Forum Topic: 440hz Vs 432hz

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Carf

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Posted at: 10/23/09 05:50 AM

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A few days ago I read an article about music in 432hz instead of the 440hz standard.
What is the big difference between these ranges? Is it true that your music sounds *more warm*?
It is such a weird story which I never heard of before. It seems that the 440Hz standard has been brought to life during WW2 and the standard before that used to be 432Hz. Even music instruments these days are made for the 440 standard.
I am confused ;) and would love to get some feedback from people who know more about this stuff.


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Rucklo

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Posted at: 10/23/09 06:25 AM

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psychoacoustics... it's all in the eye of the beholder I MEAN EAR LOL!

psychoacoustoics is a really interesting subject though (and it's just that - subjective most often), i haven't come across this before. got any links for a google-lazy hobo?


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ZStriefel

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Posted at: 10/23/09 06:34 AM

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The Redbook audio standard is a sample rate of 44,100 Hz.

Anyways the sample rate is simply how many samples of a signal you get. So increasing the sample rate would yield in better clarity, you would notice improved decay on cymbals etc. I don't think "warm" is the way to describe what you would hear. Warm indicates more low end (in a nice way) , everything softer. But it also kinda depends on what you're listening to.

hope this helps.

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jarrydn

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Posted at: 10/23/09 06:44 AM

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At 10/23/09 06:34 AM, ZStriefel wrote: The Redbook audio standard is a sample rate of 44,100 Hz.

He's talking about the frequency of the concert A note. Not sampling rate ;)


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Carf

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Posted at: 10/23/09 07:39 AM

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For the Google-Hobo's

http://dutchpatriot.wordpress.com/2008/0 4/27/back-to-432-hz/

Strangely enough most site's about the article are in dutch, like we have got our own standards ;p.
Anyways, I warn you all, it is kinda *floating* info, lots of new age stuff how this subject is handled.
It seems that it is better for mind and spirit? And they mostly talk about Classical music.
I wonder what happens if you change a Death Metal track from 440Hz to 432Hz, regarding these articles the music should become *more wonderfull* wow, heavy stuff ;) Death Metal with Heavenly sounds ;p.


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Calamaistr

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Posted at: 10/23/09 09:03 AM

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At 10/23/09 07:39 AM, Carf wrote: For the Google-Hobo's

http://dutchpatriot.wordpress.com/2008/0 4/27/back-to-432-hz/

Strangely enough most site's about the article are in dutch, like we have got our own standards ;p.
Anyways, I warn you all, it is kinda *floating* info, lots of new age stuff how this subject is handled.
It seems that it is better for mind and spirit? And they mostly talk about Classical music.
I wonder what happens if you change a Death Metal track from 440Hz to 432Hz, regarding these articles the music should become *more wonderfull* wow, heavy stuff ;) Death Metal with Heavenly sounds ;p.

Im dutch, anyway i brought this up in a topic yea. And (if youre dutch) on grenswetenschap there was an article on this aswell, ill look it up hold on.
http://www.grenswetenschap.nl/permalink.
asp?grens=1921
there it is.
Dont mind the part where it mentions that some people believe it had anything to do with the nazi's changing it, this is simply not true.

But what is true is that its a natural tone, in dutch called: natuurlijke grondtoon.
And ears much softer and when you increase the volume you wont actually experience a real difference, ive taken many of my own music trough audacity setting it to 432 and its true, when i increase the volume of my boxes the music stays just as soft.

There even are events held where all music is in 432.

Thumbs up for this topic, id say experiment with it.

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Carf

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Posted at: 10/23/09 10:02 AM

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oi Fellow Dutchman ;)

Thanks for your reply, I will take a deep dive into this subject :).
It made lot of things way more clear for me.
That is why we have forums like this ;) To learn.


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sorohanro

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Posted at: 10/23/09 10:21 AM

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Here, from someone who played in orchestras:
The standard of "concert A" being less than 440 HZ is still up for Baroque music played on original instruments. It's because of the technical characteristics of the instruments (lutes and violins using gut strings, harpsichord using wooden picks that can be damaged if the strings are too tensioned...etc...).

During historical periods when instrumental music rose in prominence (relative to the voice), there was a continuous tendency for pitch levels to rise. This "pitch inflation" seemed largely a product of instrumentalists' competing with each other, each attempting to produce a brighter, more "brilliant", sound than that of their rivals. (In string instruments, this is not all acoustic illusion: when tuned up, they actually sound objectively brighter because the higher string tension results in larger amplitudes for the harmonics.) MORE ABOUT IN WIKIPEDIA

The phenomenon still persist even now. I remember when I used to work in Targu-Mures State Philharmonic we got all wind and brass instruments from Yamaha (pitched at 440 HZ) and all strings players kept tunning at 442 to sound brighter... was a nightmare... they didn't want to listen us to tune normally, so we had to force instruments (pushing mouthpieces over the limit, cutting off parts of instruments, shortening the "S" of bassoons... damaging good new instruments) just because of stubbornness of wooden heads.

Vienna Symphony also tune at 442 HZ.


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Bjra

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Posted at: 10/23/09 11:14 AM

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heres my question. how do I tune a track down 8 hz or whatever. can I do this in midi data? can I simply pitch the entire final song down?


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Carf

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Posted at: 10/23/09 11:31 AM

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Basicly (haven't tried it yet) you should be able to alter your finalized track with Audicity, gonna play around with it this weekend. Very intresting, wonder if I am going to hear a change in my own sounds.

Everyone thanks for the feedback :) this is a very intresting thing for all musicians.


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Bad-Man-Incorporated

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Posted at: 10/23/09 12:19 PM

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Also, some form of conspiracy theory around this.

Conspiracy Theory.

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Bjra

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Posted at: 10/23/09 12:25 PM

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At 10/23/09 12:19 PM, Bad-Man-Incorporated wrote: Also, some form of conspiracy theory around this.

Conspiracy Theory.

WHERES MY TINFOIL HAT


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Bad-Man-Incorporated

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Posted at: 10/23/09 12:29 PM

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At 10/23/09 12:25 PM, Bjra wrote:
At 10/23/09 12:19 PM, Bad-Man-Incorporated wrote: Also, some form of conspiracy theory around this.

Conspiracy Theory.
WHERES MY TINFOIL HAT

DON'T LIE. You are still wearing it. :P

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Bjra

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Posted at: 10/23/09 12:29 PM

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Heres two things I found about 432. Now I'm interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sonpvUxG L8

http://www.myspace.com/bobbylavignesproj ect432

does the above band, who tunes in A432 sound any different than if they were tuned in A440?


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Bjra

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Posted at: 10/23/09 12:36 PM

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DOuble post becuase my brain is exploding reading this, and its relavent to the thread :O

"
ATTENTION IMPORTANT 432HZ DISCOVERY
Category: Music
ATTENTION! IMPORTANT 432 DISCOVERY!!

1 hertz..(Hz) is a 'C' at A-432

It is the lowest possible note/tone/frequency/cycle (..measured in cycles per second)
'C' is the root of ALL SCALES in Music, and natural harmonics in nature and science

The distance that this wave "C" will travel before it recycles is 186282.397 miles

The speed.. of light.. is 186282.397 miles per second...... (yes your reading it right.......he he)

This is very strong evidence for the existence of a unified theory that
functions from a single resonance (singularity) and then to its harmonic counterparts.

this is very exciting .....Its time for all musicians to start taking this
seriously and tuning their instruments to A-432.

-Music is Magic
-Bobby "

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea ction=blog.view&friendId=155371549&blogI d=435211576


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Bad-Man-Incorporated

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Posted at: 10/23/09 12:42 PM

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Just be careful we don't find the frequency that causes us to shit ourselves to death.

It is very cool stuff, though. When we find the frequency to which the supposed "God particle" vibrates with, it will be like discovering the power behind the "force".

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ZStriefel

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Posted at: 10/23/09 01:56 PM

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At 10/23/09 06:44 AM, jarrydn wrote:
At 10/23/09 06:34 AM, ZStriefel wrote: The Redbook audio standard is a sample rate of 44,100 Hz.
He's talking about the frequency of the concert A note. Not sampling rate ;)

lol duh... sorry

check out the Newgrounds Audio Chat!

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Blackhole12

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Posted at: 10/23/09 02:10 PM

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Out of curiosity I wanted to try this out, and I computed that to tune one's song to 432 Hz, all you have to do is pitch the entire song at -8 cents.

I've also been experimenting with this, and I am stunned to report that there IS a barely audible difference in the song. I believe this warrants further investigation.

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Carf

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Posted at: 10/23/09 02:25 PM

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Ask the same question and received a reply from a friend who is really *into* sound orgins and stuff, I will trans it from dutch to english and hopefully it is going to be helpful.


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Calamaistr

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Posted at: 10/23/09 05:40 PM

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Since (as i already told you guys) i have been doing this for some time now, i was initially wondering if newgrounds re-set the frequency to 440hz when uploaded because if not im sure i already have atleast one track in 432 up. i have no clue wich cause it doesnt say, anyway, i completely forgot to do this with all my fl made stuff, so from now on i will again. :)

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amaterasu

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Posted at: 10/23/09 05:47 PM

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At 10/23/09 05:40 PM, Calamaistr wrote: Since (as i already told you guys) i have been doing this for some time now, i was initially wondering if newgrounds re-set the frequency to 440hz when uploaded

No, definitely not.

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jarrydn

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Posted at: 10/23/09 09:13 PM

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At 10/23/09 02:10 PM, Blackhole12 wrote: Out of curiosity I wanted to try this out, and I computed that to tune one's song to 432 Hz, all you have to do is pitch the entire song at -8 cents.

That wouldn't quite work, I don't think.

If you pitched it down 8 cents, that would take A from 440hz to 432hz, and the octave above it from 880hz to 872hz.

But if you take concert A as 432 hz and double it to get an octave higher, that makes it 862 hz. A discrepancy of 10hz.

To hear the effects properly, you would actually need to change the concert A reference in your DAW from 440 to 432, assuming this is even possible.


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Calamaistr

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Posted at: 10/23/09 09:17 PM

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At 10/23/09 09:13 PM, jarrydn wrote:
To hear the effects properly, you would actually need to change the concert A reference in your DAW from 440 to 432, assuming this is even possible.

When the note A is tuned to 432hz it can then be taken to lower and higher octaves giving the frequencies 27hz, 54, 108, 216, 864, 1728 etc. The note D also becomes 576hz which at other octaves is 9hz, 18, 36, 72, 144, 288, 1152 etc. The note E becomes 324hz (81, 162, 648, 1296 etc).

Just go into audacity, go to the option arrow when youve loaded a track, frequency tab; click other and enter 43200, thats it.

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Calamaistr

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Posted at: 10/24/09 07:36 AM

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bump for important.

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jarrydn

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Posted at: 10/24/09 08:08 AM

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Disregard what I said. I was attempting to frankenstein cents and hz.

Also some of my preschool maths was wrong.

All in all, fail.


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Bjra

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Posted at: 10/24/09 09:04 AM

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At 10/24/09 08:08 AM, jarrydn wrote: Disregard what I said. I was attempting to frankenstein cents and hz.

Also some of my preschool maths was wrong.

All in all, fail.

so a simple 8 cent shift down would switch the song into this new and supposedly amazing harmonic wonder?


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xKore

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Posted at: 10/24/09 09:05 AM

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At 10/23/09 09:17 PM, Calamaistr wrote: Just go into audacity, go to the option arrow when youve loaded a track, frequency tab; click other and enter 43200, thats it.

43200 =/= 432hz

I think what you've done is change the sample rate, and what you are hearing is placebo.

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jarrydn

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Posted at: 10/24/09 10:17 AM

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At 10/24/09 09:04 AM, Bjra wrote: so a simple 8 cent shift down would switch the song into this new and supposedly amazing harmonic wonder?

I don't believe so. I don't think cents and hertz are interchangeable, are they?


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sorohanro

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Posted at: 10/24/09 12:37 PM

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All those "spiritual" explanations and all the calculations of speed of light vs tuning a bit lower and tons of numers...all those are a bunch of crap.
Sorry to say that and dissapoint some people.
The explanation is simple and I already gave all the information based on actual experience (7 years playing in State Philharmonic, 2 years playing in National Opera).

String instruments sound brighter if tuned a bit higher, in an orchestra the concert meister (first violin player) will always try to stick out a bit to be able to coordinate his compariment (bows, fingering, phrasing) so he will tune a bit higher and he is the one giving the "a" to the rest of orcherstra... so they take a higher one and then the concert meister will tune a bit upper... and so on...

So, in time that's why we went from 432 to 438, then to 440 and now to 442.
If you want to listen to recordings with a lower "a", listen to Baroque music played on original instruments.


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Calamaistr

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Posted at: 10/24/09 12:44 PM

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At 10/24/09 09:05 AM, xKore wrote:
At 10/23/09 09:17 PM, Calamaistr wrote: Just go into audacity, go to the option arrow when youve loaded a track, frequency tab; click other and enter 43200, thats it.
43200 =/= 432hz

I think what you've done is change the sample rate, and what you are hearing is placebo.

No mate its not placebo, its quite noticable and you can test it with volume, it really doesnt seem to matter how loud your music is on 432hz.

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