Forum Topic: Using headphones

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SessileNomad

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Posted at: 10/7/09 07:01 PM

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so my friend let me borrow some pretty nice headphones

i see alot of people in the AF saying that when mastering and stuff, its better to use headphones, but im not really sure why that is

anyone have a good explaination for this, because somtimes i think headphones would be bad for mastering, what if you have particularly bassy headphones, then your track would lack bass because you would think its got bass, but its just your headphones

hopefully that makes sense

so yeah, lets discuss headphones :)

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Mich

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Posted at: 10/7/09 07:16 PM

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I think that for one particular thing (in mixing though) headphones are mandatory: panning.
Also, you can get better perception of your sound by using headphones, as you get acoustic annoyances when using speakers. Reflections can give you a false perception of how something actually sounds, and that problem get eliminated by the use of headphones.


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loansindi

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Posted at: 10/7/09 07:34 PM

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At 10/7/09 07:16 PM, Mich wrote: I think that for one particular thing (in mixing though) headphones are mandatory: panning.

Nah. If you've got a decent setup panning works fine on speakers. If anything, headphones give you a different perspective of panning, though not necessarily better.

Also, you can get better perception of your sound by using headphones, as you get acoustic annoyances when using speakers.

There's some truth here. Non-optimal setups can really affect the way your speakers sound. Comb filtering can actually basically deaden specific frequencies.

Reflections can give you a false perception of how something actually sounds, and that problem get eliminated by the use of headphones.

Buuut headphones can bring in a whole range of their own problems. Most often noted is that headphones generally over-emphasize low frequencies (kind of a reverse proximity effect), (you mention this in your original post).

I guess the thing to remember is that a track shouldn't be called 'done' until you've listened to it on at least a couple different systems. (Like, your headphones, the stereo in the living room, your car) Only then can you be sure it'll translate well to a wide variety of listening situations, because that's what is most important.


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Nosferatu-of-Worms

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Posted at: 10/7/09 07:37 PM

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Depends on what kind of headphones you use, there is such thing as "monitoring headphones" which are used for mixing and mastering. Also headphones can help to isolate outside noises, so you can focus more on the sound of your music and not what's going on around you.

As my personal opinion I like using headphones, I think I achieve a better overall sound then if I didn't (unless of course I had studio monitors, then it'd be different).

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amaterasu

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Posted at: 10/7/09 08:23 PM

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If you get good balanced studio headphones you won't have to worry too much about frequencies being misrepresented. But as mentioned before, the real key to getting a good master/mixdown is testing your track on various sound systems throughout the process.

I tend to use headphones as an "audio magnifying glass" in composing. I use monitors by default, but when it comes to fine tuning details, I'll switch to the cans. By fine tuning details, I mean things like fitting tracks together, adjusting reverb tails, tuning complex timbres, and eventually the first mixdown. I prefer monitors for everything else because the feeling you get from open-air music just isn't there with headphones. Something about the energy it creates in the room, and also I like to physically feel my grooves as I design them.

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Jeffaro

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Posted at: 10/7/09 09:15 PM

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If you use a decent pair of studio headphones for mastering you will hear certain frequencies that you would not hear on SOME speakers.Personally, I don't fully rely on my headphones to master a song.On regular speakers some things may be too loud, such as a snare drum or bass guitar.I end up having to switch between the both of them to find a mix that will sound good on MOST speaker setups.

TLDR: You need to use head phones and speakers.


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Calamaistr

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Posted at: 10/8/09 07:55 AM

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I always use (awesome sennheiser) headphones but when im done with the track i always listen to it with the headphones unplugged to see if indeed the lower tones or bass percussion isnt crap. Imo listening to music with heaphones beats listening to it trough speakers anytime though.

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nathanallenpinard

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Posted at: 10/8/09 08:08 AM

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Headphones should never be used exclusively for mixing or mastering. Never exclusively. Reference yes, but no studio ever uses headphones alone when it comes to mixing.

Even if headphones don't have reflective properties (which they do actually) not having reflective properties can cause even more problems.

The distance between your ear and the sound is quiet important, and headphones shorten this.


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EasilyEmbarrassed

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Posted at: 10/8/09 11:44 AM

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We don't use our headphones for the mastering. Only to detect annoying clicks in the sound. Which you can nearly hear on the monitor speakers. We use AKG K271 mkII Headphones for that. Monitor Headphones got a totally different sound then your monitor speakers have, but can help a lot to find anoying frequencies or sounds. So we definitely use it for the mix of our music, but still using our monitor speakers a way lot more.


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Koriigahn

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Posted at: 10/8/09 12:07 PM

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As long as you know what you are doing, it's personal preference. I've heard pretty top notch mixdowns from producers using headphones, yet i've also heard top notch mixdowns from using speakers.

At the end of the day, it's what suits you. Always bear in mind the people listening to your songs aren't thinking, "HEY THAT PANNING ON THE LEFT IS BAD IM NOT DANSE TO THIS SONG!", but rather, "hey this has a catchy beat, or melody or whatever! I'm going to dance to this song!".

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nathanallenpinard

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Posted at: 10/8/09 01:08 PM

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I'll say one thing that it causes on headphones that isn't good. Ear fatigue happens much quicker.


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amaterasu

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Posted at: 10/8/09 01:12 PM

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At 10/8/09 01:08 PM, nathanallenpinard wrote: I'll say one thing that it causes on headphones that isn't good. Ear fatigue happens much quicker.

So true! Thats why I try to use them only when needed.

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Mich

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Posted at: 10/8/09 06:48 PM

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At 10/8/09 01:08 PM, nathanallenpinard wrote: I'll say one thing that it causes on headphones that isn't good. Ear fatigue happens much quicker.

I can agree to this by personal experience. If you've had headphones on for a couple of hours, it really get annoying to go on. Therefore I'm really glad I have my monitor speakers. I mostly just switch to headphones if there are people in the house and I'm working on the mix of a certain part that sounds annoying when repeated for a long time.

I think this ear fatigue also depends quite a bit on the shape of your headphones though. When I've had mine on for a couple of hours, then take them of, my ears tend to hurt on the outside. But perhaps that's not part of what we call ear fatigue. You tell me.


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Zero123Music

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Posted at: 10/8/09 06:54 PM

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I used to have headphones that you could switch from mono to stereo, and I always accidentally put it on mono, so when I switched to stereo everything sounded amazing :P

now I just use crappy earpieces, and my speakers are bassy :(

if you can't see the picture your computer specifications are too bad :P


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Rig

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Posted at: 10/8/09 07:33 PM

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I find that headphones are actually poorer for mixing stereo signals. Speakers generally aren't pointed straight at each ear when you listen to music...they tend to be in front of you, pointing towards your shoulders. The stereo field is much narrower.

When you wear headphones, the stereo field is a lot wider, and most producers tend to "narrow" their stereo spectrum to make it sound more like a speaker setup. Then they listen to their song through speakers and wonder why it sounds so mono. However, professional headphones have very flat frequency spectrums.

My profs suggest mixing the stereo spectrum with speakers, and mixing the frequency spectrum with headphones.


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Mixing on headphones is a plus for the matter of trying to related to the common medium used to listen to the music. Of course as said, headphones soiltarily are not very much good at all, but when mastering, you can plug in a couple pairs of headphones to see what it will sound like when someone listens to it. Not everyone listens to their music on speakers, and not everyone uses headphones. So it's still good to balance out between the two.


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Calamaistr

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Posted at: 10/8/09 09:01 PM

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At 10/8/09 12:07 PM, Koriigahn wrote:
At the end of the day, it's what suits you. Always bear in mind the people listening to your songs aren't thinking, "HEY THAT PANNING ON THE LEFT IS BAD IM NOT DANSE TO THIS SONG!", but rather, "hey this has a catchy beat, or melody or whatever! I'm going to dance to this song!".

I would find dancing to my music the biggest insult anyone could possibly give me. But thats me.

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ghostblairdarkness

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Posted at: 10/8/09 09:39 PM

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Hmmm...well there reason i wouldnt use headphones while masterbaiting is well...i don't think i would hear someone cmon in the house and well one thing will leade to another and like others say its also bad if your mixing too so yea. Good head phones + good music = :) Porn + head phones = :o Mixing + head phones= a bad aftermat of the music you tryin to make.

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gregisgreat

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Posted at: 10/9/09 03:18 AM

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I use a Creative X-Fi USB Headset when listening to music/watching flash videos, and playing games, it gives you an actual 'surround' feeling, as long as you keep the volume down, you should be able to hear things normally not hear-able by normal speakers (even the 7.1 or 10.1 sets)

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loansindi

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Posted at: 10/9/09 03:29 AM

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At 10/8/09 09:01 PM, Calamaistr wrote: I would find dancing to my music the biggest insult anyone could possibly give me. But thats me.

Wow. Really? You'd vote for dancing over, say, someone telling you they hated your music? At least they're enjoying it.

(even the 7.1 or 10.1 sets)

Does anyone actually produce ten channel content?


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pr0ded

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Posted at: 10/9/09 04:57 AM

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i told you bitches about crossfeeding and ear fatigue, with science
no wacked out explanations with a touch of irony
http://bs2b.sourceforge.net/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossfeed

.
.
.


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Reaper93

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Posted at: 10/9/09 06:57 AM

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I have used headphones almost exclusively for my audio needs for years. They have yet to let me down, and I'll tell you why.

1) A good pair of headphones is going to be an order of magnitude cheaper than comparable speakers.
2) They give you a very precise audio image of panning (and with the nice crossfader on my amp, also provide a rather speaker-like audio experience, at least for stereo).
3) The higher end headphones can maintain a fairly good flat response graph for frequency. Headphones very rarely if ever in my experience "over-emphasize" bass. Most headphones are distinctly lacking in bass, and I challenge you to show otherwise with actual frequency response proof.

Also if you're getting "ear-fatigue" your headphones suck a big one. I hate to be the one to tell you, but they do. I can wear these Denon AH-D2000's for hours and usually do. Light as a feather despite giving me the Princess Leia look :P

Headphones offer a very precise form of listening that you can't get out of a speaker system, but on the other side of the coin, they are a bit too focused for some tasks. I think it'd be great to have both, but the pros and cons are balanced against speakers quite nicely, and on a budget I think the headphones are better. They will also let you notice minor distortion and weird artifacts like that a lot easier than speakers will.


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nathanallenpinard

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Posted at: 10/9/09 09:24 AM

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Of course headphones are useful and an ok solution in a low budget studio. But in any pro situation, headphones are not ideal exclusively.

Headphones offer a very precise form of listening that you can't get out of a speaker system

That's not the case if you have the correct setup. Granted speakers are more expensive. But there are monitoring headphones that go above $500 as well, and they STILL aren't a single solution.


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Reaper93

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Posted at: 10/9/09 05:35 PM

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No, I mean speakers literally cannot separate their right and left channels because speakers are always transmitting from a fair distance away. That is the precise form of listening that you can't get out of speakers because it's literally not possible to fully isolate L and R channels :)

But I agree, professionally speaking, get both. On a budget get the headphones.


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loansindi

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Posted at: 10/9/09 05:39 PM

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At 10/9/09 05:35 PM, Reaper93 wrote: No, I mean speakers literally cannot separate their right and left channels because speakers are always transmitting from a fair distance away.

False. False. False.

If your speakers can't establish a stereo field, then you're doing it wrong. Simple as that. I hear perfectly fine stereo separation on my setup.

That is the precise form of listening that you can't get out of speakers because it's literally not possible to fully isolate L and R channels :)

You mean exaggerated.


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nathanallenpinard

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Posted at: 10/9/09 05:48 PM

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That is the precise form of listening that you can't get out of speakers because it's literally not possible to fully isolate L and R channels :)

Actually near field directional monitors could obtain the same thing, but that's beside the point.

You don't WANT your signals to be isolated. When you pan, you don't even want any of your tracks hard panned ever with some exceptions (usually in electronic music)


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InGenius

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Posted at: 10/10/09 03:56 PM

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Alot of junk being said in this thread. No studio worth the money you pay for good mastering will EVER master on headphones. Headphones distort signal because of their size, proximity to the ears, and division of stereo width. There is no genre of music specifically meant to be played in headphones so there is no genre which benefits from mastering on headphones. You need to mix and master on the medium which the music will predominantly be played, which are speakers. Add to that the fact that near-field and mid-field monitors are specifically manufactured, marketed and represented by their lack of color and flat response, and you have even more good reasons why headphones cannot compete in the mastering process. Headphones, by virtue of physics, cannot represent bass waves below a certain threshold with any amount of even response since their drivers and cones are not large enough to reproduce sound below an arbitrary Hz point. Frankly, I'm curious who was claiming mastering on headphones is the best option.

That said, yes using studio headphones as a reference is a good idea in mixing, not particularly in mastering. As has already been said, headphones are great for catching pop, hiss, noise, etc. that could just squeeze by on near-fields. Otherwise, I relegate my studio cans to the job they were purchased for: artist's monitor for vocal recordings.

There are three pillars of music production and engineering: Recording, Mixing, and Mastering. Each arm is a science all of it's own, and you can learn any of the arms of this beast to a certain extent through experience and repeated testing. But, none of these things can be learned to the fullest extent simply through your own experimentation, let alone all three. You need to spend time with those who have attained a mastery of them to truly appreciate how hard some of these "arts" of production and engineering truly are.

On the recording side, as we get better recording equipment we improve ten fold over our initial attempts to record, but the improvements die off until we begin to look at sound dampening, diffusion, proper EQ and FX chains coming in, etc. From the mixing aspect, we improve greatly as we learn how to EQ out unused freqs on instruments, how to use an FX chain to change the color of a sound, how to thicken sounds, etc. but again improvement dies off until we get proper monitoring equipment, diffusion, bass trapping, and learn the fine art of compression, EQ, reverb and delay, etc. And as for Mastering, it is an artform which is both simple and excedingly complex when we look at it. Simply put, Mastering prepares a collection of tracks for print to media, bringing the sounds together, leveling the signal, tuning the EQ sturcture, etc. Anyone can throw a track through Ozone, hit a preset that sounds decent and churn out an mp3. But to truly grasp mastering, you need an excellent room setup with proper QRD diffusion, excellent bass trapping, a spot-on monitoring setup, the lowest signal-to-noise ratio possible, etc.

So, TL;DR: don't believe everything you see on the forum, don't use headphones to master, headphones are best for reference and record monitoring, recording/mixing/mastering are arts which anyone can get into but few can master.


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amaterasu

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Posted at: 10/10/09 05:25 PM

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At 10/10/09 03:56 PM, InGenius wrote: So, TL;DR: don't believe everything you see on the forum, don't use headphones to master, headphones are best for reference and record monitoring, recording/mixing/mastering are arts which anyone can get into but few can master.

Good info, and yeah there is alot if misinformation spread around on this forum. You just have to get used to ignoring that considering newgrounds tends to have a younger age demographic.

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loansindi

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Posted at: 10/10/09 05:32 PM

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At 10/10/09 03:56 PM, InGenius wrote: a genuine essay

You make comments regarding 'the medium on which the music will be played.'

I bet if we took a survey of your average music consumer, many of them would tell you that their primary medium for music consumption is, in fact, headphones.


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nathanallenpinard

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Posted at: 10/10/09 05:50 PM

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Yes, but mixing with speakers for some reason ends up sounding just as good on headphones.

Mixing with headphones, does not yield the same results. Usually the EQ, and levels are way off.


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