What is freedom?

[MarijuanaClock]

ÿ Achieving a marxist society, or even socialist society, would provide a level of freedom unmatched in any capitalist nation. How can one enjoy freedom if he is not equal with his comrades. How can freedom exist in a society like ours. A society where some lead a privileged life from birth, and others are condemned to the refuse of society without even a chance at bettering their lives. The answer is there can be no freedom in a society like ours. True freedom springs from equality, freedom from basic want, and the end of exploitation.

Bourgeois “democracy” proclaims itself as the defender of freedom. Of course those in charge would suggest it is, they have everything to gain in doing so, but it is not. In a country like ours, where our government wreaks of patronage, bourgeois “democracy” is nothing more then a clubhouse for the rich. Worker’s parties(That is to say real workers parties: Marxists, socialists, social democrats - Note, there is no worker/labour parties of any size in America) are increasingly marginalised, and our government is comprised of a sickening morass of exploiters(Democrats and Republicans). Voters are offered a “choice” between two nearly identical parties.

As Marx and Engels would suggest “freedom consists in converting the state from an organ superimposed upon society into one completely subordinate to it.” Not until the truest form of democracy is achieved, that being a dictatorship of the proletariat, will the air ring of liberty. Freedom exists when the state consists of the people, not their oppressors.

I live in a capitalist society, yeah I've got freedom. The freedom to starve.

[beaucoup-yeux]

I would love to see the labour parties gain control in america. But its not going to happen. we have been screwed over enough times that weve lost all self respect.
This is a great post, great vision, but it aint gonna happen

[RedSkunk]

At 2/9/04 08:23 PM, MarijuanaClock wrote: I live in a capitalist society, yeah I've got freedom. The freedom to starve.

I agree fully. A social or communist democracy would be much more compatible with "freedom" and "equality" that liberal democracy.

And this quote of yours, It's similar to freedom of speach: You can say whatever you want, just be prepared for the consequences...

[Ravens-Grin]

True freedom is something that you will never now until it is taken away. The freedoms that people give to you (socially, economically, religiously, etc.) you will never think twice about if they have never been threatened. In a Marxist state, everyone is equal. Including the person that works incredibly hard and is skilled as well as the person that just goes to work to be have a job. Capitalism promotes one natural instinct us humans have, that is to get the best thing for yourself. For instance, if you have a farm with sheep and every once in awhile a fox will come by and snag a sheep. You can still support yourself even though you loose a sheep every month or two, right? Why would you want to kill the fox for trying to live? But it isn't the best option to do, letting your sheep die because you want more wool, more trading power, and more money.

Right now you could be having total freedom, but you don't feel this way because you are given a fresh plate at the beginning. I like this one saying, "If you give a baby a lollipop and take it away, it will cry. If you walk past the baby it will only look with curiosity."

[mrpopenfresh]

I can't have a stance on wheter north america would be good or not with communism without some sort of preview. And think about truly living a communist lifestyle; noone would be poor, true, but with that, personnal expression will just go in a neverending downward spiral. See, individuality will be totally shot down. We'll all be dressed like peasants made with industrial grade cotton that comes in a variety of depressing gray colours. It just seems like a depressing, dull life where you live to work.

[Fiend-Lore]

freedom? there is no true freedom, and there never will be.

[mentalis]

Freedom is simply the ability to do what you want, whenever you want to unless it infringes on someone elses person.

Getting that freedom is costly. You have to fight for it and even die for it to be had for another.

[Reverend-Kyle]

At 2/10/04 01:10 PM, mentalis wrote: Getting that freedom is costly. You have to fight for it and even die for it to be had for another.

If that's the cost of freedom, I don't want it.

[Slizor]

We'll all be dressed like peasants made with industrial grade cotton that comes in a variety of depressing gray colours. It just seems like a depressing, dull life where you live to work.

Why do you equate equality with uniformity? And then why do you relate your ridiculous notion of equality to Communism? That has never been proposed by a Communist.

[Dagodevas]

At 2/9/04 08:23 PM, MarijuanaClock wrote: I live in a capitalist society, yeah I've got freedom. The freedom to starve.

You also have the freedom to get off your posterior and get a job like the rest of us.

[RedSkunk]

At 2/10/04 01:35 PM, Slizor wrote: Why do you equate equality with uniformity? And then why do you relate your ridiculous notion of equality to Communism? That has never been proposed by a Communist.

Exactly.

[launderedculture]

Freedom is the choice between shopping at Wal-Mart or death.

[TheWakingDeath]

At 2/10/04 02:07 PM, Dagodevas wrote:

You also have the freedom to get off your posterior and get a job like the rest of us.

why on earth would he do that when he can sit on his posterior and manipulate the masses for 100 times the money?

[MarijuanaClock]

I was born into the working poor. My dad passed on when I was 14, and my mum when I was 16. I'm currently working to put myself through university.

Idiot.

[MarijuanaClock]

At 2/11/04 12:46 AM, MarijuanaClock wrote: I was born into the working poor. My dad passed on when I was 14, and my mum when I was 16. I'm currently working to put myself through university.

Idiot.

A response would be cool

[Vowl]

Equality is impossable. Someone is always in charge, and that is power. Power breeds inequality. Maybe we could be ruled by computers, but some teenage hacker would take over.

[bumcheekcity]

At 2/13/04 04:04 AM, Vowl wrote: Equality is impossable. Someone is always in charge, and that is power. Power breeds inequality. Maybe we could be ruled by computers, but some teenage hacker would take over.

Sure, there will always be inequality, because we aren't carbon copies of each other. If we were, then we'd be Communist.

[RedSkunk]

At 2/13/04 04:04 AM, Vowl wrote: Equality is impossable. Someone is always in charge, and that is power. Power breeds inequality. Maybe we could be ruled by computers, but some teenage hacker would take over.

Obviously true equality is impossible, since everyone is slightly different. But a practical sort of equality could be achieved fairly easily.

[Jlop985]

You are confusing equality with freedom. Freedom and equality are two different concepts. Freedom means the ability to do whatever is one's will without compromising someone's ability to do the same. A good quote explaining this is "Your freedom to extend your arm ends at my nose."- some French philosopher. I believe in freedom, and that it is absolutely essential to all of us. I have a different view of equality than you do, marijuanaclock. Equality for me does not mean that everyone is the same economically. That restrains the freedom of the market. What is important to me is that everybody has an equal chance to succeed, and every person rises or falls on their own merits. This equality of opportunity is what I believe in, and that equality is the ideal that capitalist democracies embrace.

[EefOofClock]

It is some peoples human nature to want to rule over others and some don't want to be ruled, they want to be free to express themselves and be heard, but "the man" won't let them, in fear of his control being infringed upon. You can trace a lot of stuff back to human nature and look at Stone Age times and how they acted as a social group, it's just now we are in a more evolved state of our society, hince the word evolution.

[Commander-K25]

Marxist theory is great for what it is, a theory. Unfortunantly, it doesn't work in real life because people are not equal. No matter how hard we try to control things or to balance the social equation, you will never be able to eliminate the natural inequalities that people are born with.

People have different personalities, different strengths and weaknesses. Marxist theory however wants us to believe everyone is the same and can be treated as statistics on a sheet or variables in a social equation. People are not like that, though. They change, they adapt, they differ. Marxism cannot deal with the unavoidable inequalities so it tries to control and eliminate them, often with force. That's precisely the reason why all communist states have been authoritative and often brutal in nature.

We can give people freedom, indeed we should, but we cannot make them equal. Teddy Roosevelt explained it best in 1905 when talking about his 'Square Deal' reforms:

"When I say I believe in a square deal I do not mean... to give every man
the best hand. If the cards do not come to any man, or if they do come, and he has not got the power to play them, that is his affair. All I mean is that there shall be
no crookedness in the dealing."

[Commander-K25]

As for freedom and capitalism, what about the freedom to run my own business if I am industrious and capable of doing so? What about working a job of my choosing and taking home the money I earn? Those are freedoms too, yet marxism would have me work a specific job for the 'greater good'. And keeping my own earnings would be out of the question because I would have to give everything to the almighty state which would then tell me what I need and how it is going to be provided to me. That's not freedom, that's dictatorship over your life.

[FUNKbrs]

As long as there are differences, there will implied inequalities, real or not.

At this point I'm willing to settle for noone starving to death. Everything else is a creature comfort.

[RedSkunk]

At 2/14/04 12:50 AM, Commander-K25 wrote: No matter how hard we try to control things or to balance the social equation, you will never be able to eliminate the natural inequalities that people are born with.

"natural inequalities?" Like, for instance, being born into a multi-million dollar family estate?

People have different personalities, different strengths and weaknesses. Marxist theory however wants us to believe everyone is the same and can be treated as statistics on a sheet or variables in a social equation. People are not like that, though.

It seems to me that the same argument can be made against capitalism. And I think the 'individual' is way overblown in western society. How far off would a communist system really be? Everyone already wears a uniform: Some name-brand shirt and jeans (Except for Shrike and his damn khakis)

We can give people freedom, indeed we should, but we cannot make them equal.

Yes, probably true.

[RedSkunk]

At 2/14/04 12:56 AM, Commander-K25 wrote: As for freedom and capitalism, what about the freedom to run my own business if I am industrious and capable of doing so? What about working a job of my choosing and taking home the money I earn?

But aren't you be oversimplifying and stereotyping a theoretical communist system? It would seem that the points you raised in this post could be alleviated. Let people choose a position, if they are adept at it, let them manage a government-owned business.

While true in countries which basically went from agrarian(sp) to communism-esque (China, Russia), say theoretically a modern, post-industrial country switched to communism. Who's to say our freedom of choice would be taken away re: consumer products?

[RedSkunk]

At 2/14/04 12:12 AM, EefOofTheBeefBoof wrote: It is some peoples human nature to want to rule over others and some don't want to be ruled, ... You can trace a lot of stuff back to human nature and look at Stone Age times and how they acted as a social group,

Who's to say this is human nature? This wasn't "human nature" up to a few thousand years ago. Hunter-gatherers, which, coincidentally is what human has done the majority of time on Earth, typically have no structured hiearchy(sp).

Human nature is a misnomer. I refuse to believe there are inherent human qualities. It is all dependant on the society that the human is raised in.

[Samuel-HALL]

Equality, my friends, is a lie. We tell the young things about how everyone is equal. We tell them bob should have the same chances as jim, who should have the same chances as richard, who should have the same chances as steve. This is bullshit.

In a capitilistic, democratic society...People are BORN equal. CREATED equal. That doesn't mean they stay that way. I am not equal to the man who drinks away his paycheck. I am not equal to the man who beats his wife. I am not equal to the man who has spent ten years on welfare. And, in turn, i am not equal the the multi-millionaire. I am not equal to the politician.

Equality is reflected through public opinion. If someone, or a group, dislikes or scorns another group: Equality ceases to exist. There are people who hate blacks. There are people who hate the gay community. There are people who hate republicans. There are people who hate pot smokers.

The closest we can do for eqaulity is to create a system, a margin, a comparison chart. There has to be a line drawn in the sand...if not, we lose not only equality, but freedom as well. That's the problem with communism...the line is drawn to deeply, too roughly in the sand. Equality becomes something that is loathed and despised. It becomes the shackle, as opposed to the key.

[RedSkunk]

At 2/14/04 10:22 PM, Damien3003 wrote: In a capitilistic, democratic society...People are BORN equal. CREATED equal. That doesn't mean they stay that way. I am not equal to the man who drinks away his paycheck. I am not equal to the man who beats his wife. I am not equal to the man who has spent ten years on welfare. And, in turn, i am not equal the the multi-millionaire. I am not equal to the politician.

How do you figure that we're "born equal," and then you go on to say that your not equal to the multi-millionaire? Don't you realize that people are born into wealth, and poverty? It seems to be a contradiction.

[Samuel-HALL]

At 2/14/04 11:13 PM, -redskunk- wrote: How do you figure that we're "born equal," and then you go on to say that your not equal to the multi-millionaire? Don't you realize that people are born into wealth, and poverty? It seems to be a contradiction.

Born equal...born with the same potential as the next person born. People born into rich families do not necessarily have to fill the 'born-with-a-silver-spoon' mentality. It is a choice.

In a democratic, capitilistic society...the multi-millionaire carries more status than i do. Wealth is cash and stocks and dividends and real estate...those are things a multi-millionaire is more likely to posses...as opposed to me, working a drywall job for 12 dollars an hour. 12 dollars an hour is nice, but i'll never be a millionaire. Ever.

That was my point. That in this society, mentality is not equality. I can be just as smart, or even smarter than the man born into a million dollar family, i can be twice as 'morally' correct as he is...i can be the perfect person...but i'll never carry the status he does.

Equality is an opinion.

[bumcheekcity]

At 2/14/04 11:34 PM, Damien3003 wrote: Born equal...born with the same potential as the next person born. People born into rich families do not necessarily have to fill the 'born-with-a-silver-spoon' mentality. It is a choice.

No. You know as well as I do that people inherit fuckloads o fmoney from their parents, if their parents have it. Working Class families have Working Class children. Upper Class Families have Upper Class children. That's the way the world works.