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Are you ashamed of the word God? Remember that song, from Sunday school?
This little light of mine, I’m gonna let it shine.
Hide it under a bushe, NO! I’m gonna let it shine... let it shine let it shine, let it shine.

If you believe in God, use his name, and when you use it, let it bring you closer to his glory.

At 4/2/04 02:30 AM, Lyddiechu wrote: Just a quick question to everyone here:

do you think that a belief in g-d equals a belief in the afterlife and g-d's overbearing influence in our lives? does he have to have been our creator, or could he have been creating along with the rest of us?

Certainly not. The proper term for this is "agnostic," which means, roughly, that you believe that there is a greater power out there, but you do not feel that you need/can worship him as he either doesn't care, thus the need half, or is unknowable, thus the can half. I love seeing questions of faith, christian or otherwise, being discussed on here with civility. Good job to those who are constructive.

At 4/1/04 10:05 PM, Dr_Arbitrary wrote: Atheism is quite a bit further, as it says that the existence of God is definitely not true...

I'll have to disagree with you there. From what I've read, that's only one kind of atheism-- Strong Atheism, if I remember correctly.

People often say things like "It's impossible to prove or disprove religion." I ask, "Prove it."

That's... awesome. What kind of response does that get?

Fuck already. Will you guys just give it up?

You've spent pages debating allsorts of crazy shit and you haven't changed ANYBODY'S opinion, only shared a few facts with other people.

This is a little something I thought up:

'Religion is much like pi, you'll never know the full answer so why waste your time trying to get closer to it?'

I'll live my life how I please and when I die I will find out what I am meant to find out. None of you really know anything when you think about it so just stop wasting your time on this Earth debating about such petty subjects.

At 4/2/04 02:52 AM, Dr_Arbitrary wrote: Are you ashamed of the word God? Remember that song, from Sunday school?
This little light of mine, I’m gonna let it shine.
Hide it under a bushe, NO! I’m gonna let it shine... let it shine let it shine, let it shine.

If you believe in God, use his name, and when you use it, let it bring you closer to his glory.

no, I'm not ashamed of his name. however, I write G-d in accordane with the jewish tradition, as we consider his name to be too holy to write. its a long and involved explanation, i don't want to get into it and bore anyone. if you must go and look in the jewish virtual library

At 4/2/04 01:11 PM, ohp-kyle wrote:

I'll have to disagree with you there. From what I've read, that's only one kind of atheism-- Strong Atheism, if I remember correctly.

Would you please explain what Strong Atheism does say about God, I was really pretty sure that it says that God definitely does not exist.

People often say things like "It's impossible to prove or disprove religion." I ask, "Prove it."

That's... awesome. What kind of response does that get?

I think you're the first person that's acknowledged it, most people either don't understand it, or won't answer it, as it shows a fundamental flaw in their beliefs.

I like making one-liners that defeat other popular one-liners, but I really try to make my one-liners logically consistent. One thing some people sometimes quote is "You can never be perfectly certain of anything" I ask, "Are you certain of that?"

I don't really mind actual argument, but when people try to use prepackaged lines like that, they skip an important step in the argument process, and instead of focusing on determining the better position, they focus on winning.

At 4/2/04 01:48 PM, Lyddiechu wrote: no, I'm not ashamed of his name. however, I write G-d in accordane with the jewish tradition, as we consider his name to be too holy to write. its a long and involved explanation, i don't want to get into it and bore anyone. if you must go and look in the jewish virtual library

Sorry, I'm just teasing you a little, Mostly because the first few times I read your post, I thought you were using G-d to represent a vulgar exclamation.

My personal belief, and teaching, is to form your own religion, or atleast folow the teachings of one religion that holds most aspects true to your beliefs, and form a sect group/cult of it.. If you're to create as god in your carnal mind, why not make it your own image, or even yourself? Personally, I've shaped my mind into the ideal of Satan being my 'god'. I truely feel that there is some kind of force out there leading me and inspiring me, and because of the way it's leading me down the carnal nature of humanity, I naturally decided to accept it as the pseudo Satan. Not some horned daemon, but a powerfull inspiratory force that leads me to self gratification. That's how I would reply, in (very) short, to a "Prove it" based question.

I don't see how that answers the question of whether or not there is a god or not. One's personal beliefs have nothing to do with what actually exists... although some theories of metaphysics disagree with me on that statement. Also, I don't see anything intrinsicly good about forming a new religion, although I do think that it's important to progress as an individual and expand one's own understanding of the universe.

Does nobody here realise that we don't have the answer to religion because we're not actually supposed to know?

At 4/2/04 02:26 PM, Dr_Arbitrary wrote: Would you please explain what Strong Atheism does say about God, I was really pretty sure that it says that God definitely does not exist.

Yes, that's what it says. Unlike the 'weaker' version, which is just no belief in a god.

At 4/2/04 05:03 PM, shitt0r wrote: Does nobody here realise that we don't have the answer to religion because we're not actually supposed to know?

Did you ever think that we don't know the answer because there is no question?

At 4/2/04 05:03 PM, shitt0r wrote: Does nobody here realise that we don't have the answer to religion because we're not actually supposed to know?

Maybe you're just too stupid to figure out the answer, or maybe you just haven't tried hard enough. People said the same thing about many other difficult problems, and sometimes people find the answer.

Don't give up on difficult questions just because you haven't found a good answer yet.

Hey I don't think it's a bad thing for Christians to force their religion upon Atheists because Christianity is based upon teaching and learning, but I think that a Christian should let a Jew/Muslim believe what they will.

At 4/2/04 07:17 PM, Dr_Arbitrary wrote:

At 4/2/04 05:03 PM, shitt0r wrote: Does nobody here realise that we don't have the answer to religion because we're not actually supposed to know?

Maybe you're just too stupid to figure out the answer, or maybe you just haven't tried hard enough. People said the same thing about many other difficult problems, and sometimes people find the answer.

Don't give up on difficult questions just because you haven't found a good answer yet.

If I'm too stupid to figure out the answer then so is everyone else since nobody has proved their religion correct.

All I'm saying is that the problem isn't worth my time and I don't think it should be worth anybody elses.

At 4/3/04 03:50 AM, shitt0r wrote: All I'm saying is that the problem isn't worth my time and I don't think it should be worth anybody elses.

Metaphysics is essential to one's life. It is the foundation for all other intellectual problems. Determining the correct metaphysics would allow everyone to begin tackling the new problem of epistemology, and then once that is determined, a universal system of ethics that is correct for EVERYBODY would be able to be found and proven.
The problem is not just religion. Religion is just an early attempt at philosophy, an attempt to make sense of the world, and answer the fundamental questions: What exists, How do we know things (questions of sentience), what should we do, and what should we (all) do.
Christianity answers, God exists and as a consequence of his nature, he allows other things to exist, We know things because God has given us a rational nature, we should do what God has revealed to us as his will in the Bible, and we should all do what is revealed to us as his will in the Bible.

I'm not as versed in other philosophies, but all answer these questions.

The reason these are important is because without an understanding of the principles that lead us to determine what is right and wrong, they can be abused (or in the case of some philosophies, used, as that is their intent) to rationalize great evils. Hitler was favored by the intellectuals of Germany when he rose to power, they thought he was doing the right thing.

Think about some of the things you think are right and wrong, now think of someone you know who feels differently. Perhaps you've had big arguments about some things, but you probably never were able to change anyone's opinions. The reason for this is because you're arguing about ethics (or more likely, politics), But you've got different Metaphysical and Epistemological views.

At 4/3/04 01:57 PM, Dr_Arbitrary wrote: Metaphysics is essential to one's life. It is the foundation for all other intellectual problems. Determining the correct metaphysics would allow everyone to begin tackling the new problem of epistemology, and then once that is determined, a universal system of ethics that is correct for EVERYBODY would be able to be found and proven.

Now I'm not totally sure what you mean by "metaphysics" but if you're reffering to the whole abstract quantum physics type thing then I'm just going to have to say that you are a moron. Metaphysics has absolutley no bering on how people act or even on most of the universe. Most of it concerns the question of what existance is whether it exists whether thats even a viable question and other stuff which actually has no effect on day to day life. Just like newtonian physics is what most stuff is thought about in and quantum physics is only brought in when something dosent make sense. What you refer to as metaphysics is nothing more than a construct of the mind under traditional thinking and has no bering on the physical world.
As to the whole everyone getting along "universal system of ethics" What the fuck are you talking about. If you know even the most basic thing about phycology or human nature you know thats not possible.

Face it man no one is ever going to get a quantum anomaly to drive you to work and metaphisics is not going to write an ethics system for you.

At 4/3/04 01:57 PM, Dr_Arbitrary wrote: Think about some of the things you think are right and wrong, now think of someone you know who feels differently. Perhaps you've had big arguments about some things, but you probably never were able to change anyone's opinions. The reason for this is because you're arguing about ethics (or more likely, politics), But you've got different Metaphysical and Epistemological views.

Man you are trying to apply some complicated shit to a rather simple problem. I dont know whether you even understand most of the stuff you are reffering to. You might but most likely you dont. If you want to understand why you cant convince people that theyre wrong you should be reading freud not hawking. People believe things because they were told it at a young age and it became imbedded in their subconcious and can only be jarred by a major emotional trauma. Thats why you can convince a guy to wear a different tie but not to change his religous views or political views.

So for the last time, never apply physics to phycology you Moron!

At 4/3/04 06:26 PM, Locke666 wrote: Now I'm not totally sure what you mean by "metaphysics" but if you're reffering to the whole abstract quantum physics type thing then I'm just going to have to say that you are a moron.

I'm not going to even answer the rest of the crap you wrote, mostly because it's all based on the assumption that I was, in fact, referring to the whole abstract quantum physics type thing.

I actually was referring to the Philosophy of existence. Dictionary.com defines it as:
The branch of philosophy that examines the nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, substance and attribute, fact and value.

Clearly, the answer to the question, "Is the universe an illusion, a prison created by my mind?" is important to every day life. If the answer is yes, then the key to happiness is to transcend the illusion, or something... I'm no expert on that philosophy. If the answer is no, then attempting to trancend a nonexistent illusion is a waste of time.

Before you say that it's impossible to prove what is real, I ask, Can you disprove the statement "Nothing exists." What about disproving "I do not exist."
Disproving or proving "The Universe is made of matter, and there are no non material aspects to it, just interactions between matter" is an important foundation for any further Philosophy. If that statement was disproven, or the existence of souls was proven, then different rules would apply. I haven't really journeyed down these lines of thought, as I am pretty confident through my analysis of different metaphysical models, that Objective material monism is correct. By that I mean, the universe is made of matter, it exists independent of human thought or desire (basically, wishes don't come true), and matter is all that there is.

I'd be happy to debate the other statements you made if you still think they are valid. Hopefully, if you took the time to read and understand this, (I know I'm not the best writer, if I was, I'd write books for a living) you'll see the importance of knowing what is real in your everyday life.

Actually you may not have noticed but what you just said is exactly what i said about what i call abstract quantum physics and the fact that the word physics is in metaphysics sort of destroys any line between our two terms. Mine just sounds cooler cause it has the word quantum in it even though it has very little to do with traditional quantum physics. Once you get up to a certain level of abstraction with physics (thus the abstract) the line between physics and philoshipy is fuzzy at best.

So even if you call it philosiphy it has very little to do with phycology and socialogy which are what you use to deal with human behavior.

Now I have to admit you sounded pretty cool and anyone who didnt have a good knowledge of this kinda stuff probably would have joined your little cult. But my point still stands what you are saying has absolutely no bering on ethics psycology or sociology Most people dont even understand what "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound" means. So how is it supposed to have any bering on their lives if they dont understand it. That last sentence would even fall under your metaphysics thing.

Now i've been rambling on a bit so lemmee try and sum this up (im not a very good writer either)

What you are talking about is a very complex universe, observer schrodingers cat type theory most of which looks right. (the wishes dont come true thing is something I agree with but if you take a look at human physcology it does not necessarily have to be true.)

Now we both can agree that most of this stuff dosent apply to life and is a construct of the human mind which may in turn be the universe but that gets hard to write down.

So simply under the whole philosiphy/physics thing we both seem to prescribe to A person cannot be affected by something he does not understand if it is a mental construct as opposed to a falling rock.

But back to the base issue, people simply cannot all live in peace and sing koombayah together because of a very abstract concept.

But Im rambling again. I'm glad someone is thinking along these lines but the universe is structured in such a way that the matrix is technically exactly the same as the real world if i can use that analogy.

So im gonna shut up now but just so you know what you refer to as a philosiphy actually becomes very important in physics when you get to the creation of the universe.

so instead of thinking of whatever you were trying to say. Try understanding the nature of time that ones a doozy. And if u figure it out tell me I'll be impressed.

At 4/2/04 01:44 PM, shitt0r wrote: Fuck already. Will you guys just give it up?

You've spent pages debating allsorts of crazy shit and you haven't changed ANYBODY'S opinion, only shared a few facts with other people.

Yea, cuz, you know...EVERY post on NG except this directly changes someone's opinion.
Sharing facts and opinions is the purpose of a forum, buddy.

This is a little something I thought up:

'Religion is much like pi, you'll never know the full answer so why waste your time trying to get closer to it?'

So if i cannot understand something fully and totally, then it is not useful? I do not, personally, totally understand how brain surgery works

I'll live my life how I please and when I die I will find out what I am meant to find out. None of you really know anything when you think about it so just stop wasting your time on this Earth debating about such petty subjects.

An open mind questions everything. His self, his peers...and the opinions of both. If i cut out everything that 'wasted time on this earth'...i wouldnt be on newgrounds, ever...i wouldn't read...i wouldn't drink beer...and i wouldn't sleep so much.

Ha Dr. Arbitrary has not yet responded. I claim victory!

Now you all know that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.

By the way I have a new motto for Dr. Arbitrary's cult:
"If a tree falls on a mime in the forest. Does anybody care?"

I kind of forgot about this topic. Most of my philosophy books are in storage in Arizona, and I'm here in California, so I've been trying to get some reputable sources to back up my stance on metaphysics.

I'll admit that it doesn't 'seem' like philosophy has much to do with everyday life, but it seeps in through the cracks. The best example is witty quotes. Certain philosophies have buzz phrases that sum up the philosophy and sound very clever.

Some examples are
"Don't be so sure. Nobody can be certain of anything."
"This may be good in theory, but it doesn't work in practice"
"I can't prove it, but I feel that it's true"

Each of these are consequences of different philosophies. They seem like simple statements and often seem apropriate to use in conversation. If someone says that they're sure that their lottery numbers are going to win, then the first statement might slip from your tongue. But to take the statement literally, you'd have to live your life in a constant state of self doubt.
The second statement is usually applied to Communism. I think it's a foolish phrase, I think if a theory has no applicability to reality, it's a shitty theory. That quote is related to the philosophy of Plato.

The significance of these quotes are illustrated in the book "Brave New World" in the idea of hypnopaedia. By constantly subjecting people to certain phrases and ideas, gradually people will accept them.

This is why I think that philosophy, and therefore, metaphysics are important to our everyday life.

im a christan but i believe ur right they shouldnt force people to learn this religion...i say once the kids are old enough about 10 they have a choice what religon to believe and athiests are just fucking morons

At 4/15/04 05:56 PM, imdisturbed wrote: im a christan but i believe ur right they shouldnt force people to learn this religion...i say once the kids are old enough about 10 they have a choice what religon to believe and athiests are just fucking morons

Why do you say that about atheists, I'll agree that there are many stupid ignorant atheists, but to group them together like that just shows that you have probably never taken the viewpoint of atheists seriously. I think that it's important to have a basic respect for people who have different views, otherwise, it just drives people apart. If Christians really want to convert people, they must understand their opposition and know enough to explain why their own religion answers the questions in life better than the other. Bad techniques are: Threatening infidels with eternal damnation, screaming at random people (I've seen it), calling their religion 'stupid', pointing out contradictions in their scripture that have no relevance to the rest of the religion (like pointing out that the bible says that rabbits chew their cud, it's irrelevant).

Good approaches... well, that's up to people belonging to other religions to figure out.

At 4/15/04 05:56 PM, imdisturbed wrote: im a christan but i believe ur right they shouldnt force people to learn this religion...i say once the kids are old enough about 10 they have a choice what religon to believe and athiests are just fucking morons

wow, thats a rather moronic post. So at 10 you should end your search for religion and just pick one (using the implications) and atheists are morons, well at 10 i think religion is a bit over peoples heads, they dont care at that point. As far as religion goes, I guess it could be said i have no belief in a divine. I don't think there was a immaterial being that created me, or the universe. On the same note I stopped finding it important to try to articulate the reasons for my views to the religious. I'd like to design a study with a group of people and raise them from birth with no mention of religion and see how they turn out. I think it would be interesting though impractical and unethical.

i see to main problems with this whole ordeal. Theres the stubornes of the athiests, and the fascistnes of christianity. It just depends on which side you would be apon.

I was born jewish, and now im basicly just a spiritualist... im not going to accuse anyone elses religion, because everyone can believe whatever they want, no force is needed :0).

Gore didn't say that, battlemaster. That's a famous quote from someone else... You know that, right?

Dan Quayle. He said that.

At 4/15/04 05:56 PM, imdisturbed wrote: im a christan but i believe ur right they shouldnt force people to learn this religion...i say once the kids are old enough about 10 they have a choice what religon to believe and athiests are just fucking morons

I don't mind being called a fucking moron if I am a fucking moron, or if I'm about to be a fucking moron, but not when I see one of your views as irrelevant to life.

10 is too young. A 10 year-old isn't going to believe something because they think it's right, they're going to believe something out of fear of believing otherwise. I'm speaking from experience.

When I was 9, which isn't far from 10, I went to a Bethel-Baptist get together with an older sister. I think they called it a 'Vacation Bible Camp,' but it was only a for an hour or two every couple of days.

In that hour and a half-- or however long it was-- I was told I was going to Hell, over and over again. Up until this point, I never thought about 'Satan' or, in protest of people spelling it G-d, 'G-FUCK-O-FUCK-D-FUCK-FUCK-FUCK.'

If I'm a moron for tiring of hearing this bullshit about 'eternal damnation' because I don't believe in something, then I guess I'm a fucking moron.

The idea that you're either religious or a moron is a false dichtomy.