NG revenue

[linc186]

im making a game, but I don't want to split the revenue with anybody, so I don't want to use music for the audio portal. Should i use real music from bands? (im horrible with FL studio...lol) any suggestions on what I can do?

[TMM43]

Well you can...

But if you were to share revenue with an audio artist, they would only get a small fraction.

[jarrydn]

At 9/21/09 11:02 PM, linc186 wrote: im making a game, but I don't want to split the revenue with anybody, so I don't want to use music for the audio portal. Should i use real music from bands?

Sure, use music from bands if you want an even bigger chunk of your revenue taken ;)

[DSMagnum]

You can always try and make your own music. That can be difficult though. If you want to use an audio artist's music without giving them a portion of the revenue, you can contact them and discuss it with them personally. I'm sure some won't mind.

There are also a lot of inactive users who probably wouldn't even notice if you did this. Still, you should try and contact them.

[loansindi]

At 9/22/09 12:20 AM, DSMagnum wrote: There are also a lot of inactive users who probably wouldn't even notice if you did this.

That doesn't make it any more legal.

[InGenius]

I am starting a company. I don't want to pay workers, can I find a place to buy slaves?

Different question, same inability to understand the true definition of "greed". Using copy written music is "supposed" to mean you can't make money off your flash. I don't think there's much real policing of this on NG, though. But that's why we have the Audio Portal. There are thousands of artists who are struggling just as much as the flash artists and would be MORE than willing to come to some understanding, maybe even asking for nothing more than recognition. Too bad this view of "It's mine, I don't want to share" proliferates amongst flash developers so deeply. My music took time, your flash took time, I think we both deserve some pay if there is money made from the end result. My opinion and also the opinion of most civil courts.

[DSMagnum]

At 9/22/09 12:40 AM, loansindi wrote:

At 9/22/09 12:20 AM, DSMagnum wrote: There are also a lot of inactive users who probably wouldn't even notice if you did this.

That doesn't make it any more legal.

It's not illegal to not give them money in the first place. You don't have to share the revenue. It's just suggested.

And I did note that they should still contact the users.

[loansindi]

At 9/22/09 12:44 AM, DSMagnum wrote: It's not illegal to not give them money in the first place. You don't have to share the revenue. It's just suggested.

false false false false.

If you use any of the shit published on NG, which is released under a non-commercial creative commons license, and you make money, then it's illegal. Because you're breaking the terms of that copyright.

which is, you know, illegal.

[Trypno]

The fact is, alot of artists here on the AP will be more than willing to allow you to use their music, and all they ask for in return (which also happens to be part of the terms of the non-commercial agreement) is recognition that they made the music.

But of course I don't think you're gonna get very far amongst AP artists here by saying, "I don't want to share revenue with any audio artist." You're basically saying that you don't want to share anything with the person providing you music. So just as a tip, I don't think it's a good idea to come into the Audio forum and completely alienating all the AP artists by telling them you don't want to share any recognition, and then turn around and ask for tips on what to do.
I would have been happy to let you use some of my audio, for nothing more than recognition, but you certainly didn't win me over with that comment.

[Darren-M]

well exposure is worth something even if there is no money!

not that i have given permission or anything but i might consider it if approached the right way and told the conditions

[linc186]

At 9/22/09 12:44 AM, InGenius wrote: I am starting a company. I don't want to pay workers, can I find a place to buy slaves?

Different question, same inability to understand the true definition of "greed". Using copy written music is "supposed" to mean you can't make money off your flash. I don't think there's much real policing of this on NG, though. But that's why we have the Audio Portal. There are thousands of artists who are struggling just as much as the flash artists and would be MORE than willing to come to some understanding, maybe even asking for nothing more than recognition. Too bad this view of "It's mine, I don't want to share" proliferates amongst flash developers so deeply. My music took time, your flash took time, I think we both deserve some pay if there is money made from the end result. My opinion and also the opinion of most civil courts.

Dude, the NG licence says yuo can use audio artists's work freely-but if you use it for commercial uses, you have to give them a fraction of the revenue or talk to the author about not giving him any revenue at all...

[loansindi]

At 9/22/09 01:50 AM, linc186 wrote: Dude, the NG licence says yuo can use audio artists's work freely-but if you use it for commercial uses, you have to give them a fraction of the revenue or talk to the author about not giving him any revenue at all...

Actually the license, as stated, doesn't allow for commercial use, period. Even if you share it with the author. You really, as far as the wording of the license goes, MUST contact the author regarding any revenue creating use.

[LK412]

At 9/22/09 01:52 AM, loansindi wrote:

At 9/22/09 01:50 AM, linc186 wrote: Dude, the NG licence says yuo can use audio artists's work freely-but if you use it for commercial uses, you have to give them a fraction of the revenue or talk to the author about not giving him any revenue at all...

Actually the license, as stated, doesn't allow for commercial use, period. Even if you share it with the author. You really, as far as the wording of the license goes, MUST contact the author regarding any revenue creating use.

I doubt this is true, and if it is then no one is enforcing it. Cuz i never got shit from a game thot got Daily 3rd.

And the besides the Revenue is from NG not some MMORPG company.

[loansindi]

At 9/22/09 02:39 AM, LK412 wrote: I doubt this is true,

What the fuck are you doubting?

and if it is then no one is enforcing it.

No fucking shit. This is one of the biggest complaints on the AP

Cuz i never got shit from a game thot got Daily 3rd.

Make some fucking noise.

And the besides the Revenue is from NG not some MMORPG company.

What does this have to do with anything?

Attribution: You must give credit to the artist. Noncommercial: You may not use this work for commercial purposes unless you make specific arrangements with the artist under another license. Share Alike: If you alter, transform, or build upon this music, you may distribute the resulting creation only under a license identical to this one.

This is very fucking cut and dry to me.

[Gloudas]

Think about it this way. The flash author is essentially making revenue off of their product, which is the flash game. Now, if certain components of the product, namely the music, were made by other people, then certain portions of the revenue deserve to be given to the author of the music.

It's as simple as that. No matter how well designed a game is, if music is used, then the game's success is partially a result of that song. To suggest that a flash author deserves all the money when an outside song has helped contribute to the success of the game is just absurd.

[Back-From-Purgatory]

Let's put this in terms the OP can understand.

For this example, I'm gonna assume you use Metallica's music for your flash.

You make a flash, you use Metallica's music in said flash, your flash makes money, Metallica sues you. Why? Because you are making money off of something you did not in fact make. Doesn't matter if it's a small little 10 second "Oops I did it again" clip with a stick man knocking over a vase... If you profit off it using Metallica's music, without making prior agreement with them, you go to court.

The same is true of musicians on the AP. Get their consent, work out a deal. If you just make a flash and slap someone's music on it without their consent, and you make money off of it, that musician has the right to take legal action against you.

Using someone elses work and making money off of it is stealing, no matter how famous they are, no matter how small your project. If you're going to use someones music, work out some kind of deal. The worst that could happen is they say no, and you look for another musician. If you don't work out a deal and just use it behind their back, the worst that could happen is you go to court for theft.

[Back-From-Purgatory]

At 9/22/09 01:50 AM, linc186 wrote:

At 9/22/09 12:44 AM, InGenius wrote: I am starting a company. I don't want to pay workers, can I find a place to buy slaves?

Different question, same inability to understand the true definition of "greed". Using copy written music is "supposed" to mean you can't make money off your flash. I don't think there's much real policing of this on NG, though. But that's why we have the Audio Portal. There are thousands of artists who are struggling just as much as the flash artists and would be MORE than willing to come to some understanding, maybe even asking for nothing more than recognition. Too bad this view of "It's mine, I don't want to share" proliferates amongst flash developers so deeply. My music took time, your flash took time, I think we both deserve some pay if there is money made from the end result. My opinion and also the opinion of most civil courts.

Dude, the NG licence says yuo can use audio artists's work freely-but if you use it for commercial uses, you have to give them a fraction of the revenue or talk to the author about not giving him any revenue at all...

And just to be clear here... You can use audio artists work freely, for non-commercial uses ONLY. The second you make a penny, it is a commercial project, and if the artist wants a cut of the cash, you have to give it to them, or not use their music. You can't just tell them, "I'm gonna make money off your music but not give you a cut."

If they don't agree to it, you don't use it.

[DSMagnum]

At 9/22/09 03:05 AM, loansindi wrote: Noncommercial: You may not use this work for commercial purposes unless you make specific arrangements with the artist under another license.

Submitting flash to Newgrounds isn't a commercial purpose.

Also, if you read the top of the audio submit page it says this:

Every day, over 100 new Flash submissions are uploaded to Newgrounds. These aspiring artists need good, royalty-free music for their games and movies.

By uploading your own creations, you are providing an invaluable service to Flash authors worldwide. Your loops and music will enter the "NG public domain", meaning anyone is welcome to use your audio in their Flash creations free of charge.

I don't know what else to say.

[loansindi]

At 9/22/09 09:15 AM, DSMagnum wrote:

At 9/22/09 03:05 AM, loansindi wrote: Noncommercial: You may not use this work for commercial purposes unless you make specific arrangements with the artist under another license.

Submitting flash to Newgrounds isn't a commercial purpose.

So when someone makes money off of something... what do you call that?

Every day, over 100 new Flash submissions are uploaded to Newgrounds. These aspiring artists need good, royalty-free music for their games and movies.

Yeah. That's fine, but I think that was written before the flash ads system was rampant.

By uploading your own creations, you are providing an invaluable service to Flash authors worldwide. Your loops and music will enter the "NG public domain", meaning anyone is welcome to use your audio in their Flash creations free of charge.

Except it's not 'public domain', not at all. The work remains the property of the author, and based on the license, it's only 'royalty-free' so long as the project doesn't make any money. If someone uses something I created and makes money with the project, you bet your ass I would expect them to acknowledge that.

[linc186]

Yeah. That's fine, but I think that was written before the flash ads system was rampant.

Not necessarily, websites are required by law to update their website's user agreement every year, because of any new features they have. Theres bound to be something there about flash ads.

[loansindi]

At 9/22/09 10:21 AM, linc186 wrote:

Yeah. That's fine, but I think that was written before the flash ads system was rampant.

Not necessarily, websites are required by law to update their website's user agreement every year, because of any new features they have. Theres bound to be something there about flash ads.

NG's TOS has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

[MaestroRage]

I don't know why you guys are fighting loan so hard here. He's right, the audio license forbids commercial use.

OP will be breaking the law by using even AP songs.

And the TOS, EVEN if it's not been updated it doesn't mean shit, the official license under which the song downloaded takes priority. The TOS can say all songs you upload are now public domain but so long as you DOWNLOAD the file under the CC license, it is under CC jurisdiction.

As for that opening comment, i'm glad I don't have my material up right now, hell if i'd give you shit after an opener like that. What would you say if an audio author asks you to make a flash video for their song but "doesn't want to share the revenue" after? You'd get mighty pissed i'm sure. Grow some balls and drop the greed.

[LK412]

If you guys are right, and that every artist gets a cut of the revenue, then why the hell did Tom make this shitty system. How did he not realize that if the flash maker is getting money, then the revenue HAS to be split with the audio artist.

He said you can choose if you want to split the money.

Loan i think you should write a well written PM or Email to Tom. Like a petition or something.

Im not sure if it will work, but from what Maestro and Loan told me, this is complete bullshit.

I want mah m0nieZ D:<

[Back-From-Purgatory]

At 9/22/09 12:18 PM, LK412 wrote: If you guys are right, and that every artist gets a cut of the revenue, then why the hell did Tom make this shitty system. How did he not realize that if the flash maker is getting money, then the revenue HAS to be split with the audio artist.

He said you can choose if you want to split the money.

Loan i think you should write a well written PM or Email to Tom. Like a petition or something.

Im not sure if it will work, but from what Maestro and Loan told me, this is complete bullshit.

I want mah m0nieZ D:<

You can choose not to split the money in the event you (Flash artist) and the musician work out an arrangement in which the flash artist is getting all the revenue.

The fact that you can hog all the cash does not mean you can do it without consent and get away with it.

Like I said before, you use someones music without their consent, without giving them a cut, and they feel it's necessary, you'll go to court. Stealing is stealing, no matter how you color it.

[loansindi]

At 9/22/09 02:57 PM, Back-From-Purgatory wrote: Like I said before, you use someones music without their consent, without giving them a cut, and they feel it's necessary, you'll go to court. Stealing is stealing, no matter how you color it.

The trouble is, newgrounds is basically an open system. You can add whatever music you like to your flash without any kind of regulation. That, coupled with the many dozens of submissions a day, coupled with the additional fact that basically every flash submitted takes advantage of the flash ads system, makes policing this behavior basically an insurmountable task.

Which is bullshit, but it's also worth considering the relatively small sums of money involved in 95% of newground's submissions.

[linc186]

Which is bullshit, but it's also worth considering the relatively small sums of money involved in 95% of newground's submissions.

thats because 95% on NG's submissions suck.

[loansindi]

At 9/22/09 08:54 PM, linc186 wrote: thats because 95% on NG's submissions suck.

It's more like a signal to noise ration. There's a lot of really wonderful stuff that never gets frontpaged or awarded, I'm sure. It's just buried in waves of shit.

[linc186]

At 9/22/09 09:01 PM, loansindi wrote:

At 9/22/09 08:54 PM, linc186 wrote: thats because 95% on NG's submissions suck.

It's more like a signal to noise ration. There's a lot of really wonderful stuff that never gets frontpaged or awarded, I'm sure. It's just buried in waves of shit.

true....lol.

[Rawmin]

At 9/22/09 09:15 AM, DSMagnum wrote:

At 9/22/09 03:05 AM, loansindi wrote: Noncommercial: You may not use this work for commercial purposes unless you make specific arrangements with the artist under another license.

Submitting flash to Newgrounds isn't a commercial purpose.

I know we've moved on from here, but I have to say, that statement is bullshit. If you submit to newgrounds without ad revenue, then its not a commercial purpose.

BUt...

Submit it with ad revenue, and you bet your ass it becomes a commercial purpose. Thats the very definition of a commercial purpose, submitting something in order to make money. And this type of submission is exactly what the thread is about.

[DSMagnum]

Maybe we should get revenue mods. Or when people type in what songs they use for a song, automatically give a percent of the ad money to the person who made each song.