Producing w/o proper monitors

[Mau5]

Hey guys,

I am producing (or attempting to produce anyway) house music on my laptop. I don't have any headphones, all I have to go by is the laptop speakers and my friend's surround sound system.

I can't get very much bass out of the laptop speakers or even hear the sidechaining. When I play the piece on the surround system the bass is tearing the house apart.

Could you tell me if this track: http://www.newgrounds. com/audio/listen/276153

- is too bass heavy
- has too much compression

I hope no one will call out advertising in this thread because that is not what I had in mind. I believe the audio forum is a place to seek help with one's production.

I put in a space in the link, so hopefully people will read the entire post instead of just leaving a link to the advertisements thread.

Thank you in advance for your help!

[Mau5]

Also, I would like to add if anyone is interested in collaborating with me (be it vocalists or producers) I am very interested.

I use only Reason 4 and Goldwave. I would appreciate if you have experience using the former.

[jarrydn]

At a guess, I'd say that you're pushing it pretty hard at 100hz and lower, but overall, you've done pretty well on the laptop speakers :)

I'd definitely suggest at least investing in a halfway decent set of headphones though.

[Mau5]

At 9/29/09 07:54 AM, jarrydn wrote: At a guess, I'd say that you're pushing it pretty hard at 100hz and lower, but overall, you've done pretty well on the laptop speakers :)

I'd definitely suggest at least investing in a halfway decent set of headphones though.

Thanks for your reply! Could you recommend a decent set of headphones suitable for music production?

[DJ-Rube]

At 9/29/09 08:21 AM, Mau5 wrote:

Thanks for your reply! Could you recommend a decent set of headphones suitable for music production?

SKULL CANDY

[MaestroRage]

At 9/29/09 10:25 AM, DJ-Rube wrote:

At 9/29/09 08:21 AM, Mau5 wrote:

Thanks for your reply! Could you recommend a decent set of headphones suitable for music production?

SKULL CANDY

no.

Sennheiser HD280 pro's are a cheap and effective solution. I used them for years before moving up.

[Phyrnna]

At 9/29/09 10:25 AM, DJ-Rube wrote:

At 9/29/09 08:21 AM, Mau5 wrote:

Thanks for your reply! Could you recommend a decent set of headphones suitable for music production?

SKULL CANDY

I repeat after Maestro. NO.

Skull Candies color and "sweeten" your audio sound making it inaccurate.

I use the Sennheiser H280's also. Cheap and work wonderfully.

[Back-From-Purgatory]

Obligatory Audio Advertisements thread link.

Sorry, someone had to do it simply because you mentioned it. <3

[Cross666]

I'm using KOSS headphones, without complaint.

[Mystery-Moon-Pie-Aud]

At 9/29/09 05:42 PM, HalcyonicFalconX wrote:

At 9/29/09 10:25 AM, DJ-Rube wrote:

At 9/29/09 08:21 AM, Mau5 wrote:

Thanks for your reply! Could you recommend a decent set of headphones suitable for music production?

SKULL CANDY

I repeat after Maestro. NO.

Skull Candies color and "sweeten" your audio sound making it inaccurate.

I use the Sennheiser H280's also. Cheap and work wonderfully.

To triple on that, no.

As said, Skull Candy's are just for eye candy, not ear candy. I've noticed with skullcandies that your frequencies are higher, so all your bass are belong to no one (the bass is poor). I guess they just amplify the higher frequencies, which makes it sound "clearer".

Sennheiser, as both said.

[TheBenjerman]

I use a pair of audio-technica's (ATH-M20) that I find very useful, but if you want something that is just plain true, I would go with any of Sony's "professional" line of headphones. The sennheiser's are pretty good, but of all the many monitor headphones I have used, the Sony's tend to be the most realistic.

[PeterSatera]

At 9/29/09 10:25 AM, DJ-Rube wrote:
SKULL CANDY

Skull Candy are reknown for colouring sound, if you want to produce something true you need a pair of flat response headphones.

At 9/29/09 10:56 AM, MaestroRage wrote:
no.

Sennheiser HD280 pro's are a cheap and effective solution. I used them for years before moving up.

As MaestroRage said. HD280pros. I have them aswell after searching for a shitload of reviews and and getting alot of opinions on it. They are without a doubt, a great choice for creating music. Look into them. As some have said, there are Just as good Sony's availble. :D

[InGenius]

Fifth for Senn's. I started with Senn HD201's, moved to the 280's and use the 201's for artist's monitoring when they are recording. But I don't like mixing anything on the 280's, really. I have never really trusted even the best studio cans for actual mixing, as I just don't think they can compare to near-fields with even a 4 inch woofer and 1 inch tweeter, let alone a set with a 6-8 inch driver and ribbons. I say go with Alesis, KRK, or another monitor manufacturer with a 5+inch woofer monitoring solution, and do your homework on the freq. response. You can deal with a slight bit of color or "glisten" in a freq range as long as you know about it and can mix around it, but mixing with something inferior like Skull Candy's is like playing piano with no hands. Sure, I bet someone, somewhere can do it...but should you cut your hands off and try it yourself?

[Krank]

At 9/30/09 06:03 PM, InGenius wrote: Fifth for Senn's. I started with Senn HD201's, moved to the 280's and use the 201's for artist's monitoring when they are recording. But I don't like mixing anything on the 280's, really. I have never really trusted even the best studio cans for actual mixing, as I just don't think they can compare to near-fields with even a 4 inch woofer and 1 inch tweeter, let alone a set with a 6-8 inch driver and ribbons. I say go with Alesis, KRK, or another monitor manufacturer with a 5+inch woofer monitoring solution, and do your homework on the freq. response. You can deal with a slight bit of color or "glisten" in a freq range as long as you know about it and can mix around it, but mixing with something inferior like Skull Candy's is like playing piano with no hands. Sure, I bet someone, somewhere can do it...but should you cut your hands off and try it yourself?

Skull candies are what you listen to your song AFTER youve mixed it down becuase the disco smile is a very popular sound in many consumer electronics, and you can get a gauge how it sounds on a disco smiled system

[InGenius]

At 9/30/09 06:16 PM, Bjra wrote: Skull candies are what you listen to your song AFTER youve mixed it down becuase the disco smile is a very popular sound in many consumer electronics, and you can get a gauge how it sounds on a disco smiled system

Sir, I listen to my mixes on the 5.1 surround Sony with the 10" sub in the living room. I could not care less if it's smiling, frowning, discoing or funkadelicing. But I do not need Skullcandys to see if my music will sound good on consumer electronics because if it's sounds "good" on monitors, it will sound "great" on everything else. And if it sounds "great" on monitors, it will sound "fucking magical" on everything else. And if, by some chance, it sounds "fucking magical" on monitors, I will declare myself the Pope of Music because it will sound "Godly" on everything else and you, sir, will worship me.

[poopr1221]

At 9/30/09 06:28 PM, InGenius wrote:

At 9/30/09 06:16 PM, Bjra wrote: Skull candies are what you listen to your song AFTER youve mixed it down becuase the disco smile is a very popular sound in many consumer electronics, and you can get a gauge how it sounds on a disco smiled system

Sir, I listen to my mixes on the 5.1 surround Sony with the 10" sub in the living room. I could not care less if it's smiling, frowning, discoing or funkadelicing. But I do not need Skullcandys to see if my music will sound good on consumer electronics because if it's sounds "good" on monitors, it will sound "great" on everything else. And if it sounds "great" on monitors, it will sound "fucking magical" on everything else. And if, by some chance, it sounds "fucking magical" on monitors, I will declare myself the Pope of Music because it will sound "Godly" on everything else and you, sir, will worship me.

Not always true. Not all consumer level speakers and headphones are equal. Some may be lacking a low end. Some may lack a high end, or mids. And if one of the main elements of your song takes place in the low end, and they can't hear it that well, it's going to sound flat to them.

[InGenius]

At 9/30/09 07:01 PM, poopr1221 wrote: Not always true. Not all consumer level speakers and headphones are equal. Some may be lacking a low end. Some may lack a high end, or mids. And if one of the main elements of your song takes place in the low end, and they can't hear it that well, it's going to sound flat to them.

No one can mix a track that sounds good on systems missing an entire frequency band (ie. low, mid or high). If you do, it's because you specifically mixed for that system and now your track will sound bad on all systems that aren't missing that band. While there are engineers who mix for specific releases from "club" environment with pounding lows and clear mids, to low bit-rate mp3 mixes preparing for thin lows and piercing highs after dither, I mix tracks with average consumer in mind and if I need a re-mixed version later, then I will tackle that monster when the time comes. It's stupid to mix any track for the narrowest of possibilities without an incentive to do so.

[poopr1221]

At 9/30/09 07:13 PM, InGenius wrote:

At 9/30/09 07:01 PM, poopr1221 wrote: Not always true. Not all consumer level speakers and headphones are equal. Some may be lacking a low end. Some may lack a high end, or mids. And if one of the main elements of your song takes place in the low end, and they can't hear it that well, it's going to sound flat to them.

No one can mix a track that sounds good on systems missing an entire frequency band (ie. low, mid or high). If you do, it's because you specifically mixed for that system and now your track will sound bad on all systems that aren't missing that band. While there are engineers who mix for specific releases from "club" environment with pounding lows and clear mids, to low bit-rate mp3 mixes preparing for thin lows and piercing highs after dither, I mix tracks with average consumer in mind and if I need a re-mixed version later, then I will tackle that monster when the time comes. It's stupid to mix any track for the narrowest of possibilities without an incentive to do so.

I really should rephrase that statement. MOST consumer level speakers/headphones have some sort of frequency problem. Now, that's not to say that they're missing it, but that it's nowhere near as clear as other frequencies, and this could pose a problem in how a track is viewed. I'm also NOT telling you to change your mastering method. I agree, you should master so that your track is suitable for both studio monitors and consumer level speakers and headphones, but you should definitely keep the consumer level flaws in mind. You might also want to know your audience. If you produce dance/trance/whatever electronic mainstream genre you produce, your track is going to be heard by more people, because let's face it, dance music is really popular. Now if you produce something more underground/misunderstood/ what have you like breakcore, I would say that an avid listener of those underground genres would be more critical of the sound (to an extent) and listen for certain elements in the song. Because of this, I would assume that more of those types of listeners would use a slightly better system than the consumer norm. But that's just an opinion really.

Tl;dr-Keep your mastering methods, but make sure you take all factors into account that affect how your track is listened to.

[nathanallenpinard]

OP:

Your bass is a bit heavy compared to other parts. Either cut out the 150-200 hz area a bit, or turn down the bass drum overall about 3db (that's just a guess) or both. It hits hard, and not too hard, but it drowns out a few other things. I think it's a bit hard for a normal club settings, considering they boost everything.

To the other comments:

It's important for studio to have a variety of great, good, and crappy speakers, including headphones to be able to mix effectively. Mainly because when you mix on a grand set of studio speakers, the lower frequencies don't show up as much on others. At this point, the engineer can add some high freq bass harmonics that are universal with crap systems.

[SymbolCymbal]

well that submission sounds great on my laptop speakers. if i were you i would get some head phones.

OMG i love deadmau5

[InGenius]

At 9/30/09 09:44 PM, nathanallenpinard wrote: To the other comments:

It's important for studio to have a variety of great, good, and crappy speakers, including headphones to be able to mix effectively. Mainly because when you mix on a grand set of studio speakers, the lower frequencies don't show up as much on others. At this point, the engineer can add some high freq bass harmonics that are universal with crap systems.

I am not denying that you can and should reference your mix on other speakers, but my position is that you shouldn't mix on headphones. But once you reference the mix on the 2.1 in your living room, the crappy 85 Oldsmobile you've got parked out front, the brand new 5.1 surround sound your buddy put into his man-cave, etc., you can go back and re-evaluate some mixing choices, ie. add in those harmonics if the majority of systems referenced on needed it. But if you mixed it well the first time around the vast majority of systems will sound just fine if not better than your monitors because:

Most sound system manufacturers build their systems to compensate for the frequencies they are weakest in naturally. So, if you noticed, those crappy little Logitech speakers on your desktop "sweeten" the low-mids to make up for any bass they are missing, and if you mixed properly the first time around, you definitely didn't leave a gap in the low-mids to begin with. Same goes for most consumer electronics made after the 1970's (and alot made before too).

Personally, my laptop speakers are horrid little beasts that are on the front lip of the keyboard, pointed directly down into the gell cushion on the ever-present lapdesk the laptop is on if it's not in the studio. So the sound is muffled, sickly thin, and not even the least bit awe inspiring. That said, most music sounds just fine on them, as good as a sane and rational person should expect from crappy speakers. Which is why I don't mix to please the few insane, irrational people who might expect Bose quality sound from Dell laptop speakers.

And I will not clutter my mix up with unneeded, muddy upper harmonics on bass or mid-strengthening harmonics or any other harmonic exciter junk simply because, and I'm going to borrow some British slang here, "some scrote gets narked at 'is speakers cuz the chav ain't got the quid to spend on some new bobbins and rather than bash on, he chooses to bodge up a cack-handed letter and cock a snook at this Yank for not muddying up his mix". No thank you.

I love British slang.

[nathanallenpinard]

The harmonics if done right, don't muddy up the mix. It's almost transparent in the studio.

[InGenius]

You are right of course, I wasn't actually trying to dissuade anyone from that method, I just don't really want to chance it or put any more time and money into a mix so that someone who hasn't put any money at all into their own listening setup can benefit. I am of the mind that if you can't afford the 19.99$ Logitech speakers and are using horribly inferior sound sources, you probably didn't buy my music and I didn't make any money off of you, so why exactly am I spending the time, which is money, to tweak sub- or super-harmonics on bass to appease you? It's merely my way of thinking.