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Atoms are only predictable in a limited way. For example, we can find an electron around a particular atom 90% of the time. The other 10% we have no idea what the fuck happened to it. That's just one example. Who knows? Maybe its in another dimension that other 10%.

Also, for those who don't know enough about the Big Bang Theory, it does not say "something came from nothing", the idea is that there was a super-compact piece of mass in a nothingless space. It became even denser and denser all the time, and therefore hotter (with friction between atoms), and because of this heat, eventually exploded into our universe.

Seriously, don't post about theories if you haven't the slightest idea of what they say.

At 9/17/09 12:14 AM, carnivoracious wrote: Crap, I think I just became an existentialist.

Apathetic/pragmatic agnostic existentialist here :)

Any AP Physics book, one of the last chapters? The uncertainty principle?

This belongs in the Philosophy club Socrates.

That doesn't make sense. First of all no one KNOWS how the universe started. That's just one of the theories. Also atoms aren't bouncing off each other. And how would that decide what we do? You need to learn basic science and biology. Learn how the brain works.

Just out of curiousity, how many people in this thread just played Time Fcuk (to mods: the game on the front page, not trying to get banned)?

On topic: While people seem to have some misapprehensions about what the big bang theory actually says, even more seem to have a misapprehension of the meaning of the word theory.

A theory in the scientific sense is "the best explanation for a given natural phenomenon based on scientific data," (thanks, Webster's Dictionary)

Most folks that don't like a given theory say that it's "just a theory," however, those folks are using the word theory in the literary sense, basically just an educated guess. See the difference?

What burns me up isn't the trivialization of scientific study. Nor is it the insensitivity to the beliefs of others in the pursuit of scientific truth, I've long since given up hope that either side is convincable or even ameniable to the other. What irks is the utter disregard for the mechanics of the English language.

Seriously if we went around freely exchanging the definitions of words that have multiple definitions we would still be chasing our refridgerators (because they're "running"). One cannot overstate the importance of proper grammar.

Actually, there is now evidence that suggests we may be in for a "big stretch" since we see the universe expansion accelerating and different parts of the universe are moving at different speeds then other parts. So We still have free will we aren't a bunch of atoms banging together because that wasn't how the universe started.

At 9/17/09 01:51 AM, carnivoracious wrote: Just out of curiousity, how many people in this thread just played Time Fcuk (to mods: the game on the front page, not trying to get banned)?

I actually stumbled upon this thread after pausing the Time Fcuk for a bit of a "general" break. I also noted the creepy coincidence :P

At 9/16/09 09:52 PM, sam144boy wrote: So the big bang happens, atoms bounce off of atoms and stars are made. It was just chemical reactions that formed the universe, what we are today. All the thoughts in our head, they are just the continuing reactions of that first chemical reaction. Everything we think or do is just the result of atoms bouncing off each other in our head in a predictable manner. We have no choices, we may think we do, but the choice has been made already billions of years ago. So do we really have free will?

So by your reasoning, everything has been predetermined, even though we are able to consciously think of choices and possible consequences. I firmly believe in free will, both as an intellectual and as a Catholic.

From what I understand of what I've read about Free Will experiments, they were all applied to movements of the body, none of them explain thoughts. And it only begs the questions, what about thoughts? What makes them go? We are able to make desicions through thoughts, and then carry out actions based on those desicions. Was that action predetermined? And how so?

I'm simply not convinced by this "no free will" arguement yet.

At 9/17/09 02:31 AM, Yhtomit wrote: From what I understand of what I've read about Free Will experiments, they were all applied to movements of the body, none of them explain thoughts. And it only begs the questions, what about thoughts? What makes them go? We are able to make desicions through thoughts, and then carry out actions based on those desicions. Was that action predetermined? And how so?

I'm simply not convinced by this "no free will" arguement yet.

The concept of the mind and consciousness disproves the idea that free will does not exist in my mind, because the idea that even our thoughts would be pre-determined (right down to this very post) seems so confusingly complex that a simple use of Occam's Razor explains it is in many ways contradicting itself.

Don't quote Webster.

This entire thought occured to me last week.

i got into this same conversation with a friend of mine and he being religious brought up the notion of having a soul and that granting humans free will.

i lean more towards the determinism theory but i could see where his idea would make sense (his examples were animals driven by instincts rather than actual thoughts and contemplations etc) in other words to him the human conscious is in fact the soul. but anyway i do think that humans do not have free will in a sense that everything we do, think etc is driven by chemical and electrical reactions from our environment and inner workings, but i dont think that gives anybody an excuse to do whatever they want just to get away with it, but what if that attitude would be nothing more than a chemical and electrical....ugh im gonna stop the said conversation i had was like 3 or 4 hours long and i dont wanna keep going in circles .

Thanks for making me think outside of school.

Of course not. The Big Bang never happened.

Confusing philosaphy is confusing....

At 9/16/09 09:52 PM, sam144boy wrote: All the thoughts in our head, they are just the continuing reactions of that first chemical reaction.?

Okay let's say the big bang theory is true and everything can trace its way back along this chain of atomic and chemical reactions that doesn't mean by definition everything is preordained and the course of the chain of events cant be changed.

Free Will is a man made term to describe our ability to make our own choices in life. Of course we have free will, not everyone is the exact same. If we had no free will we'd all be the same. once again, THINK BEFORE TRYING TO COME OFF SMART YOU COME OFF DUMB

At 9/17/09 07:56 AM, Aci6 wrote: Free Will is a man made term to describe our ability to make our own choices in life. Of course we have free will, not everyone is the exact same. If we had no free will we'd all be the same. once again, THINK BEFORE TRYING TO COME OFF SMART YOU COME OFF DUMB

i think what the OP meant (or what i was thinking at least) wasnt that everything you do is pre destined thus having no free will, but everything that you do is caused by chemical and electrical reactions that started from the big bang (the big bang because theory says thats where it starts) every decision every move every everything that you do is just based endless factors around you not "destiny"

When we think we have no free will, aren't we just thinking we are? And we're just thinking we're just thinking we are? therefore thought does not exist. This is all just what our brain is making of everything. Nothing exists.

To have free will you must have battle yourself ;P

At 9/16/09 09:52 PM, sam144boy wrote: So the big bang happens, atoms bounce off of atoms and stars are made. It was just chemical reactions that formed the universe, what we are today. All the thoughts in our head, they are just the continuing reactions of that first chemical reaction. Everything we think or do is just the result of atoms bouncing off each other in our head in a predictable manner. We have no choices, we may think we do, but the choice has been made already billions of years ago. So do we really have free will?

Wow, that's my theory bitch! So you think you can go around on the internet and post what others said and not credit them?

....penis?

We can choose to do what ever we want, if i wanted to kick you in the nuts i would, but i choose not to do so.

Who cares? It feels like we have free will, so whether or not we actually do doesn't matter, and seeing as we can't prove either way, it's an even more pointless argument than "Is God real?"

At 9/16/09 10:17 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote: stuff

Every time I see your signature I get hungry.

At 9/16/09 09:55 PM, sam144boy wrote: Also if we could make a supercomputer that simulates the big bang and every atom in the universe, theoretically we could predict the future, right?
Fuck dude im high

yep, but we have to give it all the data in the universe at the time of the big bang to make it work, so its impossible, but good thinking

At 9/17/09 02:02 PM, robin1232 wrote:

At 9/16/09 09:55 PM, sam144boy wrote: Also if we could make a supercomputer that simulates the big bang and every atom in the universe, theoretically we could predict the future, right?
Fuck dude im high

yep, but we have to give it all the data in the universe at the time of the big bang to make it work, so its impossible, but good thinking

oh, wait, thats not true, there's something called the chaos theory wich states not everything is predictable, so both your theory and the OP's theory aren't true

At 9/17/09 02:04 PM, robin1232 wrote: oh, wait, thats not true, there's something called the chaos theory wich states not everything is predictable, so both your theory and the OP's theory aren't true

Before you go linking wiki pages to back you up, I implore you to read them first. Even reading the first paragraph would have stopped you from looking like an idiot:

"Chaos theory is a branch of mathematics which studies the behavior of certain dynamical systems that may be highly sensitive to initial conditions. This sensitivity is popularly referred to as the butterfly effect. As a result of this sensitivity, which manifests itself as an exponential growth of error, the behavior of chaotic systems appears to be random. That is, tiny differences in the starting state of the system can lead to enormous differences in the final state of the system even over fairly small timescales. This gives the impression that the system is behaving randomly. This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future dynamics are fully determined by their initial conditions with no random elements involved. This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos."