How to promote yourself?

[crimsonballs93]

For those of you who have a lot of listeners, how do you do it? I need the quickest and most efficient way possible, ASAP. Preferably those with 1,000+ listeners on last.fm.

Thank you.

[amaterasu]

At 10/11/09 12:34 PM, crimsonballs93 wrote: For those of you who have a lot of listeners, how do you do it? I need the quickest and most efficient way possible, ASAP. Preferably those with 1,000+ listeners on last.fm.

Thank you.

I think step 1 is to figure out the best vessels for getting your music to your target audiences.

[crimsonballs93]

At 10/11/09 12:37 PM, amaterasu wrote:
I think step 1 is to figure out the best vessels for getting your music to your target audiences.

vessels? As in blood vessels? Maybe the aorta?

What do you mean?

[loansindi]

This question has been asked before

If we're talking in general... You just need to produce music people like. Eventually you'll get more known by virtue of making a better product.

On NG specifically, then you need to become an active member of the community. Post in the forums. Review people. Put links to your music in your sig. Stuff like that.

[nathanallenpinard]

At 10/11/09 12:34 PM, crimsonballs93 wrote: For those of you who have a lot of listeners, how do you do it? I need the quickest and most efficient way possible, ASAP. Preferably those with 1,000+ listeners on last.fm.

Thank you.

There is no ASAP. It takes time and effort to build a fan base.

[crimsonballs93]

At 10/11/09 12:38 PM, loansindi wrote: If we're talking in general... You just need to produce music people like. Eventually you'll get more known by virtue of making a better product.

That's not completely true. If you take out the "just" from your second sentence, it might be true, but not as it stands. For if you simply create music and never upload it or share it to anyone else, no one else will hear it besides you, and this doesn't count as promoting it. Even if you upload it - i.e. create a page on last.fm - but never share it to anyone else, no one is likely to listen to it. The question is how to distribute this music after uploading it.

[SymbolCymbal]

1. your music is liked by the newgrounds community
2. you post alot on the forums giving yourself friends
3. you post your music in the appropriate way. (example - make music for contests, flash author requests and the proper advertisement threads.)
4. BE AN ACTIVE MEMBER!
(example) - get involved in collaborations, contests And pretty much anything you can get involved in.
Once you have some friends and fans be sure to update them when you have a new track.

other than that there really is nothing else you can do

[loansindi]

At 10/11/09 12:41 PM, crimsonballs93 wrote: The question is how to distribute this music after uploading it.

Okay. Fine. Create a facebook fan page and spam invites to your friends. Burn CDs with a web address on the label and leave them places (Coffee shops, colleges, wherever). Put up fliers.

You'll have, probably, a dismal return rate, but it takes a -lot- of effort to get anywhere. Use a service like CDBaby and get your album into local record shops.

[SymbolCymbal]

OH YEAH!
onre more thing

review review review

review other musicians music... sometimes they will hit you back with a review

[Mystery-Moon-Pie-Aud]

At 10/11/09 12:38 PM, crimsonballs93 wrote:

At 10/11/09 12:37 PM, amaterasu wrote:
I think step 1 is to figure out the best vessels for getting your music to your target audiences.

vessels? As in blood vessels? Maybe the aorta?

What do you mean?

I freaking hope you weren't serious. Vessels as in best way to transport your music to the people. Like blook transporting to different organs through vessels, the vessels are those transportation methods.

And yes, if you do get well known on NG, it will spread.

[amaterasu]

At 10/11/09 12:38 PM, crimsonballs93 wrote:

At 10/11/09 12:37 PM, amaterasu wrote:
I think step 1 is to figure out the best vessels for getting your music to your target audiences.

vessels? As in blood vessels? Maybe the aorta?

What do you mean?

On the internet, sites and forums focused on the kind of music you produce. IRL, venues that tend to play the kind of music you produce. There your chances of netting fans are the best. Its a little obvious, but the point is clever marketing helps successfully get more exposure for your music.

[Bjra]

At 10/11/09 12:41 PM, SymbolCymbal wrote: 1. your music is liked by the newgrounds community
2. you post alot on the forums giving yourself friends
3. you post your music in the appropriate way. (example - make music for contests, flash author requests and the proper advertisement threads.)
4. BE AN ACTIVE MEMBER!
(example) - get involved in collaborations, contests And pretty much anything you can get involved in.

nope, this is a piss poor way to build up a fan base. I think we can ALL agree that musicians have completely different standards and taste in music than non-musicians. but musicians make up a considerably smaller portion of the population than "listeners". in the audio community on newgrounds though, musicians make up a very massive percentage of the fan base.

the audio forums ARENT THAT POPULAR for music listeners. In fact threads about the appreciation of music are locked 100% of the time. so anyone who listens to music is discouraged from participating in the audio forums. this chops out a large number of people who might find your music by bein g incredibly active in the newgrounds audio community

If you are trying to get popular with music by being an active participant of the newgrounds audio community, you are beating your head against a wall with very little avail.

Once you have some friends and fans be sure to update them when you have a new track.

Absolutely, once you get fans, keeping them updated is critical. newgrounds does not have an easy way to do this currently, so you can either get a mailing list, rss feed, or message everyone who has faved you. many listeners truly appreciate being updated when they enjoy your music.

other than that there really is nothing else you can do

nah, really its all about exposure. get your music on multiple websites. in terms of sheer views, youtube is your friend. fully tag your videos with many, MANY relevant tags, have a cool picture, title screen, links to your newgrounds, myspace etc.

Simply by this I have gotten at least a hundred thousand views on my youtube channel so far over the past year across all of my videos, and people have found music they liked.

on newgrounds, where less people visit the audio portal, I've gotten maybe 50-70 thousand hits across all my songs total over the past 2 years. I only have 30 songs on youtube, and around 150 songs on newgrounds

it is up to you the musician to take responsibility for your exposure. youtube, myspace and newgrounds audio portal are all tools for you to use that are effective. a relatively obscure audio community is not, in terms of sheer exposure. Websites come into play when you become slightly more well known

now when it comes to learning techniques on how to make music better though, audio portal is the best on the web, hands down. i would put OCremix behind newgrounds in terms of learning potential, and helpfulness of the community simply becuase OCremix focuses on a very narrow band of music production. you can get help with alomst any genre from willing participants here on the audio commnunity and forums

[nathanallenpinard]

Two other words:

Social Networking

[JackRocker]

well, i've reviewed songs before, and i've only gotten a few revies back, but at least it was something. also, i posted a link to one of my songs on my facebook page. you might also make a flash(if you have the knowledge to do so, i don't so i'm screwed there) and put your song in it, or you could even make a video using your song and put it on youtube. include a link to the song if it's on NG, and you may get a few listeners/reviewers. make a myspace, and put your music there. but also, that dude that said burn CDs and leave them places and putting up fliers....i think he was kinda being a smartass, but it's not really a bad idea. anyway, like everyone else said, it takes time to establish a fan base. just be patient, and don't EVER give up. i'll check out your stuff if it's on NG. if not you'll have to hit me with a link.

[amaterasu]

I've always seen NG as more of a collective of artists helping eachother out as opposed to a place to seriously promote your music.

[EmperorCharlemagne]

I never want to PM people telling them I made a new song... It just feels kinda cheap. Of course, people PM me a whole bunch, and I respond more than half the time...
I try to be active, but I just make songs too slowly to be efficiently making songs for collabs with deadlines and flash artists who want something more high end. People seem to like the reviews I leave most of the time, because I try to be somewhat indepth and offer constructive criticism...

Still it's hard to get your name out there.

About the only thing I can do is push mah musix out on different forums and different communities where I am active as well as here... I don't kid myself into thinking I'll strike it big on NG like your PX9s or Metaljonus'.

I just must suck at social networking. But my advice about other forums is somewhat valid and pertaining to the question.

Ha, my Last.fm page doesn't even have 100 listeners!

Does linking your profile in your sig really work? Really?

[Calamaistr]

Sometimes the best music is rare music, because those people didnt sell their souls and talent away to get apreciated by people who have no understanding of music to begin with.

When you sacrifice your innovation just for the stats then you're no musician, youre just being a cornerstone of commerce, pretty much like people who pm 10.000 people on yt with friend invites because they want to promote their music, well woohoo you got 10.000 people you dont know under your name, my advice to everyone here is: do not promote yourself at all. Just study music if you really feel its something you want to be creating in this world, dont trouble yourself with making something other people like, the more of a compliment it is when people tell you they do.

[Bjra]

At 10/11/09 02:36 PM, Calamaistr wrote: Sometimes the best music is rare music, because those people didnt sell their souls and talent away to get apreciated by people who have no understanding of music to begin with.

this is the entire crux of the difference between musicians and people who just listen to music. what is the best music. why do musicians smugly proclaim that generic song by soulja boy is not the "best". because they know that the beat was probably made in 20 minutes, with a multiband limiter?

I was at a homecoming dance last night. everyone was dancing a bit. when crank dat started, everyone screamed and ran to the center of the dance floor and what ensued was a hodgepodge of crazy dance, the crowd moving up and down.

the song incited a powerful response from the audience. who gives a flying flip if the song was made in 20 minutes.

you are making music into something it is not, a huge egoed bullshit storm of all the crap you hear huge egoed musicians whining about whenever you bring up basshunter, or souljaboy, or [Insert generic mainstream artist here]

When you sacrifice your innovation just for the stats then you're no musician, youre just being a cornerstone of commerce, pretty much like people who pm 10.000 people on yt with friend invites because they want to promote their music, well woohoo you got 10.000 people you dont know under your name, my advice to everyone here is: do not promote yourself at all. Just study music if you really feel its something you want to be creating in this world, don't trouble yourself with making something other people like, the more of a compliment it is when people tell you they do.

you ARE a musician even if you make the "horrible offense" of making " generic dance songs" or "generic hip hop beats". being a musician isn't about being some super original android that other musicians can agree with on an intellectual level. its about creating music that EVERYONE can agree with on a MUSICAL level. ie. it elicits a positive response, be it dancing, shivers down spine, singing along, feeling of intense action, nostalgia, imagery, relaxation etc.

imagine this, how is someone playing the piano and creating an epic hit any different than someone making a hip hop beat that everyone loves. huh. your logic falls apart. by most musicians backwards logic, anyone who plays the piano is committing the atrocious sin of using one of the most copied and unoriginal instruments in the history of man, but for some reason this is acceptable, while throwing together tr808 drum kits with a steel drum is not?

well people can see you playing the piano. apparently the smug dogma of "he played it" as opposed to "he created that on a laptop/desktop" is at the forefront of everyone except people who just listen to music recreationaly, which ironically is 95% of the flipping population.

innovation is a bullshit term

if you make a hip hop beat that everyone thinks is a piece of crap, its still a piece of crap whether or not how innovative it is. if you make a moving hip hop beat, danceable, elicits a strong reaction from a crowd, or solitary listener, do you think it gives a monkey flip how innovative it is.

think about that for a minute

NOW

how does this relate to exposure and how to get more. well as a musician, you should be making music that moves people, and this is paramount. look at paragonx9, waterflame, nemesistheory. hardly participate in the audio community in the slightest, and don't promote their music at ALL, yet through creating so called "generic tripe" that everyone else supposedly "thinks is generic tripe" too, many casual listeners have been transported into nostalgia of games, intense enjoyment of the fast pace of a song, relaxation and genuine "otherwordly" experiences, listening to these songs.

so in addition to social networking and promoting yourself, focus on making songs that elicit powerful responses from your listener. how you get there doesnt matter, the final result is all that matters. thats why I shutter when i hear musicians decrying the mainstream for its lack of originality, when the other 9/10 people I talk too talk about how much they love those songs.

then musicians rationalize it by saying only people who know how to make music can appreciate music.

[nathanallenpinard]

At 10/11/09 02:36 PM, Calamaistr wrote: Sometimes the best music is rare music, because those people didnt sell their souls and talent away to get apreciated by people who have no understanding of music to begin with.

When you sacrifice your innovation just for the stats then you're no musician, youre just being a cornerstone of commerce, pretty much like people who pm 10.000 people on yt with friend invites because they want to promote their music, well woohoo you got 10.000 people you dont know under your name, my advice to everyone here is: do not promote yourself at all. Just study music if you really feel its something you want to be creating in this world, dont trouble yourself with making something other people like, the more of a compliment it is when people tell you they do.

You first need to understand the difference between making music as a hobby and making music as a pro before answering the OP's question.

You answered based on it being a hobby.

As far as "sell outs' I personally hate that statement. Just because I want to make a living, does not make me a sell out. Trust me, those people that are "sell outs" are seriously working their butts off. Way more than yoiu can imagine.

[Calamaistr]

At 10/11/09 03:03 PM, nathanallenpinard wrote:

You first need to understand the difference between making music as a hobby and making music as a pro before answering the OP's question.

You answered based on it being a hobby.

As far as "sell outs' I personally hate that statement. Just because I want to make a living, does not make me a sell out. Trust me, those people that are "sell outs" are seriously working their butts off. Way more than yoiu can imagine.

First of, you say to me its a hobby, it is but not just that.. to me music is a limb, its something ive been using and developing all my life, and i took it seriously because i discovered a whole universe within, another one of my 'hobbies' being relative dimensions.

Now you use the word pro as if it means something, but we all know that a profession is built on deadlines and what the masses want, added that the masses generally have no musical insight so what does that say exactly? Is being familiar with a program equal to having musical insight? I think not. If you make music to make 'a living' you mean to meet your needs? To make your buck in the industrial world we live in? And then you talk to me as if 'i need to understand the difference between hobby and what you call pro? Your hobby is luxioury, my hobby is recognicing similar mechanics, physics, patterns.. toward recognicing the divine measurement.

Bjra wrote:

:innovation is a bullshit term

:if you make a hip hop beat that everyone thinks is a piece of crap, its still a piece of crap whether or not how innovative it is. if you make a moving hip hop beat, danceable, elicits a strong reaction from a crowd, or solitary listener, do you think it gives a monkey flip how innovative it is.

:think about that for a minute

You turn it around now, all in all you state that there is no such thing as being knowledgeable in music because all that matters is how the music feels to people who want nothing more than to commune in the travesty of waving their genitals around on a beat.

You make it seem like the opinion of the majority equals some kind of absolute.

How about letting the worlds greatest woodscrafter make a masterpiece statue in a monkey pen, does it mean that his work was crap if the monkeys break it into pieces?

Think about that for a moment instead for a contrast.

Your raving is typically that wich a club oriented modern man with no musical experience would say, and i dont mean experience in the obvious casual scene. I do mean experience in understanding music itself. Furthermore your post is a drag full of the same old whinery and i dont feel like giving you a few lessons either, instead im just going to ignore you from now on, and dont bother thinking that youve won anything either as i forfeit this bullshit conversation, in the end you are the one with a lack of weathered knowledge.. thus character, no matter how much 'fun' you had getting aids on the dancefloor.

[SBB]

your post is a drag full of the same old whinery and i dont feel like giving you a few lessons either, instead im just going to ignore you from now on, and dont bother thinking that youve won anything either as i forfeit this bullshit conversation, (...) you are the one with a lack of weathered knowledge (...) getting aids on the dancefloor.

And that, people, is Calamaistr's excellent demonstration on how to gain friends...

[nathanallenpinard]

I don't make music to just "make a buck" I write music to do what I love to do, for a living.

And honestly, isn't that what just about everyone in the world wishes? Doing what you love to do, and not having to have a day job to do it.

First of, you say to me its a hobby, it is but not just that.. to me music is a limb, its something ive been using and developing all my life, and i took it seriously because i discovered a whole universe within, another one of my 'hobbies' being relative dimensions.

I take my music very seriously as well. I believe I have the ability to instill the right emotion with the right music. When it comes to film/tv/games, this works well for me. This is really just how it played out for me. Now as far as discovering a whole new universe within...I'd like some clarification on that.

[EmperorCharlemagne]

Bjra, I'm happy for you and I'mma let you finish, but-

In any event, I do have a gripe with your post, Bjra. You say that being a musician is about making music that everyoneunderstands/enjoys on a musical level. If you look to nearly every newest musical movement that comes out, that is most decidedly NOT the case. Music is not about appealing to people first and foremost, it is first and foremost about expression and the pursuit of art that most accurately matches your own temperament, whether it be DnB, classical, jazz, or metal... Having people enjoy your music is notthe prerequisite to being called a musician, I believe, and I think you'd be remiss in saying something to that effect.

While I highly praise innovation and fresh ideas, it's not necessarily needed. Thoughtfulness is needed, not being ground-breaking, as one person said to me a long time ago.

[Calamaistr]

At 10/11/09 03:43 PM, SBB wrote:

your post is a drag full of the same old whinery and i dont feel like giving you a few lessons either, instead im just going to ignore you from now on, and dont bother thinking that youve won anything either as i forfeit this bullshit conversation, (...) you are the one with a lack of weathered knowledge (...) getting aids on the dancefloor.

And that, people, is Calamaistr's excellent demonstration on how to gain friends...

Yea yea i know, as i do not nuance myself. Im not here to make friends and be some nodding happy of the community racking up points acting like someone im not, that would be exactly like that youtube friend request to promote ploy.

Im honest, im fair and sincere, but try to rapbattle me on cars beer and bling and ill just slap you in the head with facts. I dont care about the modern race for wealth, nor its struggle. Thats not my problem, im a pretty natural person so dont expect me to listen to the cries of the working man.

So what if people dislike me, i know im on a community that in majority contains the very kind of people i think lowly of, but that would be the same for the rest of the world it doesnt bother me.
Why do you think i like the relative? Because i know that there is no such thing as a set reality. Its 'all relative. So is reality, so why should i bother with creating some kind of likeable pesona, whats in it for me? Money? I dont need money, i have all the money in the world i'd want. Friends? I have real friends, what do i need with people i have something (in the case of the above that would be 'fake') in common with, i rather be friends with people that can impress me, that can inspire me.

So how to promote yourself? The answer is simple if you want to promote yourself: sell yourself.
And toss everything that cannot be sold aside, because when you start promoting yourself you do not live to make music, but you make music to live. You will need to meet deadlines and have got to become casual for thats where the majority thus the market is at, am i right? thought so.

[Bjra]

At 10/11/09 03:30 PM, Calamaistr wrote: Bjra wrote:

innovation is a bullshit term

if you make a hip hop beat that everyone thinks is a piece of crap, its still a piece of crap whether or not how innovative it is. if you make a moving hip hop beat, danceable, elicits a strong reaction from a crowd, or solitary listener, do you think it gives a monkey flip how innovative it is.

think about that for a minute

You turn it around now, all in all you state that there is no such thing as being knowledgeable in music because all that matters is how the music feels to people who want nothing more than to commune in the travesty of waving their genitals around on a beat.

never even hinted at that bro.

You make it seem like the opinion of the majority equals some kind of absolute.

Not what I was going for.

How about letting the worlds greatest woodscrafter make a masterpiece statue in a monkey pen, does it mean that his work was crap if the monkeys break it into pieces?

that is a poor analogy. what is your point

Your raving is typically that wich a club oriented modern man with no musical experience would say, and i dont mean experience in the obvious casual scene. I do mean experience in understanding music itself. Furthermore your post is a drag full of the same old whinery and i dont feel like giving you a few lessons either, instead im just going to ignore you from now on, and dont bother thinking that youve won anything either as i forfeit this bullshit conversation, in the end you are the one with a lack of weathered knowledge.. thus character, no matter how much 'fun' you had getting aids on the dancefloor.

are you trying to insinuate I'm a club rat you mindless, insult throwing, ad hominid abusing dolt.

you sit there being all passive aggressive, "ignoring me from now on", feeling all superior. I never attacked you as a person, or even hinted at attacking you as a person in my post. I attacked your point of view.

you responded by calling me a "club oriented modern man" with "no musical experience" which is an ad hominim argument which holds no water whatsoever. by insinuating these things, which you derived solely from your perspective of my arguments, you make the assertion that my argument is therefore invalid because of what you have surmised I am by your own perspective of my arguments.

in conclusion, i retain my core argument, as a musician wanting to gain more exposure, you should make music that people will want to listen to for whatever reason. now not knocking on the authors original ideas he presented, creating songs with the intention of innovation and originality is cool and all, but that's not what the majority of people are looking for in music. being able to call a song innovative is subjective in the least, and at the highest level is merely a mental labeling of music, which in all actually has absolutely nothing to do with overall enjoyment of a song.

I will attest though, in opposition to my point, that a small number of people actively seek innovative music to listen to, actively, and shun all music which they do not intellectually agree with as being "innovative", but these people are usually the people who hardly enjoy music except on an intellectual level, and that usually blocks any true enjoyment of music. these people are also usually people you and I would not want to talk to on a daily basis anyways, because their intellectual basis for the enjoyment of reality usually equates into a huge ego.

and a huge ego, fair sire, I would attest you have

[Calamaistr]

At 10/11/09 03:48 PM, nathanallenpinard wrote: I don't make music to just "make a buck" I write music to do what I love to do, for a living.

And honestly, isn't that what just about everyone in the world wishes? Doing what you love to do, and not having to have a day job to do it.

First of, you say to me its a hobby, it is but not just that.. to me music is a limb, its something ive been using and developing all my life, and i took it seriously because i discovered a whole universe within, another one of my 'hobbies' being relative dimensions.

I take my music very seriously as well. I believe I have the ability to instill the right emotion with the right music. When it comes to film/tv/games, this works well for me. This is really just how it played out for me. Now as far as discovering a whole new universe within...I'd like some clarification on that.

Then you are lucky, most musicians i know that make their own music ánd do so for a living are dealing with some serious money problems. Well, either that or your music is casual by default. It is just that wich you like, or have appealing to others.

[Bjra]

At 10/11/09 03:49 PM, EmperorCharlemagne wrote: Bjra, I'm happy for you and I'mma let you finish, but-

In any event, I do have a gripe with your post, Bjra. You say that being a musician is about making music that everyoneunderstands/enjoys on a musical level. If you look to nearly every newest musical movement that comes out, that is most decidedly NOT the case. Music is not about appealing to people first and foremost, it is first and foremost about expression and the pursuit of art that most accurately matches your own temperament, whether it be DnB, classical, jazz, or metal... Having people enjoy your music is notthe prerequisite to being called a musician, I believe, and I think you'd be remiss in saying something to that effect.

being called a musician really depends on ones definition of what musician is, what i was trying to get at in my post is that people are too worried about what people think about them and define them as. What does musician mean. does it have anything to do with enjoyment of music whatsoever?

one person might define that as someone who makes music thats enjoyable to listen to

another may define it as making music that you call innovative, and never uploading it anywhere

another may call it creating music for commercial purposes

another may call it making the most generic song you can possibly make by taking ideas from other songs, then getting ten million hits on youtube

yet another, learning one or more instruments and performing live at barstops for your life

yet another, learning one or more instruments, joining a band, becoming multiplatinum

i argue, QUIT WORRYING ABOUT WHAT OTHER PEOPLE PERCEIVE YOU AS

if you are worried about what other people think of you, put down the fruityloops and/or piano and/or whatever tool you call yourself a musician by, open a window, smell the fresh air, and realize what other people think of you has nothing to do with the music you create whatsoever. then take a nice liberating poop, while your on the toilet get inspiration for your most moving song ever, create it upload it and get on with your life

[nathanallenpinard]

If someone were to ask you "what do you do?" say, in a bar, with a hottie femme goth red head (oops...sorry) and you say "I'm a musician" you pretty much are stating that's what you do for a living.

But overall, the definition of music would be...suprise! Someone that performs, or creates music.

Btw, it's not JUST the money.

If you've ever heard a full ensemble play your own music you wrote, such as an orchestra. Or hear a track you created on some media, such as a web series, or a radio ad, or a TV show. That's a hell of a feeling. That's one of the bigger perks of working for someone else, creating music.

I won't dispute the fact that deadlines drive me, and that there is a certain type of music people ask for. But that doesn't dispute the fact that I still create music as I see fit. It's one thing to have no boundaries for creating music, and another for having them. It creates a challenge that you've never had before.

[TheAppreciationSocie]

Whichever jackass said that music should be aimed at EVERYBODY has a lot to learn. Songwriters should write the music that they themselves want to listen to, not just what a mass audience wants. Otherwise music just becomes a product to sell which it should never be. I'm not the kind of snob that puts down generic and popular music... thats insane as music is individual taste and people can listen to whatever they want, it doesnt bother me... but as a songwriter i will never think about what somebody else wants to hear, i will just try and convey my emotions in the song im writing. As a musician in want of money however, thats a completely different matter and of course you need to try and peform and play popular music.

General point: If Bob Dylan, Kurt Cobain, Lennon and Macartney, the Sex Pistols, Robert Plant, Guns N Roses (the list goes on) had written music only to entertain the average wanking joe... then music wouldn't be what it is today.
If Beethoven had composed symphonies for the uneducated and unadventurous and stuck to major triads then music would not have moved forward as it has.

MUSIC DOES NOT HAVE TO BE CREATED FOR EVERYBODY although thats not to say that people who do create music for the generic audience in want of money works any less hard... they are just doing a very different job to other songwriters.

[Calamaistr]

At 10/11/09 03:57 PM, Bjra wrote:

are you trying to insinuate I'm a club rat you mindless, insult throwing, ad hominid abusing dolt.

you sit there being all passive aggressive, "ignoring me from now on", feeling all superior. I never attacked you as a person, or even hinted at attacking you as a person in my post. I attacked your point of view.

Frankly.. i AM my point of view.

you responded by calling me a "club oriented modern man" with "no musical experience" which is an ad hominim argument which holds no water whatsoever. by insinuating these things, which you derived solely from your perspective of my arguments, you make the assertion that my argument is therefore invalid because of what you have surmised I am by your own perspective of my arguments.

Then are your arguements not a part of your opinion? Or is the critique so daunting to you?
Do you take it personally or not? You are saying that it is not wich you say that is what is says but my perception of it? You make no sense whatsoever.

in conclusion, i retain my core argument, as a musician wanting to gain more exposure, you should make music that people will want to listen to for whatever reason. now not knocking on the authors original ideas he presented, creating songs with the intention of innovation and originality is cool and all, but that's not what the majority of people are looking for in music. being able to call a song innovative is subjective in the least, and at the highest level is merely a mental labeling of music, which in all actually has absolutely nothing to do with overall enjoyment of a song.

The question is who defines these things, as far as i know people can analyse all they want but it makes nothing absolute no matter their number, its all a matter on your point of view. (in general)
Im fiercly disagreeing with your portrayal of the masses deciding what is and what is not quality music, like emperor said it is all about your innovation or creativity as a composer, and the knowledge of the physics of music in order to make quality music. You can have a million people dancing (on drugs if necaserry) on your music but it will not make you a better composer than the hermit that constructed an unheard masterpiece, on the contrary.. this is a philosophical matter.

I will attest though, in opposition to my point, that a small number of people actively seek innovative music to listen to, actively, and shun all music which they do not intellectually agree with as being "innovative", but these people are usually the people who hardly enjoy music except on an intellectual level, and that usually blocks any true enjoyment of music. these people are also usually people you and I would not want to talk to on a daily basis anyways, because their intellectual basis for the enjoyment of reality usually equates into a huge ego.

and a huge ego, fair sire, I would attest you have

True enjoyment? How do you define this?
By this i take that youre trying to say ignorance is bliss?
Let me tell you that there is no such thing as mastering music, music is not manmade, it is something universal that we as men are guests compared. We lend harmony from a sea of sound, we are adventurers in its domain. So there can be no master looking down upon other peoples music, to someone who is educated in music; uneducated compositions perhaps containing repetition, falsa or worse 'sampled (such as discjockying) elements are looked down upon because they are in fact rubbish, they may sound nice to the unexperienced ear, especially with a textbook percussion now that were talking again, or atleast some kind of basic rythm wich is used in rap/hiphop for instance (yes, rythm is the basics of music thank you very much, but even rythm is a universe of its own wich can evolve into dnb) that people can 'move' on because it makes them 'feel' as being a part of something, wether it is the structure of sound or other people in the vicinity.

Good enough, im not going to condemn something like that, but it is and stays 'basic'.
It is almost effortless, plain, obvious and easy.. perhaps not to the masses (the passive, the listeners) but it is to those who are actual composers, people who 'are music, live music.. would even continue making music if they had no instruments: in their heads. Who go to bed with a symfony playing and wake up with it still. Who walk, bike or ride around thinking of music, and see music in every little detail around them. (as bach said: architecture is frozen music, referring to the divine measurement) There is music on a whole other level, and perhaps you dont want or cant see this or comprehend it but it is as much as there are worlds within every rock you see on the ground.