Dragon's cave - steps

[EchoRun]

I'm working on an art piece now and wanted to go through the steps in making it. Each 'step' will be fairly general, more on the line of lose phases that go together. Over the next could of days, I'll post the earlier stages (I will only post two, this included) before I catch up with roughly where I am now, unless I make any significant advancements in the meantime. I suppose the purpose of this is both as a demonstration and since a few elements of this picture are new to me, to see if anyone can offer any tips.

Originality I had the idea of a dragon mostly hidden in darkness, with only highlights from a front light visible. As I have progressed through this picture, it is quickly changing into something else, with a full background, extra light source and considerably more detail.

The first part was a basic line up (I use the quarters and thirds grid for proportioning an image, something I adapted from photography), a very rough sketch, light sources, and some minor scribble-detail to help me get a feel for the image. As you can see even by this point the design was changing from my original idea, with the inclusion of the cave opening on the roof. The opening was originality symmetrical but I changed that almost immediately as the symmetry just felt wrong.

[LordAdon]

sounds cool but how about other people help you? like.... could I do a step?

[J-qb]

I did a paintover for a few things, mostly the rule of thirds. I think it is a good thing you think about the composition of your picture. However: you put in the raster for the rule of thirds, but didnt stick to it...
The dragons body lies below the third line, the neck lies along the center line, and the head occupies dead center.
In my redraw, the body lies along the lower horizontal guideline, and the wing and neck lie along the vertical guidlines. The head lies on the cross of top horizontal and right vertical guides. This should give a more interesting composition.
I made the bottom rocks a bit higher to decrease the amount of negative space underneath the dragon.
I made the skylight a bit bigger and lowered the ceiling so that the skylight doesnt stand out as much. it didnt seem natural to me the way it was.

I dont know how for you progressed from that initial drawing, but this is just my two cents.

[J-qb]

yup

[EchoRun]

At 8/2/09 11:41 PM, LordAdon wrote: sounds cool but how about other people help you? like.... could I do a step?

Sorry, perhaps with another piece, but this one was intended to be my own.

At 8/3/09 07:52 AM, J-qb wrote: I did a paintover for a few things, mostly the rule of thirds. I think it is a good thing you think about the composition of your picture. However: you put in the raster for the rule of thirds, but didnt stick to it..

Hmm... I haven't followed the lines in that way before, your demonstration is certainly interesting. When I did the lesson on photography, the way I understood it was that the thirds/quarters were used as zones where stuff happened, unless you had really blatant lines like a horizon. I have also looked at lines of action in a picture, but I have always seen those as being able to happen anywhere; their positioning dictates where the eye is drawn, so the effect you want will determine where you want your lines (a focus will have a lot of crossing lines, while an image the eye drifts over will have even spread lines with the crosses spread out). I will consider what you said for future work, it has an interesting look to it (or possibly this one if I decide the composition isn't working and I reorganise it).

Thanks for that.

Ok, this next phase was where my silly brain got me into trouble, sending this image far beyond my original intent. So I have a great gaping hole in the roof of a cave letting light through. My understanding is that such holes usually come accompanied with water... so the logical conclusion was to attach a waterfall to it. Well, I started work on that, but a waterfall on black just didn't seem right so I sketched a rough background, lots of stalagmites and stalactites, tying into the watery look started by that waterfall.

The waterfall itself hasn't progressed much beyond this image, I'm trying to think of ways to improve it. So far the only things I can think of are to make it more solid, maybe thin it out towards the bottom, and possibly spread the base of the fall out more.

In the background sketch, there is a line that just about cuts the image in half; that is a rock line that will sit in front of the waterfall and behind the dragon, creating an alcove where the dragon sits. Colouring that in later I realised it really did cut the image in half too much so I shortened it from what is shown here.

[EchoRun]

And this is as far as I have gotten so far.

Most of the background has been coloured in, only one layer to go - further detail will likely come later.

The dragon has been filled in black and rough highlights added to try and give me an idea of lighting and colour for later.

The foreground has been changed - the lava flow didn't fit with the watery theme of the rest of the image any more. So I changed it to a sort of fiery incubation nest for some eggs.

Having gotten this far, I find that the dragon's head and the rocks line up too much - it looks like it is wearing a hat! I will have to re-do that, one way or another.

[EchoRun]

I have played around with the composition of the image here. First I flipped the image horizontal, to get a fresh look at it. From doing that I extended the middle rocks on the original left, new right, to form a full pillar to add more weight to that side of the image. Then I flipped the dragon back to its original place, then moved it a little to the right. That didn't look right with the new waterfall placement so I flipped that and the roof back to their orriginal place again.

I have finished blotting in the rocks, more detail may come later.

I have begun working on the dragon proper now, working out how the light works with it and some general features. This is still mostly a 'guideline' stage since I am still figuring out how this is going to work.

[MeMB]

At 8/12/09 04:37 PM, EchoRun wrote: I have begun working on the dragon proper now, working out how the light works with it and some general features. This is still mostly a 'guideline' stage since I am still figuring out how this is going to work.

Nice progress! I really like the lighting on the dragon and the water falling in through the hole. The light on the dragon does seem abit too sharp at the moment but I'm sure that'll be fixed. Looks nice!

[EchoRun]

At 8/12/09 05:23 PM, MeMB wrote: Nice progress! I really like the lighting on the dragon and the water falling in through the hole. The light on the dragon does seem abit too sharp at the moment but I'm sure that'll be fixed. Looks nice!

Thanks. :)

Everything on the dragon is still in the 'messing around, figuring what to do' stage. It is going well though, I'm progressing through this faster then I did on the art projects I did a couple of years ago, despite higher detail levels now.

[MegaMelmo]

Wow. This one of my favorite WIP's I've seen on this forum. I really am loving the gap on the ceiling, I can't wait until all the detail is added.

[J-qb]

even though you totally ignored my advise ;), im anxious to see how this turns out.
although I think the dragon looks a bit off anatomically-wise with his wings and front legs being that far back.

[EchoRun]

At 8/12/09 07:32 PM, MegaMelmo wrote: Wow. This one of my favorite WIP's I've seen on this forum. I really am loving the gap on the ceiling, I can't wait until all the detail is added.

Thank you. :)

I'll try not to disappoint!

At 8/12/09 07:51 PM, J-qb wrote: even though you totally ignored my advise ;), im anxious to see how this turns out.
although I think the dragon looks a bit off anatomically-wise with his wings and front legs being that far back.

Lol, I didn't ignore it completely... The dragon has shifted to the right, lining the neck up and the head now sits on a cross point... so that's something! :P

I see what you mean about the dragon legs though, that has been bugging me too though I couldn't put my finger on what it was until you mentioned it - thanks for pointing that out! :)

I'll have another look at those wings, though those haven't been bothering me as much. Changing the legs might change my perception of them too though, so we will see.

[EchoRun]

Ok, next small update. Haven't done quite so much recently as I have gotten absorbed by other projects.

I did alter the legs and wings slightly, mostly the legs and I think it looks much better now. Done some more playing around with the lighting and colour on the dragon, figuring out what will go where.

Added the start of the Dragon's Horde, no detail to it yet though. Also added the fire pit with the beginning of the eggs and flames. Might make the eggs bigger, more prominent.

The gold, fire and lighting on the dragon is making a colour division between the top and bottom halves of the image. While the colours wont be so obvious when I am finished, that division would still have been there, so I am mixing it up a bit. Starting to add more fiery colours to the middle and closer background rocks. Also added a slight yellow tint to the light from the roof.

The background has a lot more glow and haze now, still a WIP but getting closer to what I want. Much more light from the roof.

Also starting to polish the rocks up a little.

[Kakashi1930]

wow thats looking really good cant wait to see the finished product

[J-qb]

At 8/20/09 08:46 PM, EchoRun wrote: Ok, next small update. Haven't done quite so much recently as I have gotten absorbed by other projects.

Well, its starting to shape up, The fire really needs some more work, tis crazy hard to do...

[EchoRun]

Hay guys, long time no post!

Been caught up on other things lately, painting, games, a little time off sick, and other randomness. This has been on hold since yesterday, but work has started again. Changed the colour of the dragon, from red to grey/blue. There will still be fiery colours on it, but I will add those later when I do the lighting from the fire. I'm just posting a close up (100% zoom really) of the head to show the scales and eyes that I have done. I think the eyes are just about finished now, though we will see in case I change me mind.

Some changes have been made to the rest of the image; smoothed out the background glow a little, made the eggs bigger, a little more smoothing on the background rocks.

The white blob with dots is my current colour pallet for the dragon. The line of blues is the colour for the scales, the cluster of red/orange/yellow is for the fire and fire light. The others are for reference for other random things, one is for the eyes, the other two... I forget what those were for right now. *shrugs*

[CloudEater]

I have to say that I really wasn't expecting it to turn into much from the first sketch but it's turned out hepas good. I think you need to draw the flames a bit better, make them more uneven and it seems like the fire is around the edge of the rocks not in the middle of them. It would look alot better if you used more colours to show the light and shading on the dragon, you've only used three on the red one.

I really like the opening in the roof and the way you've made the light shine through, you should probably make the background and some areas darker so you can really see the light shining down. The new blue dragon's looking really good, looks like you've spent alot of time on it, good work.

[EchoRun]

At 11/20/09 03:30 AM, CloudEater wrote: I have to say that I really wasn't expecting it to turn into much from the first sketch but it's turned out hepas good. I think you need to draw the flames a bit better, make them more uneven and it seems like the fire is around the edge of the rocks not in the middle of them. It would look alot better if you used more colours to show the light and shading on the dragon, you've only used three on the red one.

I'm glad you like the progress so far.

Most of what i have posted shows work in progress, my attempts to figure out how to do things as a lot of this is new to me - the different lighting, the water, the fire... So in trying to work it out I sketch approximations, rough things to help me get a feel for something before I go into more detail. So the three colours on the red dragon are just me working out how it will look and how the light will go since the type of lighting is new to me. Since this new I am likely to get things wrong so I might as well go through all the changes and re-dos in rough work rather then re-doing detail that I have spent many hours over.

I really like the opening in the roof and the way you've made the light shine through, you should probably make the background and some areas darker so you can really see the light shining down. The new blue dragon's looking really good, looks like you've spent alot of time on it, good work.

The background is tricky since although it is on a black base, I need some 'fuzzy glow' to show light and water spray. The thing will be getting the right amount of glow compared to dark. Yet another part that I am trying to work out.

The blue dragon version is now looking to be a fixture. Work on it's scales is progressing, though I have yet to add any fire glow - nor deeper shadows because of it.

Now, speaking of the fire I have been experimenting more with those flames. I have made the eggs bigger and more prominent though I have a lot of colouring to work out; need to make them darker on top for a start. The flames themselves have had a little more work. I have added a new layer, still just behind the eggs - the rest of the fire in front of them will be added in later.

I wanted to see what people thought of the re-design for the fire and eggs. Could they use a colour tweak, re-sizeing, anything? I think they look more fire-like now and the eggs are more noticeable now (or they will be with a colour change), though I wouldn't mind some second opinions.

[big-jonny-13]

Be careful, the snout is starting to take on a beak-life appearance, and you don't want that now for a dragon, do you?

[Fleshlight]

At 11/22/09 10:12 PM, big-jonny-13 wrote: Be careful, the snout is starting to take on a beak-life appearance, and you don't want that now for a dragon, do you?

why can't a dragon have a beak? They were created by mad imperial scientists when they bred a bird with a lizard ya know

[EchoRun]

At 11/22/09 10:12 PM, big-jonny-13 wrote: Be careful, the snout is starting to take on a beak-life appearance, and you don't want that now for a dragon, do you?

I have seen dragons with beak like snouts before - never done one like that myself though. This one was always going to have a pointed snout, though I didn't intend for a beak. Nostrils might help that though, I haven't added them yet.

Maybe I will do a beaked dragon sometime, give it a feather/scale mix. Might be pretty...

[big-jonny-13]

At 11/22/09 10:22 PM, EchoRun wrote:

At 11/22/09 10:12 PM, big-jonny-13 wrote: Be careful, the snout is starting to take on a beak-life appearance, and you don't want that now for a dragon, do you?

I have seen dragons with beak like snouts before - never done one like that myself though. This one was always going to have a pointed snout, though I didn't intend for a beak. Nostrils might help that though, I haven't added them yet.

Yeah, nostrils will probably help

Maybe I will do a beaked dragon sometime, give it a feather/scale mix. Might be pretty...

Archaeopteryx?

[CloudEater]

At 11/22/09 10:02 PM, EchoRun wrote: I wanted to see what people thought of the re-design for the fire and eggs. Could they use a colour tweak, re-sizeing, anything? I think they look more fire-like now and the eggs are more noticeable now (or they will be with a colour change), though I wouldn't mind some second opinions.

The fire is much better and the eggs look better grouped up like that. The eggs would stand out more if they were a bit lighter and you need to make them seem more smooth and rounded. Perhaps place some flames in front of the eggs. You should make the eggs seem more rounded and add some glare on them or something...? It's looking heaps good :D

[EchoRun]

At 11/22/09 10:19 PM, Fleshlight wrote: why can't a dragon have a beak? They were created by mad imperial scientists when they bred a bird with a lizard ya know

Ah but what bird and lizard did they use? A komodo crossed with an ostrich, now that would be a scary beast. It wouldn't fly, but between the bite and the kick, I wouldn't want to meet one.

At 11/22/09 10:36 PM, big-jonny-13 wrote:

At 11/22/09 10:22 PM, EchoRun wrote: Maybe I will do a beaked dragon sometime, give it a feather/scale mix. Might be pretty...

Archaeopteryx?

Lol, not quite. Real or not, I think that head is ugly! Mine would have an extra set of legs too - wyverns only have the back legs, dragons have four legs. I insist on that detail!

A head like that makes it look like the slightly uglier, direct ancestor of the vulture. Yeah I know, dinosaurs, birds evolution etcetera, but still!

At 11/22/09 10:49 PM, CloudEater wrote:
The fire is much better and the eggs look better grouped up like that. The eggs would stand out more if they were a bit lighter and you need to make them seem more smooth and rounded. Perhaps place some flames in front of the eggs. You should make the eggs seem more rounded and add some glare on them or something...? It's looking heaps good :D

I wanted the eggs to be a oval shape - like chicken eggs. Problem is sitting objects together when they are shaped like that can be tricky. I don't think I can make the eggs lighter, I would lose them in the fire if I did. I think I will be adding glare, yes. Also, I already mentioned some fire will be going in front of the eggs, I just haven't done that bit yet. ;)

Thanks for the feedback guys!

[EchoRun]

Ok, not just a partial update this time, thought I would show the whole thing as it currently stands.

Since the last full image I have; smoothed out the rocks; changed the colour of the dragon and begun work on its scales and base colour; smoothed out some of the 'glow' from the roof; cleaned up some of the mistakes around the image; improved on the eggs and fire.

Stuff I still have to do:
Finish the scales and base colour on the dragon, then add orange glow from the fire, deepening the shadows. (sounds like doing it the long way round - and it is - but since I am new to this type of lighting I need to work it out layer by layer. Next time I will be able to be more direct)
Adjust the Light/Dark balance of the background.
Do a final polish of the rocks.
Finalise the orange/red glow from the fire on the rocks.
Adjust the water in the background.
Add detail to the dragon's horde.
Finish the Eggs and Fire.
And anything else I think of as I go.

Had a small panic attack since my last update; my graphics tablet hit a glitch and refused to work as it should. Hopefully it is ok now, though since I have had this thing for about 7 years it could just be it's old age catching up with it, in which case I will have to replace it. So sad!! This old thing even has the engraving the boat my little brother tried to draw with a real pen, etched into it's cover! :(

Speaking up hitting technical trouble, I need to purge my C drive of anything that isn't Windows and other necessary components. Why? Because Vista takes up so much room that Photoshop is starting stutter badly with my larger images. I cleared 1g of memory a week ago and that helped a little but I need more. To make this more complicated this laptop originally belonged to my dad and I don't know what he put on it. I am going to have to go through every folder I find and look it up online to see if it is important or not, then get rid of anything I can. At least I have a backup HD I can store things on - pity I can't chuck Vista on to that thing too, it is alot bigger then my C drive.

Unrelated to this image, I finally finished an A3 sized acrylic painting I have been working on. It got put on hold for almost a year then recently I finished it in a week. Typical. And now all I need is a silver pen to sign it with... problem is I haven't seen mine since before I originally put the painting on hold. *sigh*

Still, as soon as I do find something to sign it with I will post a picture of it on my other thread, either a photo or two halves of a scan merged together, which ever turns out better due to the amount of metallic and glitter paint I used (not as bad as it sounds, honest! I only used glitter for a few stars!).

[kr8to]

things you still need to work on

[Lundsfryd]

At 11/27/09 03:17 AM, kr8to wrote: things you still need to work on

wauw.. That was a useless post.

[JoeTheToucan]

At 11/27/09 03:17 AM, kr8to wrote: things you still need to work on

What the fuck is this, it's like pawing through shit looking for your keys. If there's SO MUCH that you feel need be improved, and you're DYING to tell him what they are, 'least make it more clear as to what they are. And mate, let's face it, half those really did not need pointing out. Now I see what LaserKarl had out for you. You're a turd.

[CloudEater]

Well isn't kr8to helpful!! :D Here are some things to improve on/change: The lone stalecthing (pretruding from ground) doesn't blend in with the ground enough so kind of looks like it's not in contact with the ground. Get rid off all the red and just use greys and blues as the red contrasts too much with the rest of the picture. The floor doesn't look as smooth as the rocks and the rest of the pic.

[EchoRun]

At 11/27/09 03:17 AM, kr8to wrote: things you still need to work on

Right.... and without a matching description for all of that there is absolutely nothing I can do with it all. You want to tell me something, then try talking to me instead.

At 11/27/09 08:17 AM, CloudEater wrote: Well isn't kr8to helpful!! :D

Hmm...

Here are some things to improve on/change: The lone stalecthing (pretruding from ground) doesn't blend in with the ground enough so kind of looks like it's not in contact with the ground.

The lone one to the left of the waterfall, right? The base of that isn't supposed to be ground, that is gonna be water. I have a LOT of work to do there, so I don't mind too much that it looks off at this point. The look of it needs a big overhaul, even the line is off. That will be worked on soon.

Get rid off all the red and just use greys and blues as the red contrasts too much with the rest of the picture.

The red was intend as a beginning guide for light from the fire shining on the rocks. The red is far too dark, too prominent and the wrong shade for it I admit, that will be changed. I need some firelight on the other rocks to blend the two halves of the picture - the dragon, the horde and the fire in the front, and the rocks and water in the background. There will be highlights from the waterfall shining down into the front too, to further merge the two halves.

The floor doesn't look as smooth as the rocks and the rest of the pic.

Which part are you referring to; the water-floor or the gold? Both are still work in progress and need work, so that's cool.

So, at this point I reckon I am about half way to finishing this, so I still have a lot of work to do.

Thanks again for the feedback.