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At 11/8/09 05:44 PM, Abuelodigital17 wrote:

I read yours. Personally I love the idea of a prison in a black ocean with endless mazes of glass chambers and strange "wardens" with blades and glowing blue eyes and weird movements. Its all very creepy. I loved the description of the man sitting next to the main character with his belley button ripped out, good description. In other wrods, your main good point is the way you develop your atmosphere.

As for the bad side, it was a very confusing story. The ending was a bit strange and didnt make all that much sense. You could have made it clearer about what that place was. It could have been a scientific test or a prison.

I'm glad you liked it. It's my first horror story and I wasn't sure if it was scary or not. I understand why you think it's confusing. Some things were obvious to me because I'm the one who is writing it... Besides, I like leaving things unexplained so that the reader has to tie the loose ends by himself.

I also thought that it would be impossible for the man to survive more than a minute in the ocean because the waves were moving so quickly that the blood would have been rushed out of his body very quickly.

I don't know... salty water makes blood clot faster but maybe you're right.

I was just confused by many of the things that happened.

Hint: the main character is female, not male... re-read the ending and you will understand what happened.
I can explain everything , just ask me and I'll answer your questions ;) I have some questions about your story as well, if you're willing to explain the things I didn't understand let me know.

I give you a 6.8/10

Wonderful atmosphere, confusing plot, strange and exotic characters, poor design, overall preety good job man.

What do you mean when you say 'poor design'? (I want to improve).
Thanks for the feedback!

the design is the main thing that brought down your score. It was too chaotic. I understand that sometimes in punk genre the story tries to make things seem chaotic and clautophobic and tries to make the reader feel what che character is feeling, but this was just to chaotic. I realize that we have a 5000 word limit which means you sometimes have to skip straight to the point of each paragraph, but you still had a good amount of words that you could have written. I suggest switching each scene eith a bit more organization. For example, you made the long wait of going on the lift just two seconds for the reader. Then all of a sudden he was outside and in the ocean in the next sentence. Use your good description skills to set up some things before jumping from one thought to the next.

Please pay in mind that just because I think your story is disorganized does not mean that others will as well. Others might take it to be organized because it is supposed to be disorganized, as in the classic chaotic feeling the story should give, but I felt that you should have been a bit more organized in plot so that I would understand clearly what was going on.

And remember, I still enjoyed your ideas! You were very creative man and truly have potential as a writer. Good luck in your future writing and I hope my jib jabbering will be able to help in some way.

At 11/8/09 12:45 PM, TheReno wrote:
I personally use numbers after a review because it expresses a whole lot more then what I said. Take what I said about rapemuffins story. Its all very good I just elaborated on a couple issues with it but all in all It was a good review, makes ya think it was near perfect. If one were to give a number grade you might think its a 9 (or 90 on your scale) but it wasnt. The issues I pointed out were a tad bigger then what they might seem. Well only the one where the detective takes the story in too quickly, and that cost some points (for me). And the reason I dont round up to even numbers is the same reason you leave a penny on the table as tip for a bad waitress, its a more powerful image.

Thats why the numbers are there, its all about showing what I cant describe. And if you dont like that, I cant review your work properly because there is just shit i cant put words to.

Maybe I could elaborate more clearly on my views on what I consider to be proper analytical review. Firstly, I don't think that using numbers in a review is essentially bad. It can be very to the point when a proper rating system is used. and a 1 to 10 scale isn't bad. But the problem with this scale it create a problem of
Four Point Scale. Ofcourse this is up to the critical fortitude of the reviewer and the interpretation of the reader. So, in reality it's more of a people problem. However, it's still a mediocre system for the fact that Four Point Scale exists. It's a critical flaw in this system. I find it gets worse, much worst when this ten point based rating system include decimals. Now you argued that using giving a piece of work a grade or, lets say 9 out of 10 would be a 90 on the example I used. I believe, you didn't get what I was trying to express. I am sorry about that, so I shall explain carefully what I was getting at.

Here's what I meant: A rating scale based on a 1 to 10 system has just that, 10 possible grades or ratings. In contrast a decimal based 1 to 10 system has a possibility of 100 different ratings. 110 if it's a 0 to 10 system, or rather a 0.0 to 10.0 system. The major problem this creates is Eight Point Eight. It's not a very good rating system I find and is not simple or cohesive.

There must be a simpler and better system of rating to use. Now, I understand that most of the people in this thread have judged and said that they understood my point of view but said that they needed a rating system with numbers to declare a clear winner. I guess it's my fault for not clearly explaining that I am not against number based rating system; not entirely atleast. I was trying to establish a need for a better system for rating.

I purpose this system. Instead of a 1 to 10 system we should just use a 1 to 5 system. It simple, it removes the Four Point Scale and the Eight Point Eight. It makes judging much more easier I find. There is less chance for jargon in reviews and you're still able to express what words can not.

Now, that being said, I still want you to review my story. Infact, I am more than willing to accept your use of your rating system. I won't let a difference in ideas or opinions keep you from doing what you offered. To review our stories at request.

So please, continue.

We will continue to use an 10 point scale with decimals, which you may multiply by 10 and have it be 100 point scale if you so choose. There is not enough differentiation on a 5 point scale or even a 10 point scale to determine winners. And I'm sorry if you dislike the system, but when you submitted your story you agree as specified in the contest page, to abide by our system for judging. If you dislike this you are free to not participate in the future. I regret to inform you that 5 point system would only worsen the situation.

I will, however, bring up the issue of a rubric again with my fellow judges. We have yet to establish one, though its been brought up before. If you would rather have us systematically grade your piece based on a small set of criteria rather than the wholeness of the final product, I can look into doing so and you can expect further numbers in the future.

So gum, how goes the judging? Has anyone sent in their choices or is it still to early?

At 11/9/09 12:54 PM, TheReno wrote: So gum, how goes the judging? Has anyone sent in their choices or is it still to early?

Its still to early, I'm beginning my judging in earnest this week.

At 11/9/09 08:56 AM, gumOnShoe wrote: I will, however, bring up the issue of a rubric again with my fellow judges. We have yet to establish one, though its been brought up before. If you would rather have us systematically grade your piece based on a small set of criteria rather than the wholeness of the final product, I can look into doing so and you can expect further numbers in the future.

I think that it should stay how it is right now. Taking a page from the beginning of Dead Poetics Society (no pun intended), you can't create a systematic way to judge literature. Creating a rubric to base the scores on is stupid. It falls back on the point-scale argument. It's hard to quantify what the value of a story is. I only support the scale because it's an easy way to get a feeling about what a person thought about the story, and makes it easy to judge.

A piece of work is more than the sum of it's parts. It's the way that those parts were used that makes literature have value. You can't try to pack every kind of story submitted into some kind of cookie-cutter grading system.

At 11/9/09 12:57 PM, gumOnShoe wrote:

At 11/9/09 12:54 PM, TheReno wrote: So gum, how goes the judging? Has anyone sent in their choices or is it still to early?

Its still to early, I'm beginning my judging in earnest this week.

I'm not going to be able to get my judging results in until late next week, at best. Lots of school shit going down.

At 11/9/09 08:56 AM, gumOnShoe wrote: We will continue to use an 10 point scale with decimals, which you may multiply by 10 and have it be 100 point scale if you so choose.

I am perfectly fine with this. After all, as I am only offering a suggestion. But, again I have to point out that my basis is not by simply multiplying it by 10. It's because a decimal based 1 to 10 system allows for 100 different possible ratings. Which is excessive.

At 11/9/09 08:56 AM, gumOnShoe wrote: There is not enough differentiation on a 5 point scale or even a 10 point scale to determine winners.

I agree on the fact that you need a system that determines a clear winner. This is possibly the only positive thing you can find from a decimal based system. But, what's there to say a cumulative system can't determine a winner? Ofcourse there needs to be testing. But I see no reason why it can't work.

At 11/9/09 08:56 AM, gumOnShoe wrote: And I'm sorry if you dislike the system, but when you submitted your story you agree as specified in the contest page, to abide by our system for judging. If you dislike this you are free to not participate in the future. I regret to inform you that 5 point system would only worsen the situation.

Okay, I am a bit offended by this for a few reasons. Firstly, I while I do think the system is full of problems, i am not denying that it works. It just works in a very chaotic way. Secondly, I am trying to offer a change in the way the process of judging entries, a passing suggestion based on a difference in philosophy. To create a better order in the process. I am more than willing to abide by the accepted rules, but am I not allowed to suggest a system, i think would be better? Thirdly, the fact that you said: "If you dislike this, you are free to not participate." That's the equivalent of saying "if you don't like don't watch." That just says that a person can not take criticism. That does not advance knowledge. And finally, I would like to understand your reasoning why a 5 point system can't work. Granted it would be less easy to tally the votes. There are cons to every rating system. I just happen to find that this system is less chaotic than the current one.

At 11/9/09 08:56 AM, gumOnShoe wrote:
I will, however, bring up the issue of a rubric again with my fellow judges. We have yet to establish one, though its been brought up before. If you would rather have us systematically grade your piece based on a small set of criteria rather than the wholeness of the final product, I can look into doing so and you can expect further numbers in the future.

That would cause more chaos. A piece of fiction should be judged on personal enjoyment and not via specified criteria.

There, I hoped that I explained everything better. I hope you got the message that I am offering a suggestion based on personal preferences and analysis. I accept the original system and am more than adamant to keep submitting stories with that system. I just wanted to express my views on what I think and feel is a better system to work with.

All I wanted was a review. Was that so hard to do?

At 11/9/09 06:25 AM, MattTheParanoidKat wrote:
a 1 to 10 scale isn't bad. But the problem with this scale it create a problem of
Four Point Scale.
I purpose this system. Instead of a 1 to 10 system we should just use a 1 to 5 system. It simple, it removes the Four Point Scale and the Eight Point Eight. It makes judging much more easier I find. There is less chance for jargon in reviews and you're still able to express what words can not.

A 1 to 5 system would not neccessarily alleviate the Four Point Scale issue. I find that, when rated out of five, only the absolute worst of the worst (be it movies, video games or anything else) end up with a rating below 2 1/2.

What if judges created a list of, say, their top dozen stories, their favorite being awarded 12 points, second awarded 11, and so on, and these lists were then aggregated? That way stories would be graded via placings rather than a scale of any sort, and there would still be a tidy mathematical way to decide the winner.

At 11/10/09 07:45 PM, Reptyle wrote:

What if judges created a list of, say, their top dozen stories, their favorite being awarded 12 points, second awarded 11, and so on, and these lists were then aggregated? That way stories would be graded via placings rather than a scale of any sort, and there would still be a tidy mathematical way to decide the winner.

I probably have no place saying this, but I like those kinds of scales. It's like how they do it in racing (or at least Mario Kart); you can lose a race or two but still do well overall. Gives room for opinion among reviewers.

...disregard the last little bit. It sounds stupid in retrospect and there's no edit button.

At 11/10/09 07:45 PM, Reptyle wrote: What if judges created a list of, say, their top dozen stories, their favorite being awarded 12 points, second awarded 11, and so on, and these lists were then aggregated? That way stories would be graded via placings rather than a scale of any sort, and there would still be a tidy mathematical way to decide the winner.

Actually, that's the way it is done. What the reviewers do is give the story a grade (1 through 10), then give it to gum. Once gum gets all the judges' scores, he takes the 5 highest rated from each judge and gives them points; 5 given to the highest rated, 1 to 5th place. Then those scores are aggregated and winners are found.

Obviously any numerically based scale can develop the "four point scale" problem. The article you posted a link to used games journalism as an example. Well, the solution to that is "new games journalism" where the reviewer gives a lengthy description of their thoughts and feelings while they were playing the game. (For examples of that, look at Large Prime Numbers or The Gamer's Quarter). But most reviews in this style are extremely long and often boring and always pretentious, so we should probably stick with numbers, just as long as those numbers are backed by reasoning.

So judges.... how's it going?

At 11/8/09 08:30 PM, FatKidWitAJetPak wrote:

And remember, I still enjoyed your ideas! You were very creative man and truly have potential as a writer. Good luck in your future writing and I hope my jib jabbering will be able to help in some way.

Thanks again, your feedback helped me. A lot.

I'm still reading the rest of the stories, I'll post short reviews soon.

Whats the word bird? Anyone done judging?

I can't wait for the results, i read through most of the entrys and they are all such high standards! :( I don't think mine was good enough, but hey :) i enjoyed them all.

At 11/17/09 09:11 AM, UnderlingX wrote: I can't wait for the results, i read through most of the entrys and they are all such high standards! :( I don't think mine was good enough, but hey :) i enjoyed them all.

I'm reading yours. I'll post a short review if you want. Let me know what you thought about my story if you have read it ;)

At 11/17/09 09:11 AM, UnderlingX wrote: I can't wait for the results, i read through most of the entrys and they are all such high standards! :( I don't think mine was good enough, but hey :) i enjoyed them all.

If you don't mind, could you share what you thought of my story? Assuming that you read it of course.

I'd be happy to read your story and review it if you do mine

Sorry about the wait in judging. I'm still not very far at all unfortunately. Things have popped up this past week and... well, I shouldn't make excuses really. I've had a couple of issues that relate to the competition itself, getting myself confused and so on, again, not really relevant. I'll try to get more than a few entries done tomorrow and in the days after that, but I don't know. It sucks, I'm sorry.

At 11/14/09 07:45 PM, TheThing wrote: So judges.... how's it going?

Not so well, I haven't even started. Just like I feared, I got nailed with a fuckton of work. I'm almost done. All I have left to do is complete a financial management semester project I haven't even started yet that is due this Thursday, do a take-home quiz, do math homework, study for a math quiz, and make up an exam. So the end is in sight, and I'll have plenty of time to do my judging over my Thanksgiving break.

WELL HURRY UP YOUS GUISE! >:C

I mean, it's a big competition. It's cool. Take your time.

In the meantime, anyone else waiting around can read my dieselpunk horror story Flonkerton or my steampunk adventure novel (in progress) In the Valley of the Tempest and tell me what you think.
I haven't read/reviewed anyone else's stories yet, simply because I haven't stopped writing.

In the Valley of the Tempest is for National Novel Writing Month, and I'm 17 full days and 27,000 words down of 30 days and 50,000 words. In my opinion, the first four chapters are well worth your time despite being a straight off the bat draft.

I was gunna write for the nover comp but I decided against it. Like if I cant get 3rd in a short story contest amungst a small group of people, how will I fare with a novel and a large group? When Im good enough to get a 3rd place or maybe second in these comps, I will consider writing a novel.

At 11/18/09 01:34 PM, TheReno wrote: I was gunna write for the nover comp but I decided against it. Like if I cant get 3rd in a short story contest amungst a small group of people, how will I fare with a novel and a large group? When Im good enough to get a 3rd place or maybe second in these comps, I will consider writing a novel.

Without being too aware of the idea (and I don't know if I've mixed this up with anything), I think the novel idea is intended to help you flex your creative muscles and to develop the sorts of ways your literary techniques may develop themselves, and to try and have a go at writing a more extended piece without throwing in the sort of routine a more experienced novelist might use, although I'm very much aware that good novels can be written quite quickly, editing and getting different ideas out there in the mix can take longer can therefore affect how long/what, but this sentence is already overlong ownpjfgoj[.

It serves the same purpose as these competitions in a way, and while the core group of writers on Newgrounds is undeniably smaller at present than the groups of artists, programmers and musicians, there's still talent here. And I'm not just saying that because I feel "obligated to", or whatever the cynic might shrug off with, and I'm not making strangely unflattering excuses about my own writing ("oh my own writing's really good, but I've never won because a couple of people are slightly better!"). I'm reading through the entries to this competition now, and while I'm shaky with some of the principles in action, there's some good stuff in here. Genre tastes aside, this contest has had a good deal of quality submissions from you guys.

I wouldn't undermine yourself as a writer if you didn't place in the top three. I've not read your entry yet, but we'll see how it all turns out in the end. I've only ever placed as high as 4th - I like to tell myself that I can improve on that, but I've had some ideas also that would be totally inappropriate for one of these competitions going off their lengths and popular themes so far. That said, I would say try not to think of these things as a means of guiding your talent. Creative writing is so open - your abilities can be developed so frequently in different ways.

hey, was there a November contest? I dont remember seeing one...

thanks

I guess everyone quit x3

At 11/21/09 06:18 PM, TheReno wrote: I guess everyone quit x3

Well, probably with Thanksgiving coming up, people are rushing to get stuff done before the holidays, so IRL stuff comes first, you know?

I'm still going through all the entries myself.

At 11/18/09 04:47 PM, Pocru wrote: hey, was there a November contest? I dont remember seeing one...

thanks

I'm rather wondering this myself.

At 11/22/09 11:06 AM, bahamalama wrote:

At 11/18/09 04:47 PM, Pocru wrote: hey, was there a November contest? I dont remember seeing one...

thanks

I'm rather wondering this myself.

No, it isn't up. Gum said that it would be a 2 month long contest, but time is running short if he wants it to be.

He could at least give us the topic before making the actual thread.

I'm still here, and I've been through a fairly decent amount of entries.

Again, sorry about how long I'm taking. I have a bag of excuses as to why I'm taking so long, but I've never been very good at playing the violin. Your patience is appreciated to say the least.