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so I guess you're implying that everything that happened yesterday was a result of supernatural intervention?

No. Let me give you an example. An a tree fell down in a well observed place would I instantly assume it was because of angels? No. If, however, all normal explanations were shown to have not happened (i.e. termites, strong wind, etc.) then I would consider the angel as a possibility.

At 3/6/04 03:49 AM, Dr_Arbitrary wrote: so I guess you're implying that everything that happened yesterday was a result of supernatural intervention?

Dr. A! You still walk among us!? But I thought for SURE that Ashcroft would've gotten you by now...

</pointlesspost>

When people win the lottery, they sometimes think it's a miracle. Just because something unlikely happens, it doesn't mean god is involved.

At 3/6/04 04:30 AM, Dr_Arbitrary wrote: When people win the lottery, they sometimes think it's a miracle. Just because something unlikely happens, it doesn't mean god is involved.

You've got a point, but let me ask an indepth question...

What if it WAS a miracle? If God came out of the sky and told you he existed, would you follow him?

I would.

With the example you gave, true it doesn't necessarily mean God is involved. With the lottery though, there is a perfectly natural and plausible explantion for why they won the lottery. With the origin of life, however, science has been unable to come up with a single plausible theory that stands up to scruitiny. Because of this, the burden of proof falls upon science.

When you look at it, DNA is a language, a language comprised of four letters which in a single human cell contains more information that all thirty volumes of Encyclopedia Britannica. When you look at writing, based on past experience, you can infer that it has an intelligent cause. For something that we cannot even do from scratch (turn amino acids into complex proteins, even with all our knowledge and technology, it is far more plausible to believe that life was created rather than just a random occurance.

So, the rational decision, when confronted with information that has not been adequately resolved using the scientific method, is to turn to the supernatural. That's a great fucking philosophy on life. Every time you get confused start praying.

Imagine if writers had that attitude, OMG I've got writer's block, It must mean that god is the only explanation. I can picture it now "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times... and then God worked a miracle and everyone lived happily ever after."

At 3/6/04 05:13 AM, Dr_Arbitrary wrote: So, the rational decision, when confronted with information that has not been adequately resolved using the scientific method, is to turn to the supernatural. That's a great fucking philosophy on life. Every time you get confused start praying.

Imagine if writers had that attitude, OMG I've got writer's block, It must mean that god is the only explanation. I can picture it now "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times... and then God worked a miracle and everyone lived happily ever after."

If you would look more closely at what I said, you would see that I would consider the supernatural when all plausible natural explanations were exauseted. Please, I do not belittle or insult your opinions, do not insult mine.

So... are you saying that there are no non-supernatural explanations for the existence of life?

That I have seen that stand up to scrutiny? No.

Well, that's awesome for you. It's a bit too late for me to argue this, I'll come back when I'm not so cranky. Sorry if I was too much of a jerk. It's just sometimes when people get a little upset they think harder.

Apology accepted, thank you.

i respect atheists religion but i fuken h8 it wen they say bad stuff and bag u about ur religion.

At 3/6/04 04:52 AM, Ceris wrote: it is far more plausible to believe that life was created rather than just a random occurance.

Yes, it DOES point to a higher power creating us, but does it point to the CHRISTIAN higher power? Not really. We could've been created by aliens, for all we know... and coincidentally, "Chariots of the Gods" puts down some nice theories about that.

At 3/6/04 06:44 AM, wickedhamo wrote: i respect atheists religion but i fuken h8 it wen they say bad stuff and bag u about ur religion.

ur religion iz stoopid, FEWEL!1

You have the wrong group of people. Atheists would not put up satanic anything. Why? Because they are ATHIEST. thats the whole point

At 3/6/04 08:36 AM, True-Lies wrote:

At 3/6/04 04:52 AM, Ceris wrote: it is far more plausible to believe that life was created rather than just a random occurance.

Yes, it DOES point to a higher power creating us, but does it point to the CHRISTIAN higher power? Not really. We could've been created by aliens, for all we know... and coincidentally, "Chariots of the Gods" puts down some nice theories about that.

That, of course, is another arguement. For that arguement I would try to show to someone why I find the Bible to be the answer. I would point out things such as historical accuracy, complimentary archaeological evidence that add to the accuracy of the Bible, hundreds of specific fulfilled prophecies, etc.

(i have osted this already on a board i started, but it fits well into this one also)

I myself am a christian, and I think that religion, to a certain extent should be allowed in schools. here are my points
1) Religion should be allowed
-not to the point that there are religious fanatics (baptists) screaming and demanding repentence between periods. I feel that in the United States, where the constitution is based of religious principle (ten commandmants) all people have the liberty to religious freedom without persecution (first admendment). Obviously, with the seperation of church and state the school systems are feeling pressure to take away the first admendment. Admendment nine clearly staes no one can do that....take that government ^^

2) Religion should be kept to a personal level
-people have every right to keep any religion they want, even no religion. However, it should be out there, but kept personal. Posting flyers around school for this that and the other will get someone nowhere. We all need to realize that we have the freedom of religion and so does everyone else. Puhing them will do nothing. I myself have converted a few people to christianity, but it wasn't through public protest. I met with them on their own terms, and as long as they were willing to have religion in their life, i was there. The same thing goes with Atheists, people have a right to believe anything they want, you can't force us all to believe there is no hell, there is no heaven.

3) Religion should be allowed to be discussed
-whether people like it or not, religion influences just about everything in our lives. No alcohol sale on Sundays is an example. Religion, whether you believe in it or not, should be allowed for discussion in school. Whether you live by it, or think it all stories, the bible, the torah, the koran etc. all teach us great lessons and should be discussed in school. One should not feel pressured to change school to a private religius school for this freedom (P.S. Freedom of speech- you don't have to say "one nation under God' but you can't stop others from it)

At 3/6/04 06:44 AM, wickedhamo wrote: i respect atheists religion but i fuken h8 it wen they say bad stuff and bag u about ur religion.

Atheism is not a religion... I'm appalled at that post. If you were an atheist, wouldn't you 'h8' it when a Christian started speaking ill of your (lack of) beliefs?

If you really respected someone, I imagine you would have an understanding of what they are or aren't about.

The arguments for theism are reasonable, but what about the arguments against? I'll try to find some:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/raymond_bradley/moral.html
http://humanknowledge.net/Philosophy/Metaphysics/Theology/Christianity.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/quentin_smith/causation.html

I shall read over each of these in detail, though there was one comment that caught my eye when I was looking over the three links quickly. One of them said, "Jesus failed to leave clear teachings about salvation, hell, divorce..." Just to point out, Jesus left extremely explicit teachings about divorce. They are:
"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery" (Matthew 19:9) This is repeated in Mark 10:12 and Luke 16:18. I'll try and get back to you guys by sometime tommorrow with responses to these three papers.

Oh I also forgot to add that according to one of the scholars in The Case for Faith, Jesus taught about hell more than any other subject.

(i have posted this on another board, but it fits well on here)

I myself am a christian, and I think that religion, to a certain extent should be allowed in schools. here are my points
1) Religion should be allowed
-not to the point that there are religious fanatics (baptists) screaming and demanding repentence between periods. I feel that in the United States, where the constitution is based of religious principle (ten commandmants) all people have the liberty to religious freedom without persecution (first admendment). Obviously, with the seperation of church and state the school systems are feeling pressure to take away the first admendment. Admendment nine clearly staes no one can do that....take that government ^^

2) Religion should be kept to a personal level
-people have every right to keep any religion they want, even no religion. However, it should be out there, but kept personal. Posting flyers around school for this that and the other will get someone nowhere. We all need to realize that we have the freedom of religion and so does everyone else. Puhing them will do nothing. I myself have converted a few people to christianity, but it wasn't through public protest. I met with them on their own terms, and as long as they were willing to have religion in their life, i was there. The same thing goes with Atheists, people have a right to believe anything they want, you can't force us all to believe there is no hell, there is no heaven.

3) Religion should be allowed to be discussed
-whether people like it or not, religion influences just about everything in our lives. No alcohol sale on Sundays is an example. Religion, whether you believe in it or not, should be allowed for discussion in school. Whether you live by it, or think it all stories, the bible, the torah, the koran etc. all teach us great lessons and should be discussed in school. One should not feel pressured to change school to a private religius school for this freedom (P.S. Freedom of speech- you don't have to say "one nation under God' but you can't stop others from it)

Ok, now i don't know were to stand on this issue but I consider myself a christian but my views and opinions of late may have many morelets say practicing christians up in arms I'm for gay marriage, prochoice, but i get into many many many many arguements over these topics with freinds and/or family my aunt is one of those extreme biblethumpers and has told me I'm on a one way trip to hell many times. She feels that saying that gay marriage is a matter of civil rights is an insult to african-americans ever (were a black family by the way) she says that the bible clearly states that its a union between man and women I and anyone that allows or accepts gay marriage is going to hell. Now is it just me or judgement of others also a sin? I just would like to think that you get into heaven based on what kinda person you are not on what you believe or the kinda lifestyle you led and if I'm wrong i don't think i want any part of this so called heaven when i think of all the people that would be sentenced to hell if this were true i well up with tears because somepeople may have never had the option of know about religion as others have and they are hell bound and basically innocent it seems like this smyphony of pain and torment named hell will have many many residents.

I agree that hell is never an easy or happy subject to talk about. For you I strongly, strongly reccommend the Case for Faith by Lee Strobel. This is because chapter six in the book deals exclusively with the idea of hell and answers many questions along the lines of what you are asking. There is one thing I will say on this subject through, people are NOT punished evenly in hell. Hell is not a one size fits all, this means that someone like Hitler will be punished far greater than most.

What I dont get is why most christian people think that not beliving in any religion gets you depressed and give you no reason to live, I think thats shit, but thats me.

If you believe that your going to a magical place after death, I dont think you would be so careful with your life. I wouldnt see any purpose in life if all people were just some creation to entertain some big magical person.

Science is my only religion, I dont believe what Im going anywhere when I bite the dirt, my brains going to turn off and I wont exist. The life you live now counts and its silly to waist it being nice to get into a heaven if you have no proof that a heaven exists, or if its even your religion's heaven. But that's me.

As I see it, religon today is a tool, while jesus supposedly lived in the middle east, the bible described his skin colour as the same as the people around him, which would make him look like the average middle-eastern person, yet theres 'white jesus' all over pictures and religious videos. How can you make people believe that a middle-eastern jesus was white? The media found a way.

The bible was edited many times to be politically correct, it says that people who sleep with the same sex should be stoned to death, yet it was removed to be politically correct. Nothing against gay people, but if christianity its against it, and you just change the religion. How can you believe in a religion that you can just change from political pressure?

At 3/6/04 07:41 PM, Adun wrote: How can you believe in a religion that you can just change from political pressure?

That's what I'm saying. The only way to get the REAL truth from the bible, would be to read the original hebrew version, and even then, it's full of all sorts of stuff. And plus, they're still uncovering diffrent parts of the bible till this day. Who knows, maybe someday someone will discover a text that says Jesus told everyone to believe in what they want, and they will still get into heaven.

At 3/6/04 07:41 PM, Adun wrote: As I see it, religon today is a tool, while jesus supposedly lived in the middle east, the bible described his skin colour as the same as the people around him, which would make him look like the average middle-eastern person, yet theres 'white jesus' all over pictures and religious videos. How can you make people believe that a middle-eastern jesus was white? The media found a way.

Well the whole white Jesus thing came from the dark ages when most people traveled very, very little so in art and stuff, people would just try to make representations of Jesus as they saw him. I mean, you live in a little village in Europe, probably have never traveled more than 40 miles from your home, and you're surrounded by villagers who all look the same, of course you're going to make art based off of what you see.

The bible was edited many times to be politically correct, it says that people who sleep with the same sex should be stoned to death, yet it was removed to be politically correct.

Wow, haven't heard of that. By random chance, do you have any idea of what version?

Nothing against gay people, but if christianity its against it, and you just change the religion. How can you believe in a religion that you can just change from political pressure?

No, which is why I don't think that a chruch or council (or whatever) that would change the Bible because of what appealed to them (or others) is truly Christian.

At 3/6/04 07:50 PM, True-Lies wrote:

At 3/6/04 07:41 PM, Adun wrote:

That's what I'm saying. The only way to get the REAL truth from the bible, would be to read the original hebrew version.

Which is exactly the reason that I prefer the New International Version (NIV) and New Revised Starndard Version (NRSV) of the Bible. Because both were translated by large groups of top Christian scholars from around the world that spent years trying to make sure they got the translation correct. And if they found something where they weren't sure of how exactly it was supposed to mean (by this I mean minute details), they have footnotes which provide an alternate translation.

At 3/6/04 08:07 PM, Ceris wrote:

At 3/6/04 07:50 PM, True-Lies wrote:

At 3/6/04 07:41 PM, Adun wrote:

That's what I'm saying. The only way to get the REAL truth from the bible, would be to read the original hebrew version.

Which is exactly the reason that I prefer the New International Version (NIV)

I call that the "Jerry Falwell" version :)

Don't know him, what's its supposed to mean?

I think that version was the one that had "Jesus" translated with 3 or 4 extra syllables. Juh eah suh us, or something like that.