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Conspiracy3
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Carthaginian generals 2009-08-17 10:01:11 Reply

The modern world needs to take some advice from ancient cultures. Back in Carthage failure was punished. When a general had a long streak of failures it was the duty of the people to punish him with something as close as possible in severity to the pain and suffering he caused his own wounded troops. They crucified their generals. For instance, Hannibal Gisco (no relation to Hannibal Barca. Hannibal, Hamilcar, Hasdrubal, and other names were very common in Carthage) was crucified after a long streak of failures in Sicily during the first punic war. We should bring a similar noble practice to America.

In America we have the exact opposite. When a CEO of a major company screws up, wrecks the economy, puts tens of thousands of people out of work, or worse; he usually gets to keep his position at his company. If he is even luckier he gets to leave with tens of millions of dollars in severance pay. In America we don't punish incompetence; we reward incompetence.

However, crucification isn't the great execution technique it once was. After the Phoenicians invented it it became common all throughout the Mediterranean. It was inherited by former colonies, copied by nearby nations, and used constantly. However, when Jesus was executed the cross became a religious symbol so crucifying someone would be almost a compliment. What I suggest to do with the former CEOs is to put them on a ship in international waters (no laws to worry about) without guards and surrounded by tens of thousands of the people they screwed over. After they are roasted alive, eaten, and/or whatever the people deem fit, their money will be given to the government and used to fun the effort to clean up the mess they created.

So, Newgrounds, should we take the honorable example from a great nation or continue rewarding incompetence and stupidity and lead ourselves down a path to something like the future seen in the movie Idiocracy?

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Response to Carthaginian generals 2009-08-17 17:25:10 Reply

So you basically want us to torture people to death for honest mistakes?


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Response to Carthaginian generals 2009-08-17 17:34:10 Reply

At 8/17/09 05:25 PM, YourFutureMaster wrote: So you basically want us to torture people to death for honest mistakes?

Trust me, there are no such things as honest mistakes. You may make errors from time to time that aren't your fault, there may be circumstances beyond your control that lead your project or experiment to fail, but public figures, no; bad outcomes always stem from personal incompetence or corruption at the highest level when it comes to the military or government.

Besides, all generals are incompetent, sending men to the meatgrinder, while all politicians are corrupt, caring nothing for the American people. The only practical way to encourage responsible behavior on their part is by threatening violence. Ask any jihadist.

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Response to Carthaginian generals 2009-08-17 17:59:24 Reply

Someone's been watching George Carlin....

Anyway, no. We shouldn't be taking advice from archaic old countrys who's idea of morality was "Lol".

Apparently their treatment of generals didn't work so well. If not, where are they today?

Besides, a crime's punishment has to be relevant. Why should we punish non-violent offenses with violence? We can't just solve all our problems with violence. The only sort who really believes that we can are the 14 year old sort who have no idea that Video Games aren't anything similar to real violence. This is the 21st century. Things are better now and taking advice from ancient savages isn't going to help us. Maybe their solutions worked for them. But how much does an American in 2009 have in common with An Africa from the Roman Era? We need solutions for that are tailored for are people.


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Response to Carthaginian generals 2009-08-17 18:06:49 Reply

At 8/17/09 05:59 PM, OddlyPoetic wrote: Someone's been watching George Carlin....

Who the fuck is George Carlin?

Anyway, no. We shouldn't be taking advice from archaic old countrys who's idea of morality was "Lol".

Apparently their treatment of generals didn't work so well. If not, where are they today?

Their nation's collapse had nothing to do with the quality of their generals. On numerous occasions during the first two Punic wars sheer luck destroyed entire fleets and armies (Romans couldn't sail for shit at that time; they had to copy the design of a Carthaginian boat. They were foolish enough to sail straight into storms while near rocky shores and lost numerous fleets as a result)

Besides, a crime's punishment has to be relevant. Why should we punish non-violent offenses with violence? We can't just solve all our problems with violence. The only sort who really believes that we can are the 14 year old sort who have no idea that Video Games aren't anything similar to real violence. This is the 21st century. Things are better now and taking advice from ancient savages isn't going to help us. Maybe their solutions worked for them. But how much does an American in 2009 have in common with An Africa from the Roman Era? We need solutions for that are tailored for are people.

There is a point where the cultural impact of something on someone stops and the basic genetic traits of humanity start. The fact is that brutal torture, although worthless in interrogations for obvious reasons (they say whatever they can to make you stop regardless of whether or not it is true) it makes a really effective form of punishment. A form of punishment not only more effective, but also cheaper and arguably more humane than the modern prison system.

Besides, when corporate CEOs are given tens of millions of dollars in severance pay you know something is fucked up in our culture. Maybe I am going to an extreme, but what I propose is certainly better than what we have now.

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Response to Carthaginian generals 2009-08-17 18:30:31 Reply

At 8/17/09 06:06 PM, Conspiracy3 wrote:
At 8/17/09 05:59 PM, OddlyPoetic wrote: Someone's been watching George Carlin....
Who the fuck is George Carlin?

Don't play Dumb

Anyway, no. We shouldn't be taking advice from archaic old countrys who's idea of morality was "Lol".

Apparently their treatment of generals didn't work so well. If not, where are they today?
Their nation's collapse had nothing to do with the quality of their generals. On numerous occasions during the first two Punic wars sheer luck destroyed entire fleets and armies (Romans couldn't sail for shit at that time; they had to copy the design of a Carthaginian boat. They were foolish enough to sail straight into storms while near rocky shores and lost numerous fleets as a result)

Fine then. Still doesn't change the fact that they haven't survived. I'm weary about taking examples from an ancient, dead culture.

Besides, a crime's punishment has to be relevant. Why should we punish non-violent offenses with violence? We can't just solve all our problems with violence. The only sort who really believes that we can are the 14 year old sort who have no idea that Video Games aren't anything similar to real violence. This is the 21st century. Things are better now and taking advice from ancient savages isn't going to help us. Maybe their solutions worked for them. But how much does an American in 2009 have in common with An Africa from the Roman Era? We need solutions for that are tailored for are people.
There is a point where the cultural impact of something on someone stops and the basic genetic traits of humanity start. The fact is that brutal torture, although worthless in interrogations for obvious reasons (they say whatever they can to make you stop regardless of whether or not it is true) it makes a really effective form of punishment. A form of punishment not only more effective, but also cheaper and arguably more humane than the modern prison system.

I'd really like to some sort of support that argument. Besides, how are you going to get this past the American People? The same people who created an amendment that forbids "Cruel and Unusual punishment" Idk about you, but i think torturing a CEO for a non-violent offense is pretty cruel. You said they wanted to give the generals the same punishment that wounded troops suffered. Well, a CEO doesn't lead thousands to their death in badly planned out military campaign.

Besides, when corporate CEOs are given tens of millions of dollars in severance pay you know something is fucked up in our culture. Maybe I am going to an extreme, but what I propose is certainly better than what we have now.

Yes, you're right something is fucked up. But its still a stupid, simplistic and extremist answer. Better idea. Make it against the law to allow CEO's fired for certain offenses to have those sort of affluent severance. We need to be harder on these people yes, but crucify them? How about this. People are convicted of Business crimes can have no sort of severance package. (Except in very particular circumstances) Lengthen the sentence for white-coller crimes. Send them to butt-slamming prison, not luxury condo prison. When they get out, a portion of their paycheck will go to a fund that helps the victims of his scamming. Or is donated to say, cancer research. Whichever works best.

You're a little vague though. Would you propose the same punishment for a CEO who runs the company into the ground because he's a shitty businessmen? But didn't actually break any laws? Your company going bankrupt is nothing to be proud of, but its certainly legal.


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Response to Carthaginian generals 2009-08-17 18:37:14 Reply

Pretty sure that violates some basic human rights. And no, just because you're in the middle of the ocean that doesn't mean that there are no laws. Technically if you're on a cruise ship that is American, you're on American soil and American laws still apply and you can be prosecuted accordingly.


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Response to Carthaginian generals 2009-08-17 19:37:15 Reply

At 8/17/09 06:06 PM, Conspiracy3 wrote: Their nation's collapse had nothing to do with the quality of their generals.

...yet they were defeated in war... more than once... by the same people...

who, as you said, were unbelievably stupid in war.

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Response to Carthaginian generals 2009-08-17 21:31:31 Reply

Well, crucifixion is good, but can we go more modern? We have all of this technology and you just wanna use two pieces of wood and some nails? We can crucify him to a steel pole (by welding his hands on it, of course). Then we hook his nuts up to an electrical source, hopefully something that generates a lot of voltage (so he can't foul the Earth with more corrupt degenerates). And we leave him like this for 10 days. If he is still alive after this, we take him as high as we can into our atmosphere (where the gravity is just powerful enough to bring him back down to Earth) and drop him. Then we time it, and for future executions such as this, we try to beat our time. Adds a little fun and a gambling experience to the whole thing. Let at least a few people prosper off this guy's mistakes.


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Response to Carthaginian generals 2009-08-17 22:09:26 Reply

Well, I consider the Western world above the most barbaric enemy the Romans encountered. The Carthaginians also burned babies as sacrifices and had religious prostitution, let's try that next after we kill all of our Generals.


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Response to Carthaginian generals 2009-08-18 07:57:18 Reply

At 8/17/09 06:30 PM, OddlyPoetic wrote:
Who the fuck is George Carlin?
Don't play Dumb

I really don't know who he is.


Fine then. Still doesn't change the fact that they haven't survived. I'm weary about taking examples from an ancient, dead culture.

Their death has nothing to do with their culture.

I'd really like to some sort of support that argument. Besides, how are you going to get this past the American People? The same people who created an amendment that forbids "Cruel and Unusual punishment" Idk about you, but i think torturing a CEO for a non-violent offense is pretty cruel. You said they wanted to give the generals the same punishment that wounded troops suffered. Well, a CEO doesn't lead thousands to their death in badly planned out military campaign.

America used torture as a form of punishment that was upheld by the supreme court back in the 18th and 19th centuries. Plus, psychologically, punishment is more effective when the actual sentence is quick and immediate but there are lifelong scars as a reminder. A simple chop of an axe on someone's leg works perfectly.


Yes, you're right something is fucked up. But its still a stupid, simplistic and extremist answer. Better idea. Make it against the law to allow CEO's fired for certain offenses to have those sort of affluent severance. We need to be harder on these people yes, but crucify them? How about this. People are convicted of Business crimes can have no sort of severance package. (Except in very particular circumstances) Lengthen the sentence for white-coller crimes. Send them to butt-slamming prison, not luxury condo prison. When they get out, a portion of their paycheck will go to a fund that helps the victims of his scamming. Or is donated to say, cancer research. Whichever works best.

I agree that "Luxury Condo prison" is rediculous, but I don't think that prison is a good solution anyway. The way I see it just go back to the way it was three hundred years ago. For minor crimes have someone flogged/whipped. Once it is over forget about it and pretend the crime never happened. For more severe crimes cut off a limb. For the more severe put them in a giant brass bull with reeds in their nose and put the metal bull, with them inside, over a fire (actual Athenian execution technique).


You're a little vague though. Would you propose the same punishment for a CEO who runs the company into the ground because he's a shitty businessmen? But didn't actually break any laws? Your company going bankrupt is nothing to be proud of, but its certainly legal.

Yes, stupidity is a crime regardless of malicious intent.

At 8/17/09 07:37 PM, SolInvictus wrote:
At 8/17/09 06:06 PM, Conspiracy3 wrote: Their nation's collapse had nothing to do with the quality of their generals.
...yet they were defeated in war... more than once... by the same people...
who, as you said, were unbelievably stupid in war.

1. The first punic war was started by a completely unrelated conflict in Sicily and the outcome was decided mostly by pure luck.

2. Carthage had many great generals. Hannibal won dozens of victories all throughout Italy without ever getting any reinforcements.

3. Carthage lost the second war because the general left to defend the homeland was an idiot and they had to call Hannibal back from Italy (about 20 years after the initial invasion so most of his troops were old and/or wounded anyway) to defend it

4. The third Punic war was lost because after the treaty ending the second one was signed carthage was not allowed a military. Eventually they had to violate the treaty because they were being raided by barbarian Numidian tribes to the west and Rome refused to send troops in their defense. Carthage had just formed an army of fresh, untrained troops while rome had a very well trained army that had just come back from Greece.

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Response to Carthaginian generals 2009-08-18 08:57:35 Reply

At 8/18/09 07:57 AM, Conspiracy3 wrote:
At 8/17/09 06:30 PM, OddlyPoetic wrote:
Who the fuck is George Carlin?
Don't play Dumb
I really don't know who he is.

You bite your goddamn tongue you filthy heathen.

A primer.


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Response to Carthaginian generals 2009-08-18 08:59:08 Reply

At 8/18/09 07:57 AM, Conspiracy3 wrote:
At 8/17/09 06:30 PM, OddlyPoetic wrote:
Who the fuck is George Carlin?
Don't play Dumb
I really don't know who he is.

You bite your goddamn tongue you filthy heathen.

A primer.


Tis better to sit in silence and be presumed a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.

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Response to Carthaginian generals 2009-08-18 14:37:23 Reply

At 8/18/09 07:57 AM, Conspiracy3 wrote: 1. The first punic war was started by a completely unrelated conflict in Sicily and the outcome was decided mostly by pure luck.

blaming defeat or victory on luck is a sign of poor planning. why does it matter if the start was unrelated? Rome made it its business and handed out the required ass-stomping.
"Save for the disastrous defeat at the Battle of Tunis in Africa, and two naval engagements, the First Punic War was nearly an unbroken string of Roman victories. In 241 BC, Carthage signed a peace treaty under the terms of which they evacuated Sicily and paid Rome a large war indemnity." so much luck involved.

2. Carthage had many great generals. Hannibal won dozens of victories all throughout Italy without ever getting any reinforcements.

Hannibal and Hamilcar were great generals, theres no question about that, but that doesn't mean Carthage was not defeated by means of Roman arms.

3. Carthage lost the second war because the general left to defend the homeland was an idiot and they had to call Hannibal back from Italy (about 20 years after the initial invasion so most of his troops were old and/or wounded anyway) to defend it

sounds like Rome outsmarted Carthage... in war... as i said earlier.

4. The third Punic war was lost because after the treaty ending the second one was signed carthage was not allowed a military. Eventually they had to violate the treaty because they were being raided by barbarian Numidian tribes to the west and Rome refused to send troops in their defense. Carthage had just formed an army of fresh, untrained troops while rome had a very well trained army that had just come back from Greece.

sounds like Rome had been planning to destroy Carthage by force of arms in the 3rd Punic war since the end of the 2nd, which it did.
i know my history too.


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Response to Carthaginian generals 2009-08-18 15:05:04 Reply

and after reading up on Gisco, it seems he wasn't so much incompetent as he was outdone. not exactly grounds for execution, and kind of screwing with your proposed reforms.


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Response to Carthaginian generals 2009-08-18 18:28:04 Reply

The problem with holding the powerful and wealthy to justice is that they're pretty much in control of the people who could make it happen.


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Response to Carthaginian generals 2009-08-19 08:52:57 Reply

At 8/18/09 02:37 PM, SolInvictus wrote:
At 8/18/09 07:57 AM, Conspiracy3 wrote: 1. The first punic war was started by a completely unrelated conflict in Sicily and the outcome was decided mostly by pure luck.
blaming defeat or victory on luck is a sign of poor planning. why does it matter if the start was unrelated? Rome made it its business and handed out the required ass-stomping.
"Save for the disastrous defeat at the Battle of Tunis in Africa, and two naval engagements, the First Punic War was nearly an unbroken string of Roman victories. In 241 BC, Carthage signed a peace treaty under the terms of which they evacuated Sicily and paid Rome a large war indemnity." so much luck involved.

Where the fuck did you hear that from? Rome faced more defeat than carthage did. Rome had no navy to speak of and they couldn't sail for shit. Carthaginians were sailing for hundreds of years and new how to form an invasion force. The romans lost their entire navy/army to storms on three occasions in the punic war. That is poor planning.


2. Carthage had many great generals. Hannibal won dozens of victories all throughout Italy without ever getting any reinforcements.
Hannibal and Hamilcar were great generals, theres no question about that, but that doesn't mean Carthage was not defeated by means of Roman arms.

True, but it isn't any Roman superiority that caused the downfall.


3. Carthage lost the second war because the general left to defend the homeland was an idiot and they had to call Hannibal back from Italy (about 20 years after the initial invasion so most of his troops were old and/or wounded anyway) to defend it
sounds like Rome outsmarted Carthage... in war... as i said earlier.

Carthage did the same to Rome. At one point Hannibal tied torches to the horns of thousands of bulls and marched them through a mountain pass at night so that the romans would think they were marching through. The romans were stupid enough to take the bait.


4. The third Punic war was lost because after the treaty ending the second one was signed carthage was not allowed a military. Eventually they had to violate the treaty because they were being raided by barbarian Numidian tribes to the west and Rome refused to send troops in their defense. Carthage had just formed an army of fresh, untrained troops while rome had a very well trained army that had just come back from Greece.
sounds like Rome had been planning to destroy Carthage by force of arms in the 3rd Punic war since the end of the 2nd, which it did.
i know my history too.

Romans weren't planning to destroy carthage until after they had defeated greece. Carthage was just in no way capable of any real war effort at the time.

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Response to Carthaginian generals 2009-08-19 11:49:19 Reply

At 8/19/09 08:52 AM, Conspiracy3 wrote: Where the fuck did you hear that from?

wiki; you used it first (and undermined your own point with the article you provided), giving the impression it would be acceptable for this discussion. this (look at first Punic war) happens to support the prior statement as well (not the same page).

Rome faced more defeat than carthage did. Rome had no navy to speak of and they couldn't sail for shit.

but they quickly built a large one.

Carthaginians were sailing for hundreds of years and new how to form an invasion force.

yes, but the Romans, knowing this (and being fucked in the head), adapted their early navy to allow for boarding parties putting into use their superior infantry against the Carthaginian navy to great success. then when they finally got the hang of sailing, they defeated Carthage with good old fashioned naval battle.

The romans lost their entire navy/army to storms on three occasions in the punic war. That is poor planning.

first off; that isn't a defeat, hope you weren't counting that as part of your "overwhelming" Carthaginian victory.
second; when did i say that wasn't? or that the Romans were perfect (though losing to an enemy that lost numerous fleets to storms does support your claims of Carthaginian incompetence)? we're having a discussion about war and you seem to be all over the map about Carthage losing the wars. i honestly have no clue as to what the purpose of this argument is.

Hannibal and Hamilcar were great generals, theres no question about that, but that doesn't mean Carthage was not defeated by means of Roman arms.
True, but it isn't any Roman superiority that caused the downfall.

exploiting weakness isn't a sound military tactic? superiority is the ability to dominate an enemy through might or tactics; can't beat the Barcas? defeat their nation while they can't do anything to stop you.
one of the main reasons Hannibal invaded Italy from the north was because Carthage had no navy capable of supporting an amphibious invasion at that time; thanks to Rome.

Carthage did the same to Rome. At one point Hannibal tied torches to the horns of thousands of bulls and marched them through a mountain pass at night so that the romans would think they were marching through. The romans were stupid enough to take the bait.

you keep giving examples of an exceptional general's exceptional manoeuvres in battle. Carthage defeated Rome in battle, Rome defeated Carthage in war.

sounds like Rome had been planning to destroy Carthage by force of arms in the 3rd Punic war since the end of the 2nd, which it did.
i know my history too.
Romans weren't planning to destroy carthage until after they had defeated greece. Carthage was just in no way capable of any real war effort at the time.

so they crippled Carthage, forced her to beg for protection when attacked, refused her the protection and forced her into raising an army and fighting, thus breaking her treaty with Rome; ceterum censeo Carthaginum esse delendam.


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Response to Carthaginian generals 2009-08-19 12:43:07 Reply

At 8/19/09 11:49 AM, SolInvictus wrote: one of the main reasons Hannibal invaded Italy from the north was because Carthage had no navy capable of supporting an amphibious invasion at that time; thanks to Rome.

Hannibal invaded from the north because he already had troops fighting people in northern Spain and he knew that a lot of the native celtic tribes of the alps were at war with rome and he thought that he could recruit them to his army (which he did)


Carthage did the same to Rome. At one point Hannibal tied torches to the horns of thousands of bulls and marched them through a mountain pass at night so that the romans would think they were marching through. The romans were stupid enough to take the bait.
you keep giving examples of an exceptional general's exceptional manoeuvres in battle. Carthage defeated Rome in battle, Rome defeated Carthage in war.

In a way, you are right. "Hannibal new how to gain a victory; not how to use one" (Maharbal I think, but might have been someone else)



Romans weren't planning to destroy carthage until after they had defeated greece. Carthage was just in no way capable of any real war effort at the time.
so they crippled Carthage, forced her to beg for protection when attacked, refused her the protection and forced her into raising an army and fighting, thus breaking her treaty with Rome; ceterum censeo Carthaginum esse delendam.

That statement was made because Cato was fucking insane. The third punic war was a genocide; not a war.

Besides, whether or not carthage was a nation we should look up to is irrelevant. We are getting off topic. Would punishing incompetence (Carthage was not the only society to do so) be beneficial to American society as a whole, especially when used on people in positions of power?

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Response to Carthaginian generals 2009-08-19 13:56:53 Reply

At 8/19/09 12:43 PM, Conspiracy3 wrote: Besides, whether or not carthage was a nation we should look up to is irrelevant. We are getting off topic. Would punishing incompetence (Carthage was not the only society to do so) be beneficial to American society as a whole, especially when used on people in positions of power?

you may not have noticed, but Rome's actions work against your initial arguments; that failure is always a sign of incompetence, and that punishment would somehow correct failure (even if it is inevitable).
Carthage was fighting for its life, its generals were trying not to be killed by either Rome or Carthaginians (enough incentive for most people to do their best), and they still lost. given the fact that they were facing death i doubt Carthage's generals were willingly incompetent (or unwillingly so, for that matter), and thus did not merit punishment, nor did the punishment help Carthage in any way.


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Response to Carthaginian generals 2009-08-19 15:19:01 Reply

I really wish Rome didn't burn Carthage to the ground, all that's left today is a somewhat wealthy suburb.
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Response to Carthaginian generals 2009-08-19 15:43:37 Reply

At 8/19/09 12:43 PM, Conspiracy3 wrote: Besides, whether or not carthage was a nation we should look up to is irrelevant. We are getting off topic. Would punishing incompetence (Carthage was not the only society to do so) be beneficial to American society as a whole, especially when used on people in positions of power?

No matter what the people of Carthage (or the people of any other nation) did, there's no reason to go around crucifying people. Especially civilians. Next your going to say we should torture our enemies.
O wait...

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Response to Carthaginian generals 2009-08-20 08:07:26 Reply

At 8/19/09 03:43 PM, bgraybr wrote:
At 8/19/09 12:43 PM, Conspiracy3 wrote: Besides, whether or not carthage was a nation we should look up to is irrelevant. We are getting off topic. Would punishing incompetence (Carthage was not the only society to do so) be beneficial to American society as a whole, especially when used on people in positions of power?
No matter what the people of Carthage (or the people of any other nation) did, there's no reason to go around crucifying people. Especially civilians. Next your going to say we should torture our enemies.
O wait...

I support torture as a means of punishment but not as a means of interrogation. As a means of interrogation there is a strong possibility that either the victim will lie, or you will break the victim before getting any real information out of it.

Demosthenez
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Response to Carthaginian generals 2009-08-23 07:03:43 Reply

At 8/19/09 08:52 AM, Conspiracy3 wrote: Romans weren't planning to destroy carthage until after they had defeated greece. Carthage was just in no way capable of any real war effort at the time.

They paid off a huge, 60 year indemnity to Rome in just a few years. I think you are wrong there buddy.

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Response to Carthaginian generals 2009-08-23 10:00:27 Reply

At 8/19/09 03:19 PM, Zoraxe7 wrote: I really wish Rome didn't burn Carthage to the ground, all that's left today is a somewhat wealthy suburb.
link

When it takes 200 years to make a peace treaty, it isn't going to be like it was before.


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