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At 2/25/04 12:05 AM, MKII wrote: here's some more stuff..... don't read if you don't want

here too... yup........

am i doing better now that i have some facts?

ignore these posts if they're getting annoying or whatever

Wow, look, disagreeing "facts"
Check these babies out:
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/factsheets/?page=econ
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/factsheets/?page=suicide
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/factsheets/?page=domviolence
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/factsheets/?page=firefacts
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/factsheets/?page=kag
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/factsheets/?page=afam
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/factsheets/?page=intimate
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/factsheets/?page=home
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/factsheets/?page=trends

You can read those at your leisure. Here are some good ones though, IMHO:
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/factsheets/?page=women

Myth: Guns protect women from gun violence.
Fact: Rates of female homicide, suicide and unintentional firearm death are disproportionately higher in states where guns are more prevalent.[3]
Fact: In the US, regions with higher levels of handgun ownership have higher suicide rates.[4] Although women have higher rates of depression than men, it is the handgun-suicide connection, rather than depression, that accounts for higher suicide rates.
Myth: Handgun ownership increases womenÕs ability to defend themselves.
Fact: In 1998, women were 101 times more likely to be murdered with a handgun than to use a handgun to kill in self-defense. Women were 302 times more likely to be murdered with a handgun than to use a handgun to kill a stranger in self-defense. Women were 83 times more likely to be murdered by an intimate acquaintance with a handgun than to kill an intimate acquaintance in self-defense.[5]
Fact: In the rare cases in which women do use guns in self-defense, it is most commonly against an attacker known to them.[6]
Myth: Guns protect women from rape.
Fact: Guns are rarely used by rapists - less than 2 percent of rapes are committed with guns, while almost 70 percent are committed with personal weapons (physical violence). Women would be safer knowing self-defense to fight off an attacker than using a gun which can easily be turned against them.[7]
Myth: Women need guns to protect against stranger rape.
Fact: Stranger rape is not the greatest danger for women as most women (75 percent) are raped by offenders known to the victim. 60 percent of rapes are committed against victims under the age of 18 who are forbidden by law to own a gun.[8]

And this one contradicts your first (or 2nd?) source:
THE TRUTH ABOUT AUSTRALIA
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/factsheets/?page=aust

April 28th, 2003, marked the 7th anniversary of the Port Arthur Massacre, Australia's most devastating gun tragedy, in which a disturbed man went on a killing spree that left 35 dead and 19 injured. The massacre catalyzed a demand for comprehensive gun control. By 1997, Australia's States and Territories had passed the most significant gun law reforms in their history, including a ban on semi-automatic rifles and pump-action shotguns; registration of all firearms and licensing of all shooters; and safe storage requirements for guns and ammunition.[1]

To persuade gun-owners to turn in their semi-automatic long guns, the Australian government established a buyback program, funded by the Federal Government and administered by the States and Territories. Reimbursements were generous; the program eventually cost over $320 million Australian dollars and resulted in over 643,000 guns being turned in.[2] Per capita, the Australian buyback was massive, equivalent to an estimated 40 million guns in the US.[3]

Has anything changed in Australia since the new laws went into effect? Between 1987 and 1996, 100 Australians were killed in mass killings of four or more people. Since the new laws went into effect, there has not been a single massacre. Moreover, in Australia, homicides committed with firearms have been declining - slowly before the Port Arthur Massacre, more sharply since - from 28 percent of all homicides in 1989-90 to 16 percent in 2001.[4] While the 1996 gun laws did not initiate the decline in firearm homicides, they appear to have accelerated it.

Along with the declining use of firearms in homicide, Australia has seen a decline in the use of firearms in armed robberies. From 1993 to 2001, the proportion of robberies committed with a firearm dropped from 16 to 6 percent.[5]

Suicide rates using a firearm show a sharp drop from 1979-98 with rates continuing to drop after 1996 [6] and firearm-related accidental injuries in Australia are also declining.[7] Public health experts see these declines as related to tighter controls over who may obtain a gun, stricter requirements for training and safe storage, and longer waiting periods for obtaining gun licenses.

At 2/25/04 12:18 AM, MKII wrote: three hours? i'd kill to be able to do that.....

I like lots and lots and lots of sleep.

At 2/25/04 12:16 AM, MKII wrote: it's kinda pointless anyway........ no one's gonna convert spontainiously...

Your right on this point though. Gun control, abortion.. No one ever re-assesses their position.

But the last gun control thread I got involved in, in the end, me and the person I was debating discovered that we actually basically agreed with the amount of gun control required. Just coming from the different angles.

i need lots and lots of sleep

have you noticed that the information we suppy contradict each other?

btw, people do re-assess their positio on these matters. it happens, but most of us don't notice.

I got a hardcore republican to change his stance on abortion. The key is philosophy. If you know why you think certain things, you can eliminate the confusion.

At 2/25/04 12:35 AM, MKII wrote: have you noticed that the information we suppy contradict each other?

I did.

btw, people do re-assess their positio on these matters. it happens, but most of us don't notice.

Occasionally. Pimpdaddy69 is surprising me on this thread actually.

At 2/25/04 12:46 AM, Dr_Arbitrary wrote: I got a hardcore republican to change his stance on abortion. The key is philosophy. If you know why you think certain things, you can eliminate the confusion.

Yes, this is true. But I don't have the patience to go about changing people's minds. To change someone's mind, you can't throw facts and figures at them. You have to listen, and empathize. You don't talk at them.

I only have the patience to talk at people. This is why I wouldn't be good in an election campaign.

to win an election, all you have to do is smile, look good, and say a few sweet words to the public

At 2/25/04 12:56 AM, MKII wrote: to win an election, all you have to do is smile, look good, and say a few sweet words to the public

Yes. And look at people who use facts and figures and crap. Recent example? Wooden Al [Gore].

Everytime Bush found some cute minority family that would benefit under his tax plan, Gore found ten families that wouldn't.

And then the nation collectively fell asleep.

At 2/25/04 12:25 AM, -redskunk- wrote:

At 2/25/04 12:18 AM, MKII wrote: three hours? i'd kill to be able to do that.....

I like lots and lots and lots of sleep.

I get lots and lots of sleep. It's called having Cisco Networking II as the first class of the day.

At 2/24/04 07:43 PM, MKII wrote: Guns save the lives of over two million americans each year, and prevent a lot more crimes from taking place. i got that from a reliable scource, btw.

Which would be?

At 2/24/04 11:21 PM, -redskunk- wrote: Yet I advocate gun control laws. Are you beginning to see how it is not black and white? The issue isn't a totalitarian gov't banning all firearms, or a wild-west frontier where everyone runs around with rifles shooting up the bars.

Actually, there are VERY few countries in which you can get a license to carry a handgun. In fact, you can't even GET a handgun in England. They wont allow you to. Only police can carry guns, and they virtually never do.

We had <100 Gun deaths last year, I believe.

At 2/25/04 12:23 PM, bumcheekcity wrote: Actually, there are VERY few countries in which you can get a license to carry a handgun.

Name another country that has a total ban on handguns.

Hint, Australia and their tight gun laws don't ban them.

At 2/25/04 12:34 PM, -redskunk- wrote: Name another country that has a total ban on handguns.

I said CARRY. You can't carry a gun. It's not that owning a handgun is illegal, you CAn get them, it's just fucking impossible.

At 2/25/04 12:53 PM, bumcheekcity wrote: I said CARRY. You can't carry a gun. It's not that owning a handgun is illegal, you CAn get them, it's just fucking impossible.

Yes, it would be impossible to get one legally, and then you couldn't do anything with it, if you can't carry it.

That's kind of obvious.

Now, if we're talking about concealment, of course. I wasn't saying I was going to walk around with a handgun in my pocket.

At 2/25/04 12:53 AM, -redskunk- wrote: Occasionally. Pimpdaddy69 is surprising me on this thread actually.

I'm surprising you because I'm not contradicting you OR bum for onece? Or I'm surprising you because I actually changed my mind over the internet on something?

Or both? lol

At 2/25/04 02:13 PM, -redskunk- wrote: Now, if we're talking about concealment, of course. I wasn't saying I was going to walk around with a handgun in my pocket.

I suppose I'd come to a half-way point on the Gun Control thing if laws were enacted to FORCE people to store their guns in a locked container, with the bullets stored away from it. I wouldn't mind giving the police powers to go into the houses of people who own Legal guns (on a completely random basis) and check this.

Maybe the penalty for not doing so could be a fixed 3 months in prison. No bullshit. If guns can't be used for an oppertuinistic killing, then i'm kinda happy. Also, if they aren't stored like I mentioned, I wouldn't mind giving lots of Jail Sentances out to people until they get their point, because many people would simply give up their guns after all the bloody hassle.

At 2/25/04 12:18 PM, bumcheekcity wrote:

At 2/24/04 07:43 PM, MKII wrote: Guns save the lives of over two million americans each year, and prevent a lot more crimes from taking place. i got that from a reliable scource, btw.

Which would be?

right here

I suppose I'd come to a half-way point on the Gun Control thing if laws were enacted to FORCE people to store their guns in a locked container, with the bullets stored away from it. I wouldn't mind giving the police powers to go into the houses of people who own Legal guns (on a completely random basis) and check this.

Guns should be stored in a locked container, separate from ammunition, with trigger locks, and utterly useless in self defense senarios.

Bum? You used my quote?? I feel honored... lol

At 2/25/04 06:19 PM, MKII wrote: Guns should be stored in a locked container, separate from ammunition, with trigger locks, and utterly useless in self defense senarios.

Yes. Also utterly useless for spur of the moment killings, which is why i REALLY oppose gun control.

"A seven-day waiting period for purchasing a handgun is stupid. It gives the buyer more time to think of people he'd kill. Now, instead of a single murder, you've got a multiple homicide on your hands."
~George Carlin

spur of the moment? if he can't get a gun, he'd use his bare hands

people aren't as bad as the media potrays them

At 2/26/04 11:22 PM, Gooie wrote: "A seven-day waiting period for purchasing a handgun is stupid. It gives the buyer more time to think of people he'd kill. Now, instead of a single murder, you've got a multiple homicide on your hands."
~George Carlin

just read this

"Bonnie Elmasri -- She inquired about getting a gun to protect herself from a husband who had repeatedly threatened to kill her. She was told there was a 48 hour waiting period to buy a handgun. But unfortunately, Bonnie was never able to pick up a gun. She and her two sons were killed the next day by an abusive husband of whom the police were well aware."

Well, Bonnie was a dumbass for staying with her husband. Normally, when your "partner" threatends to kill you, that's a pretty good sign that they want "till death to us part" to come a tad bit early, wouldn't you say?

At 2/27/04 12:16 AM, MKII wrote: spur of the moment? if he can't get a gun, he'd use his bare hands

No, not if he didn't really want to kill them. If he took the gun, fired it, and refretted it as soon as he heard the band, the person is dead, and there's nothing we can do.

If he took his fists and socked a bloke, then regretted it a second later, they're most probably still alive, and we can help them.

Sure, if he REALLY wanted to kill the guy, we couldn't reallly stop him, but if he didn't, and was obn the spur of the moment, bannign guns helps.

Theres always a smaller problem with somthing when it's legal

At 2/25/04 12:24 AM, re-dsk-unk wrote:

:lots of hard work, though entirely meaningless

I DONT CARE

my argument is i should have a gun as my freedom to have a gun, weve already lost enough to bullshit i will not lose anymore if i can help it and slowly turn the tide back. SO DONT BOTHER NEXT TIME. But good effort nonetheless

At 2/27/04 04:06 AM, miket311 wrote: my argument is i should have a gun as my freedom to have a gun, weve already lost enough to bullshit i will not lose anymore if i can help it and slowly turn the tide back.

Why doint you start with a few other freedoms? Marajuana, gay marriage, they'd all be good, and no=one accidently gets shot with a spliff...

At 2/27/04 11:42 AM, bumcheekcity wrote:

Why doint you start with a few other freedoms? Marajuana, gay marriage, they'd all be good, and no=one accidently gets shot with a spliff...

well i was saying that we already have that freedom so i dont plan on losing it like search and seizure. But that other stuff ill attempt to have passed, oh yea and we might want to get rid of carnivore (fbi internet filter), the fbi phone filter, homeland security and the patriot acts.
For a quick laugh read these letters from children to bush...
http://www.whitehouse.org/kids/letters.asp