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actually, i would disagree with the whole music vs. culture thing.
especially now, which the two music styles are starting to separate more dramatically.
I think that the two are very similar, but I think that the basic thing that breaks them apart is that hip-hop has more of a focus on the beats and the instrumental/electronic music rather that the lyrics, and rap focuses more on the lyrics and less on the beats and instrumental/electronic music bit.
I wouldn't really classify hip hop as a culture though...
There are more differences in the two, and I know what they are, but they are hard to explain.
they're just different.

At 10/20/09 10:39 PM, james44445 wrote: actually, i would disagree with the whole music vs. culture thing.
especially now, which the two music styles are starting to separate more dramatically.
I think that the two are very similar, but I think that the basic thing that breaks them apart is that hip-hop has more of a focus on the beats and the instrumental/electronic music rather that the lyrics, and rap focuses more on the lyrics and less on the beats and instrumental/electronic music bit.

To a point I'd say that's true, but also a bit flawed... The beats, even when not being rapped over, are music yes, but it's just music that belongs to that culture rather than defining Hip Hop as a genre.

I wouldn't really classify hip hop as a culture though...
There are more differences in the two, and I know what they are, but they are hard to explain.
they're just different.

I do believe that Hip Hop is its own culture though. What defines a culture? Hip Hop has its own vernacular, it has its own fashion trends, its own music, its own art, and something of its own political views. This sounds like a culture to me. I mean just watch documentaries like Scratch.

At 10/20/09 10:10 PM, XxRobJohnsonxX wrote:

At 10/20/09 10:06 PM, StarF68 wrote:

At 10/20/09 10:04 PM, XxRobJohnsonxX wrote: Someone vomiting on a microphone is not music.

Rap & HipHop > Deathmetal

Wow, because comparing rap and death metal is a completely accurate comparison.

Also your favorite food sucks because I like vegetable soup better. My logic is flawless.

I was attempting to state that the person(s) bashing rap & hip hop and claiming its garbage.... (but listen to metal) are hypocritical.
Apparently I failed at getting my point across, however.

Also, fuck vegetable soup.

My bad, I was in a hurry to leave and didn't notice which way the symbol was facing. Your point now makes sense, but I still find it to be silly because metal is a great genre, and death metal, while not my favorite sub-genre of metal, is still a valid genre of music if you know what bands to look for.

It's all a matter of opinion.

I think hip hop is the culture. Rap is the by-product of the culture. Rap music has changed a lot in it's 20 year lifespan, so there are many different sounds that can be heard from the many varied people who create it nowadays. As for the people arguin which style of music is better, there really is no winner. The whole argument is biased depending on what style each person likes. Yes, you can find repetitive rhyming in rap music that most people think are garbage. Most of soulja boy's music couldn't even be considered real hip hop music because it holds no intelligent thinking whatsoever. Likewise could be said about many other songs and artists from every genre, not just hard metal rockers who only growl and yell. But no matter how unintelligent or repetive the song is, you will still find some people who are fans of that music

There's no jump, jump in rap, thats what hip-hop is all about, the jump, jump.

Want to listen to some awesome Hip-Hop, try some Hilltop Hoods, enough said!

At 10/20/09 10:59 PM, BloodKing3 wrote: I think hip hop is the culture. Rap is the by-product of the culture. Rap music has changed a lot in it's 20 year lifespan, so there are many different sounds that can be heard from the many varied people who create it nowadays. As for the people arguin which style of music is better, there really is no winner. The whole argument is biased depending on what style each person likes. Yes, you can find repetitive rhyming in rap music that most people think are garbage. Most of soulja boy's music couldn't even be considered real hip hop music because it holds no intelligent thinking whatsoever. Likewise could be said about many other songs and artists from every genre, not just hard metal rockers who only growl and yell. But no matter how unintelligent or repetive the song is, you will still find some people who are fans of that music

Haha great first post, exactly the point I've been trying to make! Most mainstream rap sucks, period. It's repetitive, it's unintelligent, and it's just plain bad. Most people who judge rap as bad are only exposed to this music. You need to actually look and pay attention to the good artists to find the good stuff.

All genres have artists that suck, that's just the way it is.

At 10/20/09 08:44 PM, HighWayStar365 wrote: Hip hop is more towards the instrumental side, while rap is more towards the lyrical side.

That's my guess.

How about rap is a guy cussing fast, and hip hop is just as crappy, but slow!!

At 10/20/09 11:55 PM, 95688kage wrote: How about rap is a guy cussing fast, and hip hop is just as crappy, but slow!!

Definitely just "cussing fast."

The shit being played on radio stations gives rap a bad name.

Okay I haven't read a single comment on this thread, but I can teal it's probly a whole bunch of pussy hippies tight pant wearing homos that smoke weed and think theyr cool, saying that hiphop and rap both suck.

Suck a cock.

I hate those bitches

At 10/20/09 09:11 PM, Cericon wrote:

At 10/20/09 09:07 PM, StarF68 wrote:

At 10/20/09 09:05 PM, Cericon wrote:

At 10/20/09 08:57 PM, StarF68 wrote:

Difficult? It isn't difficult to hook up a synthesizer and begin spouting nonsense that rhymes.
Difficulty in creating the lyrics? Please. Anyone could do it. Grab yourself a rhyming dictionary and an ounce of creativity. Anything over an ounce means you're over qualified. To make Rock, you actually have to have several people who've learned how to play a specific instrument well.
I can't imagine ever finding quality people through rap.

Hey, dumbass, Since rapping is so easy, why dont you try doing it? Write a rap song, perform it, and put it up here in the audio portal. Since rap isn't difficult at all to make, your song will probably be great.

Your definition sucks....

Hip-Hop = Akon
Rap = Swollen Members

if you can't hear the difference... then why do you pretend to know that kind of music?

At 10/21/09 12:35 AM, HeavenDuff wrote: Your definition sucks....

Hip-Hop = Akon
Rap = Swollen Members

if you can't hear the difference... then why do you pretend to know that kind of music?

As far as I'm concerned it's just different styles of one genre of music: rap. There is an obvious difference and many different styles of rap, it's just that people classify them differently, and that's where the argument of the difference of 'rap and hip hop' begins.

At 10/20/09 09:11 PM, Cericon wrote:

At 10/20/09 09:07 PM, StarF68 wrote:

At 10/20/09 09:05 PM, Cericon wrote:

At 10/20/09 08:57 PM, StarF68 wrote: I can deal with the fact that rap isn't for everyone, but you should still respect the genre.

Respect what? If you could see it from our point of view, then you'd see, there isn't anything respectable about rap.

Respect the fact that it's difficult to do and that it's a great genre provided you give it a chance. Seeing as how I'm an amateur rapper myself and have been for the past three and a half years, and I know a ton of people in the community and have found so much great music and friends through it, I think it's pretty much a huge and very respectable genre.

Difficult? It isn't difficult to hook up a synthesizer and begin spouting nonsense that rhymes.
Difficulty in creating the lyrics? Please. Anyone could do it. Grab yourself a rhyming dictionary and an ounce of creativity. Anything over an ounce means you're over qualified. To make Rock, you actually have to have several people who've learned how to play a specific instrument well.
I can't imagine ever finding quality people through rap.

You do not seem to get that bad artists exist in any genre of music.

You think rock is awesome? What about those who only play the same four chords for all their careers? Bands like AC/DC that you see as a fucking awesome band...
Just listen to their most recent album and tell me that it doesn't sound exactly like anything they made before... In fact when I heard their new tracks on the radio... I thought they just made compilation album or something like that.

As you said. It's easy to make shit rhymes and shit beats. But it's not easy to make good beats and good rhymes. You got to understand that there is shit rap like 50 Cent and there is good rap. But I can't list you a lof of good rap artists... simply because it's not really my genre of music. I'm much more of a metalhead :P

I know Swollen Members are a good rap crew though :P

At least try to understand that this guy know much more about rap than you do. He knows a lot of things you don't know about rap.

Not to mention the fact that some rappers have bands with musicians... like Fort Minor.

So please... stop talking about stuff you don't know.

At 10/20/09 10:04 PM, XxRobJohnsonxX wrote: Someone vomiting on a microphone is not music.

That's called growls. And it's not vomiting. It's a very difficult technic you got to master to make your voice sound deep and hit lower tones. And very complicated structures in music may be hard to understand for someone as stupid as you. Death Metal is very complex and fast music with a ton of tempo modifications. A lot of different riffs and complex sound because many musicians are playing at the same time.

Rap & HipHop > Deathmetal

Rap & HipHop =/= Death Metal

At 10/20/09 10:27 PM, XxRobJohnsonxX wrote:

At 10/20/09 10:24 PM, Cericon wrote:

At 10/20/09 10:04 PM, XxRobJohnsonxX wrote: Someone vomiting on a microphone is not music.

Rap & HipHop > Deathmetal

So then how can you say that either of those genres are better than the other?

The phrase
"Fuck babies"
(Being growled out for about ten seconds)
in my opinion has 0 musical value

Lyrics of the song Forsaken by the Technical Death Metal band Benighted

Forsake
Every night happens the same relentless terrifying scenario
Alex ten years old has to confront hell to finally find the sleep

Closed eyelids do not prevent him to see
The hands on the ears and he still listens
Afraid that his heart stopped in the hammering of a funeral march
Forsaken, the hour has come
He's forsaken by the ones he trusted the most in

Between invisible creatures as darkness is falling around
Freezing kisses from his mother rejoining her bed in heaven

Closed eyelids do not prevent him to see
The hands on the ears and he still listens
Afraid that his heart stopped in the hammering of a funeral march
Scary noises under him

An uncertain place on the Earth and the ritual reject
Lead him to surrender himself in terror
Slave to the aggressive outside
In the lair of the ashamed child

As he stands close to the Styx
Ready to fall and swim
Convinced that he will never be able to cross it
Abysses inhale him from underground

Closed eyelids do not prevent him to see
The hands on the ears and he still listens
Afraid that his heart stopped in the hammering of a funeral march
Forsaken, the hour has come
He's forsaken by the ones he trusted the most in

----------------------------------

You fail as a human being... because you simply cannot stop judging things you don't know shit about... shame on you...

At 10/21/09 12:37 AM, StarF68 wrote:

At 10/21/09 12:35 AM, HeavenDuff wrote: Your definition sucks....

Hip-Hop = Akon
Rap = Swollen Members

if you can't hear the difference... then why do you pretend to know that kind of music?

As far as I'm concerned it's just different styles of one genre of music: rap. There is an obvious difference and many different styles of rap, it's just that people classify them differently, and that's where the argument of the difference of 'rap and hip hop' begins.

Your probably right.... sorry about that shit comment I posted...

At 10/20/09 08:50 PM, hdxmike wrote:

At 10/20/09 08:45 PM, HeavyMetalGuy wrote: Who cares. They both suck.

That's my opinion at least.

Mine too , also Rn B they all soundthe same and there is little originalty

Because country and pop keep it oh so fresh. If you believe this, you really haven't gotten into rap. There's a lot more diversity than what makes it on the radio. I think the whole hip-hop & rap community will agree.

At 10/20/09 08:39 PM, StarF68 wrote: I try not to get too complex, so this is how I see it:

Hip Hop is the culture, built on "The Four Elements:" Emcee, DJ, B-Boy, Graffiti. The culture itself includes the music, but also expands to other things such as its own lexicon, fashion trends, literature, political stance, etc.

Rap is simply music based on these elements.

I wrote a term paper on the positive messages within hip hop culture and you're basically on top of everything even with those extra aspects you put in at the end. But when it comes to people trying to find a difference between the two terms of hip hop and rap, they often assume that hip hop has better quality messages while rap has the messages that people often quote as being about money, drugs, and sex. I think that that analysis between the two terms isn't accurate though because in the end it's the same act of rapping. Even so, it's understandable why people perceive there to be a difference, but I think that artists should be judged on the messages in their songs and the quality of the lyrics, and that the label of hip hop artist or mainstream rapper shouldn't apply.

At 10/20/09 09:36 PM, StarF68 wrote:

At 10/20/09 09:29 PM, Cericon wrote: I don't think I'll be listening to any of your songs.

Rap sucks, there aren't any two ways about it.

*Facepalm*

Ignorance is a sickness. You sir, are part of the problem (With all of humanity).

Don't waste your time on Cericon. Me and him had a 'discussion' on rap in the comments of the linked newspost and after three posts back and forth, he had had enough. It's sad to see he's still bringing up the same points that can be shot down with minimal research and common knowledge.

At 10/21/09 01:49 AM, 36Holla wrote:

Don't waste your time on Cericon. Me and him had a 'discussion' on rap in the comments of the linked newspost and after three posts back and forth, he had had enough. It's sad to see he's still bringing up the same points that can be shot down with minimal research and common knowledge.

Wow... that kid is retarded....
You owned him go and he kept coming for more.

But I don't like your statement about Kanye West. I respect rap in general... but Kanye West really just prooved a billion times that he's stupid. He writes music about having big cars, money, chilling...
I mean... Kanye West is among those shit rappers who give a bad name to rap...
And also... in the past... he said that Beyonce should have won the price instead of Taylor Swift and also said way before this that he should have won another price instead of another white girl artist. He also said live on tv... "Bush doesn't care about black people."

Kanye West just sounds like the racist dude who claims everydoby else is racist
.... which is giving him the right to be racist... cause he's being a victim of racism...

Also... em... just to stay on subject... what's the difference between hip-hop and rap? :P

At 10/21/09 01:49 AM, 36Holla wrote:

Don't waste your time on Cericon. Me and him had a 'discussion' on rap in the comments of the linked newspost and after three posts back and forth, he had had enough. It's sad to see he's still bringing up the same points that can be shot down with minimal research and common knowledge.

lol
He's a highschooler with the inability to see the other side of any argument.
He and I also got into it, but I ended up blocking him, because its like arguing with a rock.

Also... in response to HeavenDuff.... replying in a thread and copy+pasting the same thing to me in a pm is really cool.

The lyrics in your song may have a meaning.... but it does not mean the song does not sound like a constipated guy muttering while he tries to take a dump. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.... because you disagree does not make me a "failed human being."

I am also very familiar with death metal, since I have a friend who rather enjoys the burps and grunts that are considered to be "music." To make a claim that I am not familiar with the music when you obviously don't know me is idiotic.

Alright here's the deal: Essentially all music takes talent one way or another, and all music is going to have fans and people that don't enjoy it.

Where does this leave us? All music should be respected, but all music should not be liked... If that makes sense.

I don't particularly like death metal, I like metal, but not death metal. That doesn't mean death metal sucks, and it doesn't mean it doesn't take talent. It does on physical and lyrical counts, but it's just not for me. This same concept can apply to other people for rap, but they should only say that if they know what they're talking about.

Anyway, all that nonsense aside, let's get back to the original topic. Some people have been saying that Rap and Hip Hop are both fundamentally genres of music, with differences. I disagree, as I said hip hop in my opinion is the culture, and rap is the music of that culture. This does not place them as different though. It just means that rap is one PART of hip hop, which encompasses that and many other facets.

At 10/21/09 02:14 AM, HeavenDuff wrote: But I don't like your statement about Kanye West. I respect rap in general... but Kanye West really just prooved a billion times that he's stupid. He writes music about having big cars, money, chilling...
I mean... Kanye West is among those shit rappers who give a bad name to rap...

I fully agree that Kanye does give a bad name to rap nowadays. His first album though was really good despite it having one or two songs that were about money and cars. The problem is that ever since he got his first taste of success, he became one of the biggest attention whores in the music industry so when he doesn't win an award he throws a fit, and when someone doesn't get the recognition that he believes they deserve, he will do something like he did at the VMAs. Also note that I made that comment before that incident. It was the final straw.

At 10/21/09 02:25 AM, StarF68 wrote: the way shit is.

You've pretty much summed it all up right there.

At 10/21/09 02:17 AM, XxRobJohnsonxX wrote:

At 10/21/09 01:49 AM, 36Holla wrote:

Don't waste your time on Cericon. Me and him had a 'discussion' on rap in the comments of the linked newspost and after three posts back and forth, he had had enough. It's sad to see he's still bringing up the same points that can be shot down with minimal research and common knowledge.

lol
He's a highschooler with the inability to see the other side of any argument.
He and I also got into it, but I ended up blocking him, because its like arguing with a rock.

Also... in response to HeavenDuff.... replying in a thread and copy+pasting the same thing to me in a pm is really cool.

The lyrics in your song may have a meaning.... but it does not mean the song does not sound like a constipated guy muttering while he tries to take a dump. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.... because you disagree does not make me a "failed human being."

The fact that you "do not get" the artistic meaning behind something doesn't mean that it's shit.
If you sound like that when you are constipated, men that's your fucking problem. It takes work to be able to growl properly. And also, the fact that your always only talking about the vocals just prooves that you like radio-shit music... cause that kind of crap is always based on vocals. So when you try to judge of something more artistic than the actual puke you listen to on the radio, you find yourself hitting a fucking huge wall. Because you have no kind of intelligence in analysing arts.

I am also very familiar with death metal, since I have a friend who rather enjoys the burps and grunts that are considered to be "music." To make a claim that I am not familiar with the music when you obviously don't know me is idiotic.

You are not familiar with death metal just because you heard two songs or background music while drinking with your friends. Believe it or not. To analyse death metal you have to listen to the same track at least 10 times. It's fucking impossible to analyse and understand every little thing in the track after only one play. Death metal is a very complexe genre of music. If you think that you have what it takes to judge of what is good or not. Than again, that's your problem. Your the one being retarded there.

No you are not familiar with death metal.
Cause even if I've been into metal music for more than 5 years now. It's only today that I can say I understand Death Metal music, cause it took me a while to really understand the meaning of that specific kind of music.

Also... what makes you think your friend's taste in death metal represents the whole death metal scene?

And if really you can't take vocals. Go check out the band Blotted Science.
It's only instrumental.

At 10/21/09 02:35 AM, 36Holla wrote:

At 10/21/09 02:14 AM, HeavenDuff wrote: But I don't like your statement about Kanye West. I respect rap in general... but Kanye West really just prooved a billion times that he's stupid. He writes music about having big cars, money, chilling...
I mean... Kanye West is among those shit rappers who give a bad name to rap...

I fully agree that Kanye does give a bad name to rap nowadays. His first album though was really good despite it having one or two songs that were about money and cars. The problem is that ever since he got his first taste of success, he became one of the biggest attention whores in the music industry so when he doesn't win an award he throws a fit, and when someone doesn't get the recognition that he believes they deserve, he will do something like he did at the VMAs. Also note that I made that comment before that incident. It was the final straw.

I can't judge of what he did at the beginning of his career, cause I don't know shit about the work he did back there. (And since I don't know shit about it, I won't judge it)

But what you said about becoming an attention whore is generally the case of the majority of artists. When they get popular they stop being creative to just follow trends and sell more records.

You say it sucks. Well I don't know if it's still rap, but I imagine that a normal group would be the ones who use instruments, know how to play them and compose music on them. Also I imagine the lyrics to have a meaning, because poetry which known is slowly dying, it's replaced with modern songs and stuff.

But still inbetween this shit you can find a gem, something that's good. And no, I don't disrespect genres, I like groups from different genres.

As for the group I imagine, there is one here in Russia and they are succesful. The best bit is that they started doing it not for fame, but for just writing lyrics with a meaning, for the people.

Also Daddy-L-Jackson, thanks for telling me about The Roots.Sounds good.

At 10/21/09 02:35 AM, XxRobJohnsonxX wrote:

At 10/21/09 02:25 AM, StarF68 wrote: the way shit is.

You've pretty much summed it all up right there.

Oh, btw... since you've blocked me for no other good reason than defending my passion.
Here's the message I wanted to send to you by PM.
I think it just fits in this discussion. Because it just shows why we always end up receiving post comments like "Rap sucks", "Death metal is only puking in a microphone", "Rap is only people with no kind of creativity", "Heavy Metal is only screaming and random bashing"...

----------------------------------------
---------------

Let's just keep it simple.

I've said you like shit music only because you were being close-minded. And how can you have good tastes in music if you are close-minded? Music is Art. Ever heard of what they call artistic intelligence?
That's what I'm talking about.

Saying that Death Metal is shit, is being close-minded.... or maybe you were just trolling around...

I don't think your tastes in music are automaticaly shit. But I've seen so many people, just like you... stating the same exact judgemental opinions.... showing no kind of tastes in music... listenning only to the radio crap. Maybe the fact that your acting like every close-minded person I've met is leading me to believe that you are just like them. Like all of them.

----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
---------

So by the way guys. It seems that you guys like Rap a lot.
What about you give me some suggestions of artists.
I like Swollen Members and Fort Minor and I would like to find some more music like that. Thanks mates :)

At 10/21/09 02:42 AM, HeavenDuff wrote:

:A bunch more troll garbage.

I OBVIOUSLY do not have as much "death metal experience points" since I honestly and truly believe the music is shit.

That is my belief and opinion. Telling someone that their opinion is wrong, because it conflicts with your own belief is ignorant.

I give everything a fair chance. If you cannot even understand the lyrics in a song, and you need to look them up.... and/or listen to a song 10 or more times as you say to "enjoy it" that is a little too far passed the fair chance window for me.

I'm not going to listen to a song ten or more times if I hate the music style right from the start.

But please bash my opinions and call them wrong some more.

Starf68 hit the nail on the head.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions... and you do not need to go around attacking ppl because their beliefs differ from your own.

At 10/21/09 03:02 AM, HeavenDuff wrote:

I don't think your tastes in music are automaticaly shit. But I've seen so many people, just like you... stating the same exact judgemental opinions.... showing no kind of tastes in music... listenning only to the radio crap. Maybe the fact that your acting like every close-minded person I've met is leading me to believe that you are just like them. Like all of them.

So being a biggot makes it all okay, right? You are judging before you know anything about me. And you are bashing my opinions.... and you have the nerve to call me a troll?

If anyone is a troll here its you, dude... sorry.

Ok I quit reading the topic halfway through the second page. Ok I used to be a "RAP SUX" person, but after actually listening to some stuff that isn't crap. (See Soulja Boy for crap), I've learned it's pretty good. I mean I still would prefer Queen/Iron Maiden/The Beatles over rap, but at least I know how hard it is for them to actually do what they do.

Oh by the way, if you actually think you could rap, record yourself rapping and upload it so we can hear how easy it is to rap.

The Roots > Publicized c-rap.

At 10/21/09 03:04 AM, XxRobJohnsonxX wrote:

I give everything a fair chance. If you cannot even understand the lyrics in a song, and you need to look them up.... and/or listen to a song 10 or more times as you say to "enjoy it" that is a little too far passed the fair chance window for me.

What makes you think that you have to understand the lyrics?
A lot of death metal vocalists use their voice as an instrument. So you do not need to understand the words to get the note, rythmic in the voice and feeling of the vocals. And why is it that it should be easy to learn about arts? When you first listen to death metal you won't understand the vocals. But as you listen to the genre. You will eventually learn to understand it. And then you will ear the words and understand why the vocals have been recorded this way and not as clean vocals.

But please bash my opinions and call them wrong some more.

The fact that you dislike death metal is not wrong. But the fact that you try to find good reasons to say it's shit is wrong. Cause every insult you write toward death metal is just another proof that you don't understand it.

You may dislike something but still understand why someone would like it. And that is what I try to do anytime I listen to some music that isn't appealling to me. I try to understand why fans of this music like it. In the end. I may still dislike it. But at least I'm not being judgemental

At 10/20/09 08:43 PM, Ptcfast wrote:

At 10/20/09 08:42 PM, Strength wrote: NEED A RIDE? I CAN RANGE YOU UP
MONEY? I CAN CHANGE YOU UP
YOU CAN RIDE YOUR OWN
NO LONGER BE THE PASSENGER
SWAG LOW? I CAN BUILD YOU UP
KNEES WEAK? I CAN STAND YOU UP
RED LIPS RED DRESS LICK 'EM LIKE A FIRE TRUCK

WORD

BLING

Man, here's the difference between rap and hip hop,
in rap, you ask, you wanna smoke up?
but when it comes to hip hop, it becomes a little different,
that's when you start to shout that you are godsent,
but the true fact is you are hellbent,
bent to break up the citadel and brotherhood of steel,
even though they're the only way you could get a good meal,
my life's kinda like fallout 3,
Cause of the mere fact I'm locked in my room, you see,
it's like my room is the vaults,
"Don't shout at me! It's not my fault!",
that's the bullshit we don't have to deal with,
especially cause you're the only one feeling it...