Forum Topic: Is Autism failed evolution?

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Cojones893

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Posted at: 10/1/09 02:47 PM

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I've had this thought for a very long time. It appears that people who are inflicted/suffer/have autism are incredibly gifted in some fields. Now evolution doesn't always take the right steps. Sometimes a creature is born with a mutation that inhibits him/her from living properly and they die off, but if the mutation is good then it will grow and thrive spreading the gene.

Many sci-fi authors have written that the next step major step in human evolution will not be of the physical kind, growing wings/third eye/night vision, but of the brain (which I guess is still physical). Sure while children with autism seem to have problems with lack of communicating and other things, most excel at some field. Their brains work better than ours in math and pattern recognition.

If Autism is a failed evolution, is Asperger's Syndrome a thriving evolution?

It's believed that some of the greatest minds of all time probably suffered from Asperger's syndrome. Telsa, Einstein, and Newton to name a few. Thoughts?


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Tribalfusion-X

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Posted at: 10/1/09 02:48 PM

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It's a malfunction in the brains at the start of one's existence. The brain neglects certain things it should absorb, but absorbs others. This creates different thoughts for people with autism.

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Presidentjlh

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Posted at: 10/1/09 02:50 PM

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While I see your point, I don't think autism and Asperger's are genetic mutations that show where humanity is headed. They are more hinderances than they are benefits. I think that we should look at them not as mutations or examples of evolution, but as disorders that require treatment and care.


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Cojones893

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Posted at: 10/1/09 02:54 PM

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At 10/1/09 02:50 PM, Presidentjlh wrote: While I see your point, I don't think autism and Asperger's are genetic mutations that show where humanity is headed. They are more hinderances than they are benefits. I think that we should look at them not as mutations or examples of evolution, but as disorders that require treatment and care.

What is the root cause of a disorder? I think everything can be broken down to your genes. We just have linked everything together yet. Aspergers is called "high functioning autism". It doesn't hurt their lives they just seem 'odd'.


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Sheizenhammer

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Posted at: 10/1/09 02:57 PM

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If it is tied to genetics (while there is some evidence to suggest this, we don't know for certain yet), then it's hardly evolution. How many times have you seen an autistic person have kids? They might have incredible abilities (some of them anyway), but the defining feature of autism is a total lack of social skills, which are somewhat needed to secure a partner in the first place. Most of them have serious trouble with not flipping out as soon as anyone so much as touches them, let alone tries to have sex with them.

Asperger's is a different story, with most sufferers being normal enough to have a chance (however small) of breeding, but again, it's probably more of a hinderence than a help (and only a tiny minority of them have these so-called mental superpowers, making it nothing more than an illness most of the time).


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Presidentjlh

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Posted at: 10/1/09 03:00 PM

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At 10/1/09 02:54 PM, Cojones893 wrote:
At 10/1/09 02:50 PM, Presidentjlh wrote: While I see your point, I don't think autism and Asperger's are genetic mutations that show where humanity is headed. They are more hinderances than they are benefits. I think that we should look at them not as mutations or examples of evolution, but as disorders that require treatment and care.
What is the root cause of a disorder? I think everything can be broken down to your genes. We just have linked everything together yet. Aspergers is called "high functioning autism". It doesn't hurt their lives they just seem 'odd'.

I understand that Asperger's is not as inhibiting as autism, but it still has negative effects. It is hard for someone with Asperger's to empathize with others in everyday situations. Being that humans are a very social species, I find that trait of Asperger's to be particularly inhibiting.


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Cojones893

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Posted at: 10/1/09 03:03 PM

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At 10/1/09 02:57 PM, Sheizenhammer wrote: Asperger's is a different story, with most sufferers being normal enough to have a chance (however small) of breeding, but again, it's probably more of a hinderence than a help (and only a tiny minority of them have these so-called mental superpowers, making it nothing more than an illness most of the time).

"People with Asperger syndrome are often of average or above average intelligence and lead highly productive lives" - linky

I'm just saying I've met a pretty good amount of people with Asperger's and people who seem to have it. They have their strange habits, but they seem to be quite intelligent. The ones I did get to meet were going to school for disciplines like physics, programming, mathematics.

I guess by opening with my Autism theory it lead people off topic. I'm saying that Autism won't work as far as evolution goes, but it seems that Aspergers is a step in the right direction with evolution.


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BioEthanol

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Posted at: 10/1/09 03:10 PM

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I personally dont consider autism a disorder it is more of a character trait.

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Sheizenhammer

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Posted at: 10/1/09 03:12 PM

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At 10/1/09 03:03 PM, Cojones893 wrote: I guess by opening with my Autism theory it lead people off topic. I'm saying that Autism won't work as far as evolution goes, but it seems that Aspergers is a step in the right direction with evolution.

You're right in that Asperger's syndrome causes some benefits to the individual in-and-of-itself, BUT considering what it does to the average individual's chances of getting a girlfriend, and therefore their chances of passing on said traits, it's probably still an overall disadvantage.

I'm sure it has happened before, but evolution is all about probabilities. With the odds of producing offspring being considerably lowered by the stunted social skills, it's not likely to catch on and influence human evolution in general.

And this all assumes the genetic link being hereditary as well as completely proven, which we don't yet know. It could be purely genetic, but it could also be part-environmental as well (some developmental genes will only activate in certain conditions).


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ThoseSneakyFrench

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Posted at: 10/1/09 03:17 PM

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Autism isn't a disorder, it's a condition made up by phychs for parents who think they have unruly kids.


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UberCream

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Posted at: 10/1/09 03:20 PM

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Isn't autism caused by a lack of air during childbirth, and therefore, not based on genetics or evolution at all?


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Sheizenhammer

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Posted at: 10/1/09 03:23 PM

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At 10/1/09 03:17 PM, ThoseSneakyFrench wrote: Autism isn't a disorder, it's a condition made up by phychs for parents who think they have unruly kids.

That's ADHD / ADD you're thinking about there. Autism is completely different to both of them, in that it IS an incontrovertible developmental condition, and that it's much more serious. Most autistics can't even learn to talk, let alone sit in a classroom quietly.


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Cojones893

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Posted at: 10/1/09 03:27 PM

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At 10/1/09 03:20 PM, UberCream wrote: Isn't autism caused by a lack of air during childbirth, and therefore, not based on genetics or evolution at all?

Show proof, because I can find no science articles stating that point.


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Sammeh

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Posted at: 10/1/09 03:27 PM

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If there is any more evolutional progress to be made, it will be purely aesthetical.

Think about it, in order for evolution to progress a mutation must start.

Would you fuck a mutant and have mutant kids with them?

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camobch0

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Posted at: 10/1/09 03:28 PM

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At 10/1/09 02:50 PM, Presidentjlh wrote: While I see your point, I don't think autism and Asperger's are genetic mutations that show where humanity is headed. They are more hinderances than they are benefits. I think that we should look at them not as mutations or examples of evolution, but as disorders that require treatment and care.

Think if everyone had autism (or aspergers). There would be no kanye west, no scientology, no ahmadinijad. it would be fucking AWESOME.

How about we all just shut the fuck up?

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Cojones893

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Posted at: 10/1/09 03:34 PM

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At 10/1/09 03:27 PM, Sammeh wrote: If there is any more evolutional progress to be made, it will be purely aesthetical.

Think about it, in order for evolution to progress a mutation must start.

Would you fuck a mutant and have mutant kids with them?

Wow. You probably should not breed. Stupidity is worse than the worst mutation.


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GiantDouche

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At 10/1/09 03:28 PM, camobch0 wrote: Think if everyone had autism (or aspergers). There would be no kanye west, no scientology, no ahmadinijad. it would be fucking AWESOME.

Are you fucking stupid? Why would you want to be autistic?


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Rokas1337

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down syndrome is evolutions way of saying 'fuck you'


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ThoseSneakyFrench

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Posted at: 10/1/09 03:39 PM

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At 10/1/09 03:23 PM, Sheizenhammer wrote: Most autistics can't even learn to talk, let alone sit in a classroom quietly.

Then let me rephrase myself in a way that promotes constructive discussion. High-functioning autism is a joke. The criteria for it is so broad that it can't even be described as anything more than social quirks. I've been to 4 different psychs as a toddler, each arguing there was something wrong with me, but for a different reason. I've been "diagnosed" with ADD, ADHD, Asbergers, and Autism. I am technically a high-functioning autistic, only because that was the opinion of the last psychiatrist. If I were to go to another one, I'm sure I would be told I'm something different. The fact that these four conditions are so interchangeable in terms of symptoms just leads me to believe that none of them are credible disorders.

I am considered autistic. I do not have trouble talking to people. I do not have trouble looking them in the eye. I do not have trouble communicating verbally. I do not have trouble understanding body language. I do not have trouble making or maintaining friends. I have none of the main issues of autistics, and yet I still am. I blame this largely on inconclusive psychological testing, and the fact that autism is a disorder so broad every person can describe it differently and still be correct.


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InnerChild548

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At 10/1/09 03:27 PM, Sammeh wrote: If there is any more evolutional progress to be made, it will be purely aesthetical.

There is no such thing as aesthetic-al evolution. Because evolution is basically mutation. And society decides aesthetic as normal. And mutation will never equal normal. Therefore, mutation (evolution) will never be aesthetic.

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MultiCanimefan

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At 10/1/09 03:34 PM, Cojones893 wrote:
At 10/1/09 03:27 PM, Sammeh wrote:
Would you fuck a mutant and have mutant kids with them?

Our thumb is a mutation. Not every mutation is negative or involves some disfigurement.

Wow. You probably should not breed. Stupidity is worse than the worst mutation.

It's more ignorance than stupidity.

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Gedveikur

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They can be super good at something, but when it comes to others depending on the severity of the case then they will require a healthy individual to take care of them and help them do other stuff. So in an evolutionary matter the healthy individual would rather gain from it, he could obtain patents, copyright art and make money from the autistic guy.

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Sheizenhammer

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At 10/1/09 03:39 PM, ThoseSneakyFrench wrote: I am considered autistic. I do not have trouble talking to people. I do not have trouble looking them in the eye. I do not have trouble communicating verbally. I do not have trouble understanding body language. I do not have trouble making or maintaining friends. I have none of the main issues of autistics, and yet I still am. I blame this largely on inconclusive psychological testing, and the fact that autism is a disorder so broad every person can describe it differently and still be correct.

Oh I see; you're talking about people being stupid with the boundaries between each one, and the boundaries between normal and abnormal when it comes to diagnosing these things?

Yeah, I agree with you here. There's real autism / ADD / ADHD etc., and then there's 'technicality' autism. There's no real limit on where you draw the line between normal and not normal when it comes to psychological conditions, and some people like to take this to stupid levels (as I'm sure you already know, given your post).

As a general rule I like to go by: If you can understand the psychiatrist's diagnoses, you probably aren't autistic. You may be somewhere in that 'grey area' between normal and abnormal, but I don't see why being in a grey area is reason enough to label someone like that. If you can do all the things autistic people are said to be incapable of, then you probably aren't autistic. If the only thing you've got to go on is a piece of paper signed by someone who doesn't really know you, then I'd say it's not really worth trusting it. No-one can see through your eyes, lifetime experience of "autistic" kids or not.

I realy wish they'd make their damn minds up about what counts as which illness, and how 'not normal' you have to be to be classed as any of them, instead of just branding everyone who displays X amount of behavioural oddities as 'autistic'. I suppose, if you go down that road far enough, we're all insane in one way or another.


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ertysproductions

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The human mind is a complex organ that calculates much faster than the most computers and have a much more capasity. However, too many individual doesn't use this vital organ for the better of man.
However, people having Aspergers Syndrome or similar are like the next step in evolution the way their brains are more specialized and is used the right way. This is what people with Aspergers Syndrome are good at, just look at Einstein. He used his abilities to ask himself questions which he later answered. It helped the whole humanity to develope quantium physics.

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Gagsy

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You can't just skip evolution.

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Aigis

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At 10/1/09 03:27 PM, Sammeh wrote: Would you fuck a mutant and have mutant kids with them?

I'd fuck a girl with wings.

I move him with my thumbs. He needs my guidance, though I am not the only one.

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Bijhan

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At 10/1/09 02:57 PM, Sheizenhammer wrote: If it is tied to genetics (while there is some evidence to suggest this, we don't know for certain yet), then it's hardly evolution. How many times have you seen an autistic person have kids?

Alright you silly sausages. Dr. Bijhan is here to clear up your ludicrous concepts of evolution!

A) THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FAILED EVOLUTION
"Failed" means there was an attempt. There is nothing guiding evolution. Evolution IS NOT the appearance of mutations in the genetic pool. That's just mutation. Evolution is a force that operates upon those mutations. Remember, the theory of evolution vastly outdates the study of genetics, so they are not linked very closely. Evolution is simply the principle "That which will make more of itself will continue to make more of itself. That which cannot make more of itself will not make more of itself." Simple. Evolution is the principle that those which promote the repetition of their own memes - whether through alteration or conservation - will have their memetic data continued.

B) YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE KIDS YOURSELF TO PARTICIPATE IN EVOLUTION
The vast majority of individual ants do not have sex organs. They don't reproduce. The same is true of bees, termites, and naked mole rats. Even in many mammalian species there are those who are integral to the community but prohibited from procreating. In wolf packs only the alpha male and alpha female are allowed to mate. In human society we have developed a complex social construct known as homosexuality. But these individuals are not absent from the forces of evolution. Their memetic patterns (in biological terms, their genes) are present in other organisms. Worker ants ensure the survival of their own genes by serving the Queen, who CAN reproduce. Wolf packs will hunt and kill food for the Alpha puppies because they are closely related - perhaps cousins. And homosexual humans can provide for their brothers and sisters; nieces and nephews; and thanks to a wonderful human evolutionary advantage called "thinking", they can understand the service done to their species by raising another human child mostly unrelated to them. Evolution is still in action.

C) AUTISM IS NOT ADVERSELY ADAPTED
Autism is a complex condition. Rather simplified in the original post, it is NOT always coupled with "savant syndrome". Only a small percent of autistic people are very good at ANYTHING we can see. Some are. But again, most are not. Asperger's is controversial in that it is not well defined in the medical community. There is a clear dissonance between psychiatric medicine (medical doctors who specialize in your gray matter) and psychology (the non-medical study of human cognition) regarding the condition.

What's important to understand is that evolution depends on diversity. Genetically indiverse populations, such as agricultural bananas, have historically been subject to near extinction. When all of the species shares the same weaknesses, it can exploited all at once by another organism or operated upon by a natural calamity. Human beings have cloned so many bananas for industrial agriculture that when a parasite began eating our crops we nearly lost every commercial banana plant on the face of the Earth a few years back. We had to splice them with local, native varieties until a genetic resistance to the parasite was found.

What does this have to do with autism? Autism is a cognitive condition. It is not a DISorder, it is simply a DIFFERENT order. Autistic people percieve the world with a different basic set of symbols than most humans, and mostly different from one another. Carl Jung developed a theory of "collective subconscious" - that all humans understand certain symbols the same way. Dragons, heroes, doors, damsels in distress, check marks, stick figures - no matter who you are, what language you speak, what you've been taught, these things all mean the same thing to everyone. In our dreams and in our literature. People with autism are the exception. They do not understand this fundamental codec. We're all working on Windows, and people with autism have made their own OS that's incompatible.

This is positively adapted. We need this diversity in our population. Who knows when the weakness in our way of thinking will be undermined? I can't imagine how - but that's precisely the point, isn't it? We have no way of knowing what could possibly take advantage of our basic mode of thought and turn it against us. If we did, it couldn't. But something out there in the great big universe might. Something LITERALLY unimaginable. So we need some SERIOUSLY free thinkers. People with autism don't just think outside the box, they think of the box in a wholly different way, and it may save the human species some day.

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ratchetrockon

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Posted at: 10/1/09 04:16 PM

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My 10 year old brother has aspergers..He has an iq of 120 and he is very good at math..But he is very lazy..

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Bijhan

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At 10/1/09 03:27 PM, Sammeh wrote: If there is any more evolutional progress to be made, it will be purely aesthetical.

Think about it, in order for evolution to progress a mutation must start.

Would you fuck a mutant and have mutant kids with them?

Everyone already has you bizzarre, hairless, pink-skinned, big-headed, small-handed Gorilla. YOU ARE A MUTANT APE. And an ape is a mutant monkey... and a monkey is a mutant rat... and a rat is a mutant Pelycosaur... and a Pelycosaur is a mutant lizard... and a lizard is a mutant salamander.... and a salamander is a mutant fish... and a fish is a mutant worm... and a worm is a mutant endothermic colony... and an endothermic colony is a mutant single-celled organism... and a single-celled organism is just a self-repeating collection of chemicals!

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95688kage

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I personally dont think its real

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