it up.

Understandable. It is rather complex, after all.