Elitism?

[Envy]

Alright I've really begun to notice something around these parts that I don't like - Elitism. I don't mean it in a way where certain people are the only ones posting, but more so with the treatment of people. Just because someone new makes a "Check out my music" thread doesn't mean they KNOW there have been a gazillion other threads like that. Don't be a fucking prick, it just makes this whole community look bad, and could be one of the reasons no one sticks around. I'm sick of seeing someone saying "Theres a million of these fucking threads, learn to read the rules and put it in the advertisements."

Wow, was that necessary? The guy is new, and has made the SAME mistake other people, (Probably you at one point) have made. DONT ridicule them for it, it's pointless and just makes you look like an asshole.

Also, I saw an EP topic get locked... While other people's EP threads remain untouched? Such as Kingbastard and Quarl and a couple other people. Im not saying they should be locked, I'm just saying why do some get to keep the exposure they get from the forums while others just get locked and told to go to the advertisements thread? Lets not become EUadrenaline...

This thread will probably get locked anyways and I'll get told to "Put it in a news post" But seriously, this is directed at the forum goers, not people who go to my user page.

[loansindi]

At 8/17/09 08:58 AM, Envy wrote: Just because someone new makes a "Check out my music" thread doesn't mean they KNOW there have been a gazillion other threads like that.

Here's the thing. If people would take the time, and poke around before posting, they'd learn everything they need to know to avoid people getting pissed. I've never stumbled into a forum and just started posting new threads willy nilly, because it seems appropriate to learn a little bit about the place before you risk making an ass of yourself.

If someone doesn't care to even think about whether or not they're supposed to be posting a new thread for a particular topic ('check out my music' or 'what's your favorite band'), then why should any user who looks at two or three of those threads every single day grant them any kind of leniency? It's frustrating.

Wow, was that necessary? The guy is new, and has made the SAME mistake other people, (Probably you at one point) have made. DONT ridicule them for it, it's pointless and just makes you look like an asshole.

Also, I saw an EP topic get locked... While other people's EP threads remain untouched?

Someone wanders into the forum, with no history of posting at all, and says 'check out my EP!'

He's got a bunch of music on the portal, sure, but he's not part of the community. And further, isn't there a thread for announcing EPs? Sure, there could have been more guidance than a link to the advert thread and a lock, but is it too much to ask that someone invest some time in a community before trying to reap some benefit from it?

This thread will probably get locked anyways and I'll get told to "Put it in a news post" But seriously, this is directed at the forum goers, not people who go to my user page.

Frankly, I believe that no one should be able to create a new thread until they've racked up some number of posts, be it 50 or 100 or some similar number, because I think it would allow these new folks to get an idea of what's happening before they start posting those threads we all hate to see.

[Bjra]

the newgrounds audio forums are chock full of elitism. xenophobes who fear new guys coming in and asking questions that may debase the set in stone power structure of the forums, or *gasp* participating in anything meaningful. truly logging onto the forum for the first time is akin to being attacked by the swarm

But on the flip side of the coin, newbies means lots of poorly made fl core songs, and *gasp* requests on how to sound like basshunter! this elitism serves one distinct purpose though, it prevents just about anyone know from ever joining our community. this is important becuase that noobie might be the one who will utterly destroy the community and leave it in shreds!

[loansindi]

At 8/17/09 09:09 AM, Bjra wrote: the newgrounds audio forums are chock full of elitism. xenophobes who fear new guys coming in and asking questions that may debase the set in stone power structure of the forums,

Wait, what?

it prevents just about anyone know from ever joining our community

Not really. I started posting less than a year ago, and I feel that while there are those who don't enjoy my presence, I am certainly 'part of the community', at least to some extent.

The issue with new members is that people rarely TRY to stick around. Newcomers come in, post a thread or two (that are usually in violation of the rules), contribute to a few discussions, and then fade away. Or someone who's really with it shows up, becomes part of the community, then turns out to be a fake. Or someone starts posting about zero bombing, gets pissed, and leaves. I don't think the issue with newcomers leaving is elitism so much as a lack of stick-to-it-iveness. It takes a lot of effort to become part of any community.

And also, though the audio forum is a lot slower than some of the others here, I think it might be just as hard or harder to keep up in. Many of the 'good' threads are fairly technical in nature, so someone lacking knowledge of the subject at hand (this isn't elitism, it's simple fact) who posts in these threads quickly begins to look silly. Other threads are hard to break into because this forum has a pretty solid group of 'core' users who know each other well enough that a newcomer just... sticks out. It's a common social dynamic.

tl;dr

the onus of joining the community falls on the newcomer's head, not on the regulars'.

[kelwynshade]

Like with any forum on the net, people should lurk; become familiar with the way things are done. I agree that people shouldn't just come out and say "hey asshat, don't post the same BS everyone is posting!", but instead should just leave a reasonable reply and move along.

We want a friendly community.

[Envy]

I'm just saying, it's not incredibly difficult to keep your fingers away from typing insults to people. I agree that they should look around more, but the majority of people coming onto this site are like 18 and under so they aren't... matured? It's just really frustrating to see people get torn apart for something that the person before them just got a kind redirection. It makes us look better as a whole.

[loansindi]

People get frustrated seeing the same thread get posted every day. Sometimes twice a day. It happens.

When someone doesn't bother to glance around before posting a rule-breaking thread, they WILL earn ire. It's simple.

[DJ-Chilvan]

At 8/17/09 09:06 AM, loansindi wrote:

At 8/17/09 08:58 AM, Envy wrote: Just because someone new makes a "Check out my music" thread doesn't mean they KNOW there have been a gazillion other threads like that.

Here's the thing. If people would take the time, and poke around before posting, they'd learn everything they need to know to avoid people getting pissed. I've never stumbled into a forum and just started posting new threads willy nilly, because it seems appropriate to learn a little bit about the place before you risk making an ass of yourself.

If someone doesn't care to even think about whether or not they're supposed to be posting a new thread for a particular topic ('check out my music' or 'what's your favorite band'), then why should any user who looks at two or three of those threads every single day grant them any kind of leniency? It's frustrating.

Wow, was that necessary? The guy is new, and has made the SAME mistake other people, (Probably you at one point) have made. DONT ridicule them for it, it's pointless and just makes you look like an asshole.

Also, I saw an EP topic get locked... While other people's EP threads remain untouched?

Someone wanders into the forum, with no history of posting at all, and says 'check out my EP!'

He's got a bunch of music on the portal, sure, but he's not part of the community. And further, isn't there a thread for announcing EPs? Sure, there could have been more guidance than a link to the advert thread and a lock, but is it too much to ask that someone invest some time in a community before trying to reap some benefit from it?

This thread will probably get locked anyways and I'll get told to "Put it in a news post" But seriously, this is directed at the forum goers, not people who go to my user page.

Frankly, I believe that no one should be able to create a new thread until they've racked up some number of posts, be it 50 or 100 or some similar number, because I think it would allow these new folks to get an idea of what's happening before they start posting those threads we all hate to see.

I agree with the both of you. Yes, before you do something its good to scope out the rules and regulations and cultures of the environment. You wouldnt go to UK and start driving on the right side of the road. You wouldnt go to Japan and wear your shoes all up in someone's house. You wouldnt wear your shoes in a Mosque. But when you make the mistake of violating these things, people should be an asshole. They should properly correct. Maybe if now, someone made a thread saying, 'check out my stuff.' You should reply saying, 'ok, i will' or 'later i will try' but then add that for next time they should post this kind of topic in the Audio Advertisements thread.
Both of your arguments are very well said.

[ZStriefel]

true it sucks that people can be dicks about it. But new posters should be informed if they don't go the the "new to audio forum? click here!". I don't agree with being rude but I guess it gets the point across. I'm extremely new but I havn't had a whole heap load of negativity directed at me because I double check before I post and if its something useless I don't bother posting.

I definitely feel you though, and we could all be a little nicer.

:)

[DJ-Chilvan]

*edit* **people shouldn't be an asshole** sry for the mistake :(

[loansindi]

At 8/17/09 10:05 AM, DJ-Chilvan wrote: Maybe if now, someone made a thread saying, 'check out my stuff.' You should reply saying, 'ok, i will' or 'later i will try' but then add that for next time they should post this kind of topic in the Audio Advertisements thread.

This kind of defeats the purpose of having the thread.

Frankly, I find that a lot of the people who disregard the rules and create a new thread for their music generally could use a little more effort in their song creation. I've left more than one totally honest review because someone disregarded the rules. Granted, I am not one to leave a 'good job', but if you've colored my opinion of your work by disregarding rules, it's not going to help your case.

[Envy]

But if you were to walk into a restaurant you've never been into and asked "Wheres the bathroom?" and the hostess said "READ THE FUCKING SIGNS, THIS QUESTION HAS BEEN ASKED A MILLION TIMES BEFORE YOU FUCKING IDIOT" Then you got banned from the restaurant... would you ever recommend it to anyone?

[loansindi]

At 8/17/09 10:15 AM, Envy wrote: But if you were to walk into a restaurant you've never been into and asked "Wheres the bathroom?" and the hostess said "READ THE FUCKING SIGNS, THIS QUESTION HAS BEEN ASKED A MILLION TIMES BEFORE YOU FUCKING IDIOT" Then you got banned from the restaurant... would you ever recommend it to anyone?

To be fair, while it's a nice analogy... it's not really accurate.

A restaurant is a place of business. I offer money in exchange for goods and service. They are expected to treat me with respect, or they will lose business and thusly their livelihood.

This, however, is the internet. While i agree that a level of courtesy is certainly a pleasant thing to encounter, there's no real incentive to enforce it. If someone reacts poorly, there's no automatic, tangible repercussion.

I won't say that I approve of people being needlessly abrasive, and I like to think my own responses to these threads are usually fairly tame, I understand the motive. We're not being paid to answer the same stupid questions over and over again.

[Envy]

I understand what you're saying, I just don't get it. Some people do deserve some "stern talking to" when they come in (For example This guy) But for others it just seems over the top. It's like people use newcomers as an excuse to flex their E-muscles and say "I HAVE BEEN HERE LONGER THAN YOU AND THEREFORE KNOW THE RULES, SO I WILL SHOW YOU IN AN ANGRY MANNER"

[loansindi]

At 8/17/09 10:22 AM, Envy wrote: It's like people use newcomers as an excuse to flex their E-muscles and say "I HAVE BEEN HERE LONGER THAN YOU AND THEREFORE KNOW THE RULES, SO I WILL SHOW YOU IN AN ANGRY MANNER"

In the end, you're on the internet. It's much easier to reach that extreme of anger than it would be in real life.

I think it's just something that you have to accept.

[Envy]

At 8/17/09 10:23 AM, loansindi wrote:

At 8/17/09 10:22 AM, Envy wrote: It's like people use newcomers as an excuse to flex their E-muscles and say "I HAVE BEEN HERE LONGER THAN YOU AND THEREFORE KNOW THE RULES, SO I WILL SHOW YOU IN AN ANGRY MANNER"

In the end, you're on the internet. It's much easier to reach that extreme of anger than it would be in real life.

I think it's just something that you have to accept.

I gotcha, I just think it would give the whole audio portal/forum more of an accepting manner and make us seem like better people. Rather than audio snobs. However, it must be a bitch to moderate this forum because of all that. Overall, I had to wake up early to drive my mom to work so I can use her car because mine is gone... And found out my laptop cant support any game more modern than... Probably 1999.

[Envy]

Which is why I bitched. Sorry, forgot to add.

[Nav]

I really think that I should post something opinionated and useful here, but I can't think of what to post. I could put up some bullshit about maturity, but then I'd be called when people who knew me from 2 years back posted. I could put up some crap about not replying, but then it'd come across as bitching.

So, really, some of us are kinda stuck as to how to reply to this thread.

Instead, I'll just say that Bjra's links are cool.

[jarrydn]

Meh, it's the internet. If posts on a forum are getting to you, maybe it's time for you to step outside and feel the sunshine :)

[TMM43]

At 8/17/09 08:58 AM, Envy wrote: BLAH

I have to agree with you. There seems to have been a lot of hostiliity on these forums lately.
Yes, it might be because of all the new people joining and posting, but we were all new at one point, and we all have probably made the same mistake. (I know I have)

At 8/17/09 09:06 AM, loansindi wrote: Someone wanders into the forum, with no history of posting at all, and says 'check out my EP!'

If it's their first few posts, and really don't understand the forum, I'm sure they don't know where the search bar is.

At 8/17/09 09:09 AM, Bjra wrote: this is important becuase that noobie might be the one who will utterly destroy the community and leave it in shreds!

haha yeah, it's kinda like that. Almost like all the elitists are protecting their baby (AP/AF) from newcomers.

At 8/17/09 09:29 AM, loansindi wrote:

The issue with new members is that people rarely TRY to stick around. Newcomers come in, post a thread or two (that are usually in violation of the rules), contribute to a few discussions, and then fade away. Or someone who's really with it shows up, becomes part of the community, then turns out to be a fake. Or someone starts posting about zero bombing, gets pissed, and leaves. I don't think the issue with newcomers leaving is elitism so much as a lack of stick-to-it-iveness. It takes a lot of effort to become part of any community.

Well, this goes back to the original point Envy made. There are so many elitists on here that it's hard to stick around. I honestly don't think we're the kindest bunch around here. I'M NOT saying we're the meanest either. Because of this, I can't think of a reason why a new person would want to stick around.

At 8/17/09 09:33 AM, kelwynshade wrote: We want a friendly community.

We all do, but it's impossible. Unless strictly enforced.
You're always going to have that one person or group of people who are a complete dick to everyone.

At 8/17/09 10:59 AM, jarrydn wrote: Meh, it's the internet. If posts on a forum are getting to you, maybe it's time for you to step outside and feel the sunshine :)

True, but you should still treat everyone with some kind of respect.

Two cents:
I feel like if you're new to Audio, you should be REQUIRED to read the rules before posting anything at all. Like something that physically stops you from creating a new thread until you read the stickies.

Sure it's annoying to see people who post "LISTEN TO MY NEW SONG", but hey, they're excited. It's their FIRST SUBMISSION EVER. They want some feedback. Don't we all?

[la-yinn]

My first thread in the audio forum was actually a 'check out my song' thread and a mod kindly referred me to the audio advertisements / Review Request Club threads. Sticked around, posted a bit, now almost a year and 500 audio posts further, I frequent the Audio forums daily, trying to help out whereever I can.

Get it?

[Sealander]

I've made the mistake of making my own music thread back in early 06 with another account of mine, so don't be a bitch to the new guys for making threads about their own music. ;)

[Rucklo]

this is how i think things should be done with, if you hang on this forum and wish to help people out:

- be nice. even if the question have been asked 12342384 times before, and even if the OP may seem cocky/whatever.

- the easiest way is to help a newbie out who want help with FL or whatever - just copy/paste the link. you don't even have to explain, especially if it's one of them threads that constantly pops up. of course people will feel more welcome if you do explain - in a respectful manner - but yeah, a link alone is enough.

- if somone already have posted a link, then why do you waste your time posting further in the thread? if you have something that actually matters to add, that's one thing. if not, then just refrain from posting. it's not hard, fact is that it's easier than not posting at all.

- in case you do post and "help out" in a bitching and degrading manner, you may very well get banned for it. what i personally think is MORE annyoing than the constant "n00b-threads" that never end, is regulars who very well know the rules who's being a bitch towards the newbies. New people is what potentially will be a big part of our community in a few months, perhaps even a few days. we don't have any lame "initiation-rites" or shit like that - even though i have a feeling that some of you "who've been around for so fucking long and are so fucking proud and prances with it" would like that, we don't. and we never will either. if you HAVE been around for a long time, then you should be able to even faster and more easy help the newbie out.

- now, even if it first and foremost is GREAT for the community when people help each other out be them n00bs or regs (and imo that's one of the major things this forum should be about) - you don't HAVE to do that if you don't want. Noone is forcing you, and if you don't have something positive to contribute with in at least some way, then honestly - stfu.

- we're all people, we all share the same interest here - making music and audio. that's obviously what this forum should be about. If you wish to chit-chat with your fellow musicians, do so in the AF-lounge. but try to respect the rules in there. i can't help but get the feeling that the ones that doesn't respect the rules and regulations we have there mainly are the ones who've been around for a while. which definitley should be the other way around - experienced regulars definitley should at least try to set a good example of what WE want our community to be.
and if it's all gayporn me this and dick me that - you're warmly welcome to the general forum, where most of you who keeps walking the line of breaking the rules won't stand a chanse - you'd get banned in an instant. And by that i'm trying to say that we're extremley lenient in this forum, don't act like a retard so we'd have to change that. :-/

[Rucklo]

At 8/17/09 08:58 AM, Envy wrote: Also, I saw an EP topic get locked... While other people's EP threads remain untouched? Such as Kingbastard and Quarl and a couple other people. Im not saying they should be locked, I'm just saying why do some get to keep the exposure they get from the forums while others just get locked and told to go to the advertisements thread? Lets not become EUadrenaline...

We have the adv. thread for everyone, but try to reserve the right for "famous"/regular audio artists who have actually made an effort to make an EP/album and now wish to share it with his/hers fellow regulars.

i don't consider this elitism at all, rather holding the back of fellow NG'ers. and who gets to do these things? well, if you've either been around the forum and/or the audio portal a bit, and it's obvious that you've worked hard making your album - then it may be OK to advertise in a thread. ESPECIALLY if there's something to actually discuss - this is a forum, after all.

then who gets to choose what goes and what stays? the natural responce is simply "the BBS-moderators", at least the ones who moderate the audio forum. if you have a problem with this - can you come up with a better solution?

If you have done something a bit outside the ordinary tune, put extra work on it etc - feel free to first ask me, SBB and/or Snayk to avoid spending time making a thread, only to have it locked minutes later.

[Quarl]

I don't normally bitch at new guys. Most of my bitchfests end up being directed at regs but I kind of enjoy those :P

At 8/17/09 08:58 AM, Envy wrote: Such as Kingbastard and Quarl and a couple other people.

Ummm, I never made an EP thread? In fact, I've actually started to wonder whether or not they should exist in the first place...

[SessileNomad]

I agree with Envy on this one, i mean im sure if you look at my post history, youl find me being an dick to someone who is brand new, but im more open to ppl who are new than i was then

but it wasnt that long ago that i was brand new to this place as well, and honestly, i didnt ever really run into extreme assholes, because im sure if i had, i would have been like "jesus wtf?! fuck this place"

it does make the NG audio community look better if we just point noobies in the right direction, which is actually what i see most of the time, ussually i dont see ppl flipin their shit on a noob for whatever, but it does happen

[DSMagnum]

At 8/17/09 10:18 AM, loansindi wrote: This, however, is the internet. While i agree that a level of courtesy is certainly a pleasant thing to encounter, there's no real incentive to enforce it. If someone reacts poorly, there's no automatic, tangible repercussion.

We work for Newgrounds. Do not scare off it's customers.

I really gotta agree with Envy on this one. A few years ago I when I joined the community I took the time to find and read all the rules and whatnot only because I had been using the internet for a while. Most people who come through here may not necessarily notice the threads or simply don't look for them.

All the time people get more and more aggressive towards new users. It's almost that every time a new user submits to the audio portal you get trolled. Honestly it's not that difficult to control you're rage. Unlike in real life, on the internet you have as much time as you want to cool off before you post. I never post while I'm angry because I know I'll do something stupid.

When a new user advertises a song, tell them you appreciate their submission. However, there's another thread for that already and then kindly link them to it.

When a new user questions the approval process, tell them it could take a while, but said user can post about it in the waiting for approval thread.

When a new user whines about 0 bombing, simply tell them that you know how they feel, but we already have a discussion on this. Then provide them with a link.

When a new user posts about stolen audio, thank them for their input, and tell them to repost it in the Audio Portal Cleanup thread.

When a user asks for help with a specific program, link them to the respected thread and inform them that someone will help them out there.

There are a lot more situations than this obviously as threads now exist for everything.

On a side note, guys, stop making so many damn threads for everything. An EP thread? EPs take a lot of time to put together and there really aren't that many EPs made, so this is going to unnecessarily limit exposure. Eventually everything will be so organized that making a new thread might as well get you banned.

[Back-From-Purgatory]

I try avoid being an ass, honest... but sometimes... people just deserve it. Most of the time I simply link the rules or advertisements thread and never look at the thread again... Sometimes I make a small crack about what they typed then leave a link...

I don't go out of my way to be a jerk, but I can, and will be, pretty harsh a lot of the time if people are posting just to post, no purpose behind it.

On the topic of album/EP threads, I always did wonder about this, I am currently working on my next CD right now, and the thought did cross my mind if I come here often enough to avoid a thread such as this being locked... I mean.. I've lurked the forums for a good 6-7 years (This is not my first account), but only started actually posting in the last year or two.
I don't know what my status is on the forums, but by the time I'm happy with my CD I might be... but I guess I'll find out when that happens.

[nathanallenpinard]

Tell people to read the stick is logical, however with all the other threads it's bound to happen, because they won't stick anything more than the audio sticky.

Things like Voice Actor Wanted, Audio Advertisments Thread, etc. those need to be stickied if people plan on having members see and use them right away.

[DSMagnum]

At 8/17/09 03:42 PM, nathanallenpinard wrote: Tell people to read the stick is logical, however with all the other threads it's bound to happen, because they won't stick anything more than the audio sticky.

Things like Voice Actor Wanted, Audio Advertisments Thread, etc. those need to be stickied if people plan on having members see and use them right away.

Considering the you're supposed to read the audio sticky first and some of those threads are listed in it, there's no reason to stick all of those threads. I think the only other necessary sticky is the advertisements thread. That would help out quite a bit.