Communism does not work?

[MarijuanaClock]

Often I hear people say "communism does not work." How grand it is to hear them spit out this tired old cliche they have heard countless times before. Something they have been brain washed to believe.

However, communism is far from dead. This planet Earth produces more then enough food to feed every single person. All six billion of us. However, under the yoke of capitalism over half of those people(3 billion people) go hungry. Whats worse 1/5(1.2 billion) of those people have nothing to eat at all.

Now, to say communism(or socialism, as no economic system lives up to it's ideal type) would not benifit the masses is to ignore the wants of the world. To say communism will not work because humanity operates on the old "self interest principle" is wrong. Maybe you (read privileged westerners) couldn't see a marxist society working. You've been raised, either because you benifit, or because those who benifit oppress you, to believe communism does not work. Yet, over half the world wants nothing more then to eat. Over 3 billion of us want nothing more then peace, bread, and land. Nothing more then to be free of simple want.

So, before you say "commuism doesn't work," I ask you to think what, and who, keeps it from working.

You are not the majority

[Fiend-Lore]

very well said. in fact, i believe communism is a good way of government. For example, criminals. Lets say theres a rapist, whom just fucked a poor innocent little girl. jail for a few years. gets out, does it again. jail for a few years. then gets out, rapes some more, then kills a few. now he gets life, if not like 20 years. In communism, if a person is so terribly bad, then they get rid of him/her. a communist country would be in better peace with itsself, as well as a better functioning government. that way, greed would just about be pointless. and yes, i am american

[Apollo]

Communism can work, if done right. The west will never really accept it because the whole cold war thing was a big turn off. No offence to the Russians, but they kinda gave Communism a bad rap.

[bumcheekcity]

At 2/9/04 10:36 AM, joshmeister wrote: Communism can work, if done right.

It COULD work, but we would have to be in a perfect world, which we're not. Some people are lazy, some are clever, some are thick. We also need SOME motivation of money to get ourselves up in the morning.

[Jimsween]

Depends on your definition of work...

And the part about the food is a little misleading, it isn't that there isn't enough food for them, or we are taking it all, it's just that there is no means to get it to the starving.

[RedSkunk]

At 2/9/04 05:35 PM, Jimsween wrote: Depends on your definition of work...

And the part about the food is a little misleading, it isn't that there isn't enough food for them, or we are taking it all, it's just that there is no means to get it to the starving.

Aww, Jimsween is so good. Agree with you there.

[Dagodevas]

I hate to break it to you, but you haven’t really brought anything new to the table here. “Communism doesn’t work” is about as frequently thrown around here as “Communism promotes equality”.

The truth of the matter is that Communism can only properly function in smaller societies. In order to have large, successful societies, we need things like Capitalism or Democratic Socialism (I believe that’s what they call it in England). Equality is nice, but people like having the luxuries that come with being a part of large, successful society. Part of that is moving up in society; Being able to move up in the workplace with the motivation of a more fulfilling lifestyle.

[ReddSky]

When capitalism gets bad enough (moves far enough to the right side) and all people are born into poverty of insaine wealth, something has to be done. This was the situation in russia during the revolution. This was supposed to happen world wide, but many countries did things to give communism an evil impression to the people and made any pro-socalist protests illegal. You'd go to jail for waiving the red flag.

"True" communism usually doesnt work because of these things.
-laziness.
-corruption.
-other countries not liking it.
The book Animal Farm explains this well, theres a movie but im told you cant learn near as much from it. Since things are run by government, corruption causes more damage than in capitalist countries.

If there would be a honest leader truley devoted to the people, patriotism strong enough to stop people from being lazy and other countries wouldent hate and spread lies, true communism could possibly work.

[Jimsween]

Dagodevas has a great point, Communism is alot like Direct Democracy, niether can function on a huge scale because they require so much work to keep them going.

Of course, if communism did succeed it would just be demonized by the world's top capitalists, and then promptly bombed and/or overthrown.

[MarijuanaClock]

At 2/9/04 05:35 PM, Jimsween wrote: Depends on your definition of work...

And the part about the food is a little misleading, it isn't that there isn't enough food for them, or we are taking it all, it's just that there is no means to get it to the starving.

They produce the food, in their countries, and then it is shiped here. Through old colonial opression, and neo imperialism the southern hemisphere is systimaticly raped to support the oppulence of the the north.

The only western countries that produce enough food to feed themselves are Canada and Australia.

[Dagodevas]

At 2/9/04 08:08 PM, MarijuanaClock wrote: The only western countries that produce enough food to feed themselves are Canada and Australia.

This is a bit off-topic, but is Australia really a “western country”? I always though it was part of the eastern hemisphere.

[MarijuanaClock]

At 2/9/04 08:51 PM, Dagodevas wrote:

At 2/9/04 08:08 PM, MarijuanaClock wrote: The only western countries that produce enough food to feed themselves are Canada and Australia.

This is a bit off-topic, but is Australia really a “western country”? I always though it was part of the eastern hemisphere.

Western School of thought. That is to say European. Countries founded upon anglo principles(Canada, Aus, NZ, America) and then the traditional "western" countries.

[DaNNe-666]

whoa! you are kinda good at writing about politics! :)

[mentalis]

The problem is that most of the places having financial problems and food problems are socialist or communist.

[Footen]

Communism is much too dangerous. If the goverment own everything in society and have absolute power, all it takes is one bad election to create hell on earth. The western world is already ruled by a form of democratic socialism, nobody have to starve, we get education, a place to live and the workers have rights, so why are you still bitching? Grow up and get a job.. Oh, btw, USA is fucking great, I wouldn´t want any other country wielding that kind of power.

Swedish socialist

[Slizor]

Equality is nice, but people like having the luxuries that come with being a part of large, successful society.

"People" like it, eh? You're saying that all people will get the luxuries that come with being a large, successful society?

Part of that is moving up in society; Being able to move up in the workplace with the motivation of a more fulfilling lifestyle.

Tacit assumption: In Communism you can't move up in the workplace.

Please explain......maybe with reference to Communist thinkers.

PS: I do wonder why people rely on 1984 and Animal Farm.....thinking it a critique of Communism. Orwell was a socialist, the books are about totalitarianism, in particular Stalin.

[Dagodevas]

At 2/10/04 01:45 PM, Slizor wrote: "People" like it, eh? You're saying that all people will get the luxuries that come with being a large, successful society?

People with jobs of lesser importance (taxi drivers) wouldn't be entitled to the same luxuries as say someone with a job of greater importance (surgeons). That's pretty reasonable.

Please explain......maybe with reference to Communist thinkers.

How can someone move up in society when all members of society are to be entitled to the same things as everyone else? Communism makes for an unfulfilling life. Maybe in a perfect society it could work, but this is reality and it doesn't work that way. Care to explain how someone can move up in a Communist society?

[RedSkunk]

As far as I see it, yes, a communist society would be somewhat less efficent than a capitalist society. But, if one of today's capitalist societies, which are already very efficent, switched, slowly, to a communist / socialist system, the state would still be efficent enough to provide for all. The problem with the USSR, China, IMHO, is that they were never very efficent, being mostly agrian(sp).

And just for the record, could someone knowledgeable size up the differences between socialism and communism, briefly?

unfulfilling life? The meaning of life is based on your job?

[Dagodevas]

At 2/10/04 02:12 PM, punk_hippy wrote: unfulfilling life? The meaning of life is based on your job?

That wasn't even a valid argument. Have a do-over and try again.

At 2/10/04 02:10 PM, red_skunk wrote: And just for the record, could someone knowledgeable size up the differences between socialism and communism, briefly?

Briefly? Socialism is the type of government or lack thereof while communism is the type of economy.

At 2/10/04 02:13 PM, Dagodevas wrote: That wasn't even a valid argument. Have a do-over and try again.

How can someone move up in society when all members of society are to be entitled to the same things as everyone else? Communism makes for an unfulfilling life.

How does it make for an unfilfilling life? Please go into detail.

[Dagodevas]

At 2/10/04 02:18 PM, punk_hippy wrote: How does it make for an unfilfilling life? Please go into detail.

How can you be happy if everyone has to have the same despite occupation? Wouldn't it be nice if you could get an education and get a better job and be entitled to more than say some who drives taxis (a job that requires little training and experience)? I think so. I like that idea of getting what you put in.

[Slizor]

"People" like it, eh? You're saying that all people will get the luxuries that come with being a large, successful society?

People with jobs of lesser importance (taxi drivers) wouldn't be entitled to the same luxuries as say someone with a job of greater importance (surgeons). That's pretty reasonable.

Since the working class is always the biggest class (current globalisation trends are a different issue) then the average would be around that mark. The taxi driver would probably get more luxuries - the "people" would get more luxuries, the elite (who don't actually earn them) would get less.

Please explain......maybe with reference to Communist thinkers.

How can someone move up in society when all members of society are to be entitled to the same things as everyone else? Communism makes for an unfulfilling life.

The whole point of life is to move up in society? Shit, most of the world must live an unfufilling life then. Obviously people don't lead fulfilling lives by doing jobs they like and knowing they are making a difference......no fulfillment comes from the pay packet.

Maybe in a perfect society it could work, but this is reality and it doesn't work that way. Care to explain how someone can move up in a Communist society?

"Move up"? What, how they can get jobs that are higher up? Like from being a doctor to being a surgeon? Training and skill. That's a very strange question.

[H-Dawg]

The thing is, there is no one concept of "communism" that you can point to as being more or less efficient a style of government than democratic systems or capitalist market-driven economies. Every communist government is different and unique. And to say that communism died when the Berlin Wall was ripped down in 1989 signalling the end of the Soviet Union's communist system, is not accurate. Because Karl Marx's writings, which communism is based on, was really based on capitalism. He was critiquing capitalism and the problems with it. In fact, he spent 10 years in the Library of England reading about political economy. So as long as capitalism is around, so will be Marxism, since the one is just an exposing of the other's dark, problematic underside. A really good book on this of late is Jacques Derrida's _Specters of Marx_ (1996?).

[Jimsween]

At 2/9/04 08:08 PM, MarijuanaClock wrote: They produce the food, in their countries, and then it is shiped here. Through old colonial opression, and neo imperialism the southern hemisphere is systimaticly raped to support the oppulence of the the north.

The only western countries that produce enough food to feed themselves are Canada and Australia.

Hey, I've got a crazy idea, how 'bout you don't make up bullshit just to prove your nonexistant point?

http://jan.mannlib.cornell.edu...e/fau-bb/text/2003/fau7901.pdf
http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html

I challenge you to find any evidence to prove your claims.

[XoneCase]

I was a member of the youth socialist league of the UK until I grew up. The reason there's never been a "true communist state" is simply because it's impossible.
I'll take heartless, worker exploiting capitalism any day.

In response to Dagodevas:

Personally, my best memories are with friends and family, going on vacations, hanging out by the waterfront during summer, Christmas with my grandparents, having a good time with other kids at punk rock shows, I even remember when we got our dog 15 years ago.

My best memories are most certainly not of sacking people's groceries and making Atkins wraps at Subway.

[Dagodevas]

At 2/11/04 08:39 PM, punk_hippy wrote: My best memories are most certainly not of sacking people's groceries and making Atkins wraps at Subway.

You’re taking my point and turning it into something it’s entirely not. This is an issue of economics, not social affairs.

Now, I don’t know about you or Slizor, but I’m in college and there’s a reason; I don’t want to wind up in some crappy, dead-end job. I understand the best things in life don’t come from work (unless you’re working an extremely fulfilling job), but from family life and sharing time from people you love. But how can you have those wonderful things without a good job? It’s difficult to have a wonderful family life without a good job. How can you expect to be happy without a job living in the gutter? This is what makes Capitalism work; initiative. The driving force to succeed. To ability to be entitled more than what you have now because of your drive to work harder than the next guy (the second reason Capitalism works so well: competition). When you create a Communist society, you take a wind out of the economy. Without competition or initiative, the economy becomes stolid and it shows on its impassive workers. People prefer to work harder for a happier life even at the risk of failing and becoming poor. That’s why immigration rates are so high for America. Last I checked, people weren’t exactly flocking to China for their economic opportunities.