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Should marijuana be legalized?

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Ceratisa
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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-07 19:59:57 Reply

At 2/7/13 02:35 PM, Sense-Offender wrote:
At 2/7/13 10:01 AM, Ceratisa wrote:
At 2/6/13 10:16 PM, Sense-Offender wrote:
At 2/6/13 08:08 PM, Ceratisa wrote: But as I keep saying, mentioning that something else isn't exactly great doesn't justify something else.
So what? Are you for making booze illegal, then?
Nope
See, this is why it is relevant. If you don't believe alcohol should be outlawed, but you're going to argue against legalizing pot, then you should be able to come up with arguments that can't also be said about alcohol. It's very simple, and shrugging it off isn't going to somehow invalidate it.

But now you are just putting words in my mouth. Just because I'm not for making "booze" illegal
(That failed awhile ago and it introduced organized crime, and if you want to make the Cartel argument we might as well make all illegal substances legal or drop it. Because they don't just deal marijuana, far from it, so regardless of marijuana being legalized we'd still have them)

I'm sorry you don't understand the difference between arguing for something and against something else. I'm simply not saying booze should be legal and Marijuana shouldn't. There is no argument to be made there at all. You need to argue the pros of something without bringing up the cons of something else. There simply isn't an honest argument to be made from that unless you can force all alcoholics to become pot heads instead, no what is more likely is more people will be abusing more substances.
This isn't a simple case of
+M = -A

I don't care for alcohol at all, I personally don't consume it. I cannot willingly consume a substance that retards mind like that, I feel the same way about Marijuana.

RacistBassist
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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-07 20:19:08 Reply

When talking about the legality of something you don't need to bring up pros if there are no cons.


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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-07 21:29:48 Reply

At 2/7/13 08:19 PM, RacistBassist wrote: When talking about the legality of something you don't need to bring up pros if there are no cons.

I agree.

Some in this thread have asked us pro-legalization folks to explain what benefits marijuana has that could justify its legalization. We just respond(for the most part, anyway) that marijuana doesn't have much in the way of cons, despite popular belief.

Something doesn't have to be beneficial to society to be legal. It just shouldn't be excessively detrimental.


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Ceratisa
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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-08 23:33:07 Reply

At 2/7/13 08:19 PM, RacistBassist wrote: When talking about the legality of something you don't need to bring up pros if there are no cons.

That isn't even remotely true, because if it were then changes policies and the bureaucracies that follows is free. Nor can I see anyone deny with reason that more children may use the substance with increased supply (Dad has pot, smoke it) If children access parent's weapons because some don't lock it up you better believe some marijuana is gonna get smoked. Nor should we need to bear the increased cost of counseling for more children substance abuse.

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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-09 23:11:27 Reply

I feel that all drugs should be legalized. Alot of people i know disagree with that stance, but i can't understand their logic. I mean, they impair you behind a vehicle no more or less than alcohol will. Some say that if they are legalized than more people will start doing them, but that doesn't make sense. Most people who don't do drugs don't do them because they don't want to, not because they're illegal. People who want to do drugs are going to get them, legal or not. It's outrageous to jail someone for doing something that is in no way directly infringing upon the rights of anyone else. Prohibition just doesn't work. History will tell you that. All drug prohibition has accomplished is the utter waste of tax payer money, used to keep non-violent offenders in prison.

This would also significantly reduce Gang-Violence. You always hear people talking about how bad Gang-Violence is. Well, think about it . Alot of gang-violence is drug related. One gang is selling in a particular area, another gang comes along and starts selling in the same area, cutting into their business, so they take them out. Drugs being legalized = no more need for drug dealers. No drug dealers = less gang violence.

Regardless of whether or not you agree with the above, any logical person will agree that Cannabis should be legal. Out of all the drugs (if you can even call it a drug), it definitely has the lightest effects. I know people who smoke everyday and i see no significant change, and those same people, when drunk, are completely different people. Not to mention, it's Natural. Cannabis comes from nature, just like we do. You can't just outlaw nature, it doesn't make sense, and it's not our right.

Well, those are my thoughts on the subject. Prohibition just does not work. It has never worked, and it never will. It didn't work for alcohol in the 20's and 30's, and it's not working for drugs now. It needs to stop.


We have a choice. We can enhance life and come to know the universe that made us, or we can squander our 15 billion year heritage in meaningless self-destruction.
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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-12 20:02:18 Reply

At 2/6/13 02:13 AM, Ceratisa wrote: Once again, you've failed to actually support marijuana. Just mention other stupid shit people do.

You've been in this thread a long long long time and you have heard literally evry argument we have.
It will reduce crime
It allows those who have a problem with it to get help without social and legal persecution.
It reduces the amount of money cartels make (marijuana is still the most trafficked drug worldwide)
It ensures that the product is free of harmful additives
It means law abiding citizens do not have to deal with criminals
It makes shittons of money for government.
It is a great medicine that does not need to be controlled by big pharmacy
Hemp is a great fibre and far superior as a paper.
Reasonable use can actually start to be advocated. Previously no one could speak of it that way for its illegality.
As a free society we should have a right to our own bodies.
It harms no one bar ourselves. It makes no one aggressive, it calms people, within the scientific circle it is known to promote brain development, it is not toxic, it has no physical addiction.
Legalization will keep it out of the hands of children more than a random drug dealer will.
Just like the war on alcohol, the war on drugs has failed. It has failed horribly. It is an enormous waste of time and money.
And alcohol is legal and much worse than marijuana because we learnt from our mistakes and legalized it because of all the reasons (well most of them. Alcohol isn't a very good medicine)

You have heard all of this. These are great arguments that you have never shown adaquate rebuttals to instead calling us names and using ad hominen to make yourself look unable to have an argument. You are among the only person left arguing against. When will you admit that we have won. That the answer is not business as usual, that something needs to change.
You will probably nver admit because you base your opinion on something you really know nothing about. You have never tried it. You think its this big scary drug that ruins everyone who uses it but because you will never try it you will never know what we are talking about about and by extension you will never know what you ara talking about.
Everything has been said. I think we all agree weed should be legalized and the arguments in this thread should be enough to convince. The next argument should be whether all drugs should be legalized like Portugal did.


derp derp derp derp derp

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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-12 23:24:50 Reply

..internet back again :P

Ceratisa wrote:
@Judge
Would you be opposed to a drug that somehow magically recreated the same relaxation you got without getting high?
Or would you find that unacceptable?

As i said, relaxation isn't a big part of it for me. I'm more creative or motivation user.
I helps me to focus on whatever important thing i'm doing. Like 'being in the now'.
Some people might study at length various forms of meditation for similar effects.
On a good day it puts you 'in the zone' and you can work on it very effectively for many hours.

The creative side needs care. There's a saying that every idea you have stoned seems brilliant, but not so great when you're straight again. A fairly common problem is getting really cool ideas, and then do nothing about them.
That's where depression sometimes arises. It's important to try to follow through on good ideas.
To explore them further, write them down, and work on them either straight or stoned later on.

Each person is different on how they use it.
There's a lot of stereotyping about being loser or dopey.
That's a case of believing what you want to believe.
Reality is it's been used as a gateway to religion, self-exploration, etc since we were primitive cavemen.

Even the issues with short-term memory i believe are more to do with how the brain is working
on a different fundamental level. It's like re-organizing your room into a better functioning design,
but then simply forgetting where you put something.

There's nothing really comparable to it, otherwise we'd be advocating that instead. ;)

.

Ceratisa
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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-13 00:14:16 Reply

At 2/12/13 08:02 PM, svenisgod wrote:
At 2/6/13 02:13 AM, Ceratisa wrote: Once again, you've failed to actually support marijuana. Just mention other stupid shit people do.
You've been in this thread a long long long time and you have heard literally evry argument we have.

Please give me more.

It will reduce crime

No it won't, decriminalization could do it better without increasing the supply that children have access too.

It allows those who have a problem with it to get help without social and legal persecution.

It is called counseling, you can already do it.

It reduces the amount of money cartels make (marijuana is still the most trafficked drug worldwide)

Not a valid argument unless it would actually get them off the streets, no they would probably push their harder drugs harder then ever.

It ensures that the product is free of harmful additives

How does it do this? While a more regulated distribution may help somewhat. The stuff people do to get a better high doesn't change.

It means law abiding citizens do not have to deal with criminals

That kind of argument just means, "What you aren't doing isn't illegal anymore"

It makes shittons of money for government.

Which would only help offset the cost from increased outreach and drug counseling programs for youths.

It is a great medicine that does not need to be controlled by big pharmacy

It would be controlled by "big pharmacy" if you are still mentioning the safer distribution regulations. Please choose one or the other.

Hemp is a great fibre and far superior as a paper.

Not remotely relevant to the use of marijuana as a drug.

Reasonable use can actually start to be advocated. Previously no one could speak of it that way for its illegality.

What is reasonable use? Getting high isn't reasonable use is it?

As a free society we should have a right to our own bodies.

Not a real argument unless you want to make that for harder drugs.

It harms no one bar ourselves. It makes no one aggressive, it calms people, within the scientific circle it is known to

promote brain development, it is not toxic, it has no physical addiction.
IT does not promote brain development
In another study, Barry Jacobs, a neuroscientist at Princeton University, gave mice the natural cannabinoid found in marijuana, THC (D9-tetrahydrocannabinol)). But he says he detected no neurogenesis, no matter what dose he gave or the length of time he gave it for. He will present his results at the Society for Neuroscience meeting in Washington DC in November.

Jacobs says it could be that HU210 and THC do not have the same effect on cell growth. It could also be the case that cannabinoids behave differently in different rodent species - which leaves open the question of how they behave in humans.

Zhang says more research is needed before it is clear whether cannabinoids could some day be used to treat depression in humans.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn8155-marijuana-might-c ause-new-cell-growth-in-the-brain.html
so THC no matter dosage had no effect

Legalization will keep it out of the hands of children more than a random drug dealer will.

No it won't it will increase at home supplies, there is no way that increasing supplies available at home and not decreasing them else where keeps it from kids.

Just like the war on alcohol, the war on drugs has failed. It has failed horribly. It is an enormous waste of time and money.

War on alcohol? Where is that the prohibition? I've proven how different the circumstances between them are already

And alcohol is legal and much worse than marijuana because we learnt from our mistakes and legalized it because of all the reasons (well most of them. Alcohol isn't a very good medicine)

I keep saying over and over again that mentioning how harmful Alcohol is, is not a pro marijuana argument.


You have heard all of this. These are great arguments that you have never shown adaquate rebuttals to instead calling us names and using ad hominen to make yourself look unable to have an argument. You are among the only person left arguing against. When will you admit that we have won. That the answer is not business as usual, that something needs to change.

Ad hominem where? The point I make that people who abuse a substances and objectively and without bias state its impact?
I'm probably the only person left because the same arguments are being brought up without any basis on reality. And quite honestly, you are insulting me to bring up hemp. To suggest that I know so little about it is insulting.

You will probably nver admit because you base your opinion on something you really know nothing about. You have never tried it. You think its this big scary drug that ruins everyone who uses it but because you will never try it you will never know what we are talking about about and by extension you will never know what you ara talking about.

I never tried it because it is known to dull your mental state and I respect my body. I haven't tried getting shot and I know I wouldn't like that either.

Everything has been said. I think we all agree weed should be legalized and the arguments in this thread should be enough to convince. The next argument should be whether all drugs should be legalized like Portugal did.

I think the arguments you brought up were among the weakest of your peers. So I'm confused are you pro legalize all drugs? Cause Portugal used to be a player in the world, not anymore.

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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-13 01:41:54 Reply

At 2/13/13 12:14 AM, Ceratisa wrote: [THC] does not promote brain development
In another study, Barry Jacobs, a neuroscientist at Princeton University, gave mice the natural cannabinoid found in marijuana, THC (D9-tetrahydrocannabinol)). But he says he detected no neurogenesis, no matter what dose he gave or the length of time he gave it for.

Seriously, comparing human-level consciousness to a mouse brain.. that has to be a joke.

"Promote brain development" is not referring to growing neurons, it's about opening un-tapped (dormant) neural connections and higher pathways.

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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-13 01:58:57 Reply

Seriously, comparing human-level consciousness to a mouse brain.. that has to be a joke.

(You don't understand anatomy if you think that is a joke.

"Promote brain development" is not referring to growing neurons, it's about opening un-tapped (dormant) neural connections and higher pathways.

You mean the pathways we form just by thinking? Can I have some sources on that, I'm honestly curious.

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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-13 05:23:49 Reply

I believe my argument for marijuana's legalization lies in our inability to regulate it while it is illegal. It is a substance that has a demand in the US, almost undeniably so. The demand sparks an issue- that people want to use a substance and could potentially bring harm to themselves (or children) in using it. Some ways of dealing with this issue, among others:

A) Make it increasingly difficult to obtain marijuana.

B) Legalize the drug and force people who sell it to submit to minor and/or major regulations.

C) Destroy all traces of the substance in the known universe.

C is of course impossible at this time, and A we've been trying for quite some time. I think as a society we should just accept that people use this drug recreationally, and act as damage control. At the moment we have slightly more money being untaxed and pocketed by necessarily illegal organizations, dealers who don't care about the age of people buying, and an endless amount of money being funneled through the legal system to slay a hydra that simply will not die. I'm open to other ideas if they are being offered, but recreational legalization seems a simple solution to this growing problem.

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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-13 06:15:07 Reply

At 2/13/13 01:58 AM, Ceratisa wrote: You mean the pathways we form just by thinking? Can I have some sources on that, I'm honestly curious.

I'm assuming in this context that neural pathways refers to connections between neurons through axons and dendrites. You don't form these by thinking, they are the process by which you think.

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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-13 06:58:14 Reply

This debate is still raging on I see?

Marijuana and hemp do have great medical and industrial potential. Smoking/vaporizing marijuana has the proven side effects of tar accumulation in the lungs and/or alters brain grey matter composition (what this ultimately means I don't know).

It isn't a fallacy to compare marijuana to alcohol and various forms of smoking, because of of these are considered drugs and potentially addictive substances. Comparing marijuana to overeating and heart disease, that's a long shot.

A concern for marijuana is potentially large amount of public smokers and only adding to the smoking epidemic that so many non profits have been trying to blow out. This is the only part of this that concerns me. I can easily tolerate cigarette smoke, but secondhand weed doesn't take long to make me seriously nauseous. When I'm enjoying my dinner outside at a restaurant, relaxing in a park, or walking down the sidewalk, I don't wan't the sensation of throwing up to hit me. It is seriously awful I don't know how people enjoy paying for a smoking weed. The solution to this? Smoking areas would need to meet federal requirements for proper venting and open air space.

If marijuana was legalized, would it have a greater negative influence on minors than if it remained illegal? I haven't found any evidence to suggest such a thing, so no.

Overall I'm absolutely in favor of legalizing marijuana. God knows the U.S. needs the tax revenue, my family has a history of Alzheimer's so I do want all treatment options to be available, and I'd like to see more competition in the timber/hemp industry and fewer slash pine tree farms.

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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-13 09:54:18 Reply

At 2/13/13 06:58 AM, Saen wrote: This debate is still raging on I see?

Marijuana and hemp do have great medical and industrial potential. Smoking/vaporizing marijuana has the proven side effects of tar accumulation in the lungs and/or alters brain grey matter composition (what this ultimately means I don't know).

First of all this is about recreational use.


It isn't a fallacy to compare marijuana to alcohol and various forms of smoking, because of of these are considered drugs and potentially addictive substances. Comparing marijuana to overeating and heart disease, that's a long shot.

I'm sick of arguing this point so I suggest both sides just drop it so we can actually debate things. What I say though is, if we do legalize it it should be as regulated as alcohol if not better because it is often smoked.


A concern for marijuana is potentially large amount of public smokers and only adding to the smoking epidemic that so many non profits have been trying to blow out. This is the only part of this that concerns me. I can easily tolerate cigarette smoke, but secondhand weed doesn't take long to make me seriously nauseous. When I'm enjoying my dinner outside at a restaurant, relaxing in a park, or walking down the sidewalk, I don't wan't the sensation of throwing up to hit me. It is seriously awful I don't know how people enjoy paying for a smoking weed. The solution to this? Smoking areas would need to meet federal requirements for proper venting and open air space.

I would hope so, it was so bad in my high school. seriously overwhelming in most of the hang out spots.


If marijuana was legalized, would it have a greater negative influence on minors than if it remained illegal? I haven't found any evidence to suggest such a thing, so no.

Just the increased supply would make it more available to children. Plenty of kids get access to their parents firearms. Maybe we can at least agree on major fines on parents whose children have been found to smoking their weed.


Overall I'm absolutely in favor of legalizing marijuana. God knows the U.S. needs the tax revenue, my family has a history of Alzheimer's so I do want all treatment options to be available, and I'd like to see more competition in the timber/hemp industry and fewer slash pine tree farms.

Hemp can be grown without the legalization of Marijuana.

Ceratisa
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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-13 10:06:59 Reply

At 2/13/13 06:15 AM, kryzyt wrote:
At 2/13/13 01:58 AM, Ceratisa wrote: You mean the pathways we form just by thinking? Can I have some sources on that, I'm honestly curious.
I'm assuming in this context that neural pathways refers to connections between neurons through axons and dendrites. You don't form these by thinking, they are the process by which you think.

Sorry I thought we were discussing the concept of Neuroplasticity. Which can alter the very way our brain functions through mental stimulation and exercises.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1580438,00.
html

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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-13 19:34:29 Reply

At 2/13/13 09:54 AM, Ceratisa wrote:
Just the increased supply would make it more available to children. Plenty of kids get access to their parents firearms. Maybe we can at least agree on major fines on parents whose children have been found to smoking their weed.

You are supposing that more children will have access when it's legalized, I disagree. Dealers don't card, they don't care who buys from them. I've had access to pot FAR before I had access to alcohol. Many people who smoke marijuana don't like that they are breaking the law in doing it, and if it was legalized for recreational use would avoid breaking the law with it.

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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-13 19:44:15 Reply

At 2/13/13 07:34 PM, kryzyt wrote:
At 2/13/13 09:54 AM, Ceratisa wrote:
Just the increased supply would make it more available to children. Plenty of kids get access to their parents firearms. Maybe we can at least agree on major fines on parents whose children have been found to smoking their weed.
You are supposing that more children will have access when it's legalized, I disagree. Dealers don't card, they don't care who buys from them. I've had access to pot FAR before I had access to alcohol. Many people who smoke marijuana don't like that they are breaking the law in doing it, and if it was legalized for recreational use would avoid breaking the law with it.

SO kids can't smoke their parents pot? yeah okay. OH no people who are breaking the law don't like that it is illegal. They would like it to be legal so they can do it without breaking the law? I'm sure that can be said about many things.

Decriminalization does the same thing, but back to the first point, do you really think parents who can't even keep guns away from their children can keep their drugs locked up? Wait we already know the answer to that, children take their parents prescribed drugs all the time.

How can you justify increasing how many minors are likely to be exposed to Marijuana?

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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-14 00:32:01 Reply

Wow man.... haha fuck this thread. The points have been made i'm just glad the majority will vote for legalization. It shows progresswill happen.


derp derp derp derp derp

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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-14 01:38:48 Reply

At 2/14/13 12:32 AM, svenisgod wrote: Wow man.... haha fuck this thread. The points have been made i'm just glad the majority will vote for legalization. It shows progresswill happen.

Band Wagon makes things valid after all.

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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-14 02:09:05 Reply

At 2/13/13 07:44 PM, Ceratisa wrote: SO kids can't smoke their parents pot? yeah okay. OH no people who are breaking the law don't like that it is illegal. They would like it to be legal so they can do it without breaking the law? I'm sure that can be said about many things.

My point in mentioning they don't like breaking the law is an attempt to state that they would likely avoid breaking the law (and giving it to children) if they could.

Decriminalization does the same thing, but back to the first point, do you really think parents who can't even keep guns away from their children can keep their drugs locked up? Wait we already know the answer to that, children take their parents prescribed drugs all the time.

I believe that we shouldn't assume the entire population of marijuana smokers are going to just leave this drug lying around for their children. I know its hard to believe, but many parents take active measures to prevent their children from doing things that can be harmful to a growing body. Again, I think the number of dealers willing to sell to children outnumber the number of adults who would give children access to the legal drug. Lets assume that 60% of adults would be willing to give drugs to kids, a wild figure. 99.9% of illegal dealers would be willing to sell to children.

How can you justify increasing how many minors are likely to be exposed to Marijuana?

You respond to my point that minors would not have as much access to the drug by stating they would have access to the drug.

kryzyt
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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-14 02:11:12 Reply

At 2/14/13 01:38 AM, Ceratisa wrote:
At 2/14/13 12:32 AM, svenisgod wrote: Wow man.... haha fuck this thread. The points have been made i'm just glad the majority will vote for legalization. It shows progresswill happen.
Band Wagon makes things valid after all.

I don't think he was stating that this was a good reason for legalization, just saying how happy he was that his opinion seems to be in the majority. You seem to be a rational guy, please don't stoop to ad hominems.

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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-14 02:23:44 Reply

At 2/14/13 02:09 AM, kryzyt wrote:
At 2/13/13 07:44 PM, Ceratisa wrote: SO kids can't smoke their parents pot? yeah okay. OH no people who are breaking the law don't like that it is illegal. They would like it to be legal so they can do it without breaking the law? I'm sure that can be said about many things.
My point in mentioning they don't like breaking the law is an attempt to state that they would likely avoid breaking the law (and giving it to children) if they could.

Decriminalization does the same thing, but back to the first point, do you really think parents who can't even keep guns away from their children can keep their drugs locked up? Wait we already know the answer to that, children take their parents prescribed drugs all the time.
I believe that we shouldn't assume the entire population of marijuana smokers are going to just leave this drug lying around for their children. I know its hard to believe, but many parents take active measures to prevent their children from doing things that can be harmful to a growing body. Again, I think the number of dealers willing to sell to children outnumber the number of adults who would give children access to the legal drug. Lets assume that 60% of adults would be willing to give drugs to kids, a wild figure. 99.9% of illegal dealers would be willing to sell to children.

No, that isn't the what I'm saying. Not every kid get his hands on his parent's gun either, but one is enough for most isn't it? While I will not claim a majority will or will not, I believe there will be enough irresponsible parents who don't secure their drugs (Many are already poor at this like I said) to make it a very legitimate issue for our youth.

Also, just because it becomes legalized doesn't mean drug dealers stop dealing to children either. In some ways we may have made it easier for them to push their product on kids because part of the risk (possession) has been removed.
In the end, I cannot honestly imagine a legalization process where more minors don't get exposed to the drug. Can you give me a few ways we could actually reduce the likelihood of the scenarios i mentioned either through regulation or stricter legal action against dealers? Ones you would personally be in favor of? I


How can you justify increasing how many minors are likely to be exposed to Marijuana?
You respond to my point that minors would not have as much access to the drug by stating they would have access to the drug.

See response above I guess.

kryzyt
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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-14 02:42:23 Reply

At 2/14/13 02:23 AM, Ceratisa wrote: No, that isn't the what I'm saying. Not every kid get his hands on his parent's gun either, but one is enough for most isn't it? While I will not claim a majority will or will not, I believe there will be enough irresponsible parents who don't secure their drugs (Many are already poor at this like I said) to make it a very legitimate issue for our youth.

It will be an issue, but the real question, that I'm willing to admit is a good question, is whether the amount of children who get pot from adults will outweigh the amount of children who already get pot from illegal sources.

Also, just because it becomes legalized doesn't mean drug dealers stop dealing to children either. In some ways we may have made it easier for them to push their product on kids because part of the risk (possession) has been removed.

Yes, but we also have destroyed their entire business model. Post-prohibition mobsters didn't stay in business by selling to children.

In the end, I cannot honestly imagine a legalization process where more minors don't get exposed to the drug. Can you give me a few ways we could actually reduce the likelihood of the scenarios i mentioned either through regulation or stricter legal action against dealers? Ones you would personally be in favor of?

I'm fine with forcing people to go to holed up dispenseries, guarded by armed guards and auto-turrets. Or having to have a doctors note and legal document stating they are capable of healthily taking the drug, and they are of sound mind not to sell to children, I don't really care, I just feel that illegal it presents a major driving force to illegal organizations trying to gain power in our country. I feel you are overstating the immorality of American adults, when compared to the immorality of common drug dealers. We have at this moment a demand for mind altering substances in our youth, this is the core of the issue you are presenting. I feel if we must use government resources to root out the problem of substance abuse in minors, perhaps it would be better to spend those resources in hiring proper counseling and education as to what the negative merits of these drugs are, not establishing these drugs as some dark cryptic monster that seems edgy and appealing to our rebellious teens.

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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-14 03:00:02 Reply

At 2/14/13 02:42 AM, kryzyt wrote:
At 2/14/13 02:23 AM, Ceratisa wrote: No, that isn't the what I'm saying. Not every kid get his hands on his parent's gun either, but one is enough for most isn't it? While I will not claim a majority will or will not, I believe there will be enough irresponsible parents who don't secure their drugs (Many are already poor at this like I said) to make it a very legitimate issue for our youth.
It will be an issue, but the real question, that I'm willing to admit is a good question, is whether the amount of children who get pot from adults will outweigh the amount of children who already get pot from illegal sources.

Also, just because it becomes legalized doesn't mean drug dealers stop dealing to children either. In some ways we may have made it easier for them to push their product on kids because part of the risk (possession) has been removed.
Yes, but we also have destroyed their entire business model. Post-prohibition mobsters didn't stay in business by selling to children.

Not really a valid comparison because the percentage of current minors using pot is much greater then could ever be marketable in alcohol. Not trying to be mean, just saying it is more comparable to tobacco being targeted towards children (which continues to this day really)

In the end, I cannot honestly imagine a legalization process where more minors don't get exposed to the drug. Can you give me a few ways we could actually reduce the likelihood of the scenarios i mentioned either through regulation or stricter legal action against dealers? Ones you would personally be in favor of?
I'm fine with forcing people to go to holed up dispenseries, guarded by armed guards and auto-turrets. Or having to have a doctors note and legal document stating they are capable of healthily taking the drug, and they are of sound mind not to sell to children, I don't really care, I just feel that illegal it presents a major driving force to illegal organizations trying to gain power in our country. I feel you are overstating the immorality of American adults, when compared to the immorality of common drug dealers. We have at this moment a demand for mind altering substances in our youth, this is the core of the issue you are presenting. I feel if we must use government resources to root out the problem of substance abuse in minors, perhaps it would be better to spend those resources in hiring proper counseling and education as to what the negative merits of these drugs are, not establishing these drugs as some dark cryptic monster that seems edgy and appealing to our rebellious teens.

With all that said, is legalization really necessary or is decriminalization more realistic? I still don't think you understand the issue about the common american adult isn't immorality. The "normal" parent who is not utterly controlling cannot control every aspect of their children's life. And if not about being "controlling" it is about simple negligence. Parents aren't going to do it on purpose (I hope) but it will happen.
And I still don't see how we could stop dealers from still pushing their drugs to kids, who more than ever become their primary target.

On your counseling and education comments. My state already spends a great deal on it. It doesn't really stop it from being one of the states with the highest pot abuse in youths. (decriminalization in my state)

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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-14 21:58:57 Reply

At 2/13/13 01:58 AM, Ceratisa wrote:
Seriously, comparing human-level consciousness to a mouse brain.. that has to be a joke.
You don't understand anatomy if you think that is a joke.

Even basic (assumed) similarity of mouse and human anatomy have proven false.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/12/science/testing-of-some-de adly-diseases-on-mice-mislead-report-says.html

âEUoeItâEUTMs amazingâEU

âEUoeThis is a game changerâEU

"It helps explain why every one of nearly 150 drugs tested at a huge expense in patients with sepsis has failed. The drug tests all were based on studies in mice. And mice, it turns out, can have something that looks like sepsis in humans, but is very different from the condition in humans."

âEUoeThey were so used to doing mouse studies that they thought that was how you validate things,âEU he said. âEUoeThey are so ingrained in trying to cure mice that they forget we are trying to cure humans.âEU

âEUoeThat started us thinking.. Is it the same in the mouse or not?âEU

The group decided to look, expecting to find some similarities.
But when the data was analyzed, there were none at all.

âEUoeWe were kind of blown away,âEU

You mean the pathways we form just by thinking?
...Neuroplasticity. Which can alter the very way our brain functions through mental stimulation and exercises.

Correct.

The way our traditional education system works is that we spend (on average) about 20 years having stuff poured into our brains in classroom settings. We head off to class everyday not expecting to be challenged unless there's an expected test. If you think of the brain as a sponge, designed simply to mop up knowledge then that's fine. And this is certainly true when we are young..

"Once the child is born, the billions of neurons start to interact with each other creating neural pathways within the nervous system. Since each individual neuron can make at least 15,000 new connections, there are infinite amount of connections and circuitry can be established to form a childâEUTMs experience and capabilities. The reason behind this is because the brain is the most malleable during these early years."

The implication here is that the brain becomes much less malleable with age. When taught formally for 20 years it becomes almost rigid. It may also depends on what you do with your free time, but many of us are "sponges" at home as much as when in school because that is what society valued the most. And knowledge of many subjects is great, but it is wasted without the creative spark needed to synthesize that knowledge. Today this problem is best expressed as "Who needs years and years of memorized knowledge when i have Google or Wikipedia always at my fingertips?"

So where does our creative spark come from? This is what we're really asking when talking about mental stimulation and exercises. Here we can look back to one of the most creative individuals of our age; Einstein said âEUoeWhen I examine myself and my methods of thought, I come to the conclusion that the gift of fantasy has meant more to me than my talent for absorbing positive knowledge.âEU

And what is Fantasy? For most of us it's when we dream at night. We're able to let go our conscious minds and drift off into an unconscious creative state. There we evaluate our past, present and future in very uncontrolled and abstract ways. But unfortunately we are left almost completely unaware of the processes and conclusions, except for brief glimpses as we start to return to consciousness when we wake up.

Meditation or drugs on the other hand offer us an ability to journey into a higher abstracted state whilst still retaining conscious control of our thoughts in order to focus on specific ideas. This 'ease of transition' is one appeal of taking drugs.

.

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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-14 22:02:55 Reply

geez. now quotes are not handled correctly?! lol

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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-15 12:18:15 Reply

At 2/14/13 02:23 AM, Ceratisa wrote: No, that isn't the what I'm saying. Not every kid get his hands on his parent's gun either, but one is enough for most isn't it?

If we even save one child...

While I will not claim a majority will or will not, I believe there will be enough irresponsible parents who don't secure their drugs (Many are already poor at this like I said) to make it a very legitimate issue for our youth.

The important question is will there be more parents doing than there are now, not whether it will happen because it does and certainly will continue to happen.

Also, just because it becomes legalized doesn't mean drug dealers stop dealing to children either. In some ways we may have made it easier for them to push their product on kids because part of the risk (possession) has been removed.

What makes you think that people will still deal weed on the street if it's completely legalized? Dispensaries will pop up or it will just start showing up in stores next to the alcohol and tobacco. Hell in few years we'll have brand names. Cannabis culture only exists because weed is illegal and it will disappear if it becomes legal on the national level. No one goes to a dealer to buy wine anymore. The only way I can see it surviving is if it's unreasonably restricted or remains illegal in many areas, then you'd still get something different like the coffee shops in Amsterdam or whatever. Owners of legitimate businesses will not want to risk losing it for a few sales to children.

In the end, I cannot honestly imagine a legalization process where more minors don't get exposed to the drug.

Like others have said the illegal dealers now have no problem selling to minors. When it's legal there will at least be an age limit. Your only real argument is that more people (including parents) will start doing it when it becomes legal. How are you backing this up? In countries where drugs have been legalized the exact opposite trend has been noted.

Can you give me a few ways we could actually reduce the likelihood of the scenarios i mentioned either through regulation or stricter legal action against dealers? Ones you would personally be in favor of?

Regulation will just encourage more illicit activity. You said it yourself, kids will always find a way to get weed. Like I said your entire argument rests on your assumption that the amount of users will increase when the drug becomes legal which you simply can't support.

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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-15 20:42:54 Reply

I'm sorry entice, that has to be some of the weakest counter argument yet.
Your post basically amounts to, it already happens so, why not? Really reading over it all you say nothing to actually focus on the ILLEGAL SALE (not legitimate businesses popping up and selling it) to minors.
You go on to assume that somehow just because it becomes legal for adults drug dealers will stop selling to kids because the "culture" will disappear? Are you suggesting the kids wanting to get high will disappear?

If you want to compare us to say the Netherlands you better be advocating the same super tight restrictions against minors they have. Only adults being allowed to enter places where it is consumed.
"The Dutch have reduced the street market. Since adults can go into coffee shops, there are fewer street dealers, and since there are fewer street dealers, that reduces the opportunities for teenagers to go buy from someone on the street."

But see most legalization doesn't deal with that. It has to do with carrying legally and dispensing the drug.
When the legality of it increases drastically, the availability increases drastically. You honestly can't suggest otherwise.

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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-16 05:29:38 Reply

At 2/15/13 08:42 PM, Ceratisa wrote: Only adults being allowed to enter places where it is consumed.

That's just a given because it's usually smoked and the effects can hit other people in the general area. It's not "super tight restrictions".

You go on to assume that somehow just because it becomes legal for adults drug dealers will stop selling to kids because the "culture" will disappear? Are you suggesting the kids wanting to get high will disappear?

I'm just saying that the illicit trade will appear if it becomes illegal because well, if it's already legal why take the risk of selling it illegally? Hence the street market will disappear.

"The Dutch have reduced the street market. Since adults can go into coffee shops, there are fewer street dealers, and since there are fewer street dealers, that reduces the opportunities for teenagers to go buy from someone on the street."

Yes exactly.

When the legality of it increases drastically, the availability increases drastically. You honestly can't suggest otherwise.

Love how you again repeated this without backing it up. Demand won't necessarily increase if weed becomes illegal and supply won't increase unless demand does.

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Response to Should marijuana be legalized? 2013-02-16 15:57:43 Reply

At 2/16/13 05:29 AM, Entice wrote:
At 2/15/13 08:42 PM, Ceratisa wrote: Only adults being allowed to enter places where it is consumed.
That's just a given because it's usually smoked and the effects can hit other people in the general area. It's not "super tight restrictions".

You go on to assume that somehow just because it becomes legal for adults drug dealers will stop selling to kids because the "culture" will disappear? Are you suggesting the kids wanting to get high will disappear?
I'm just saying that the illicit trade will appear if it becomes illegal because well, if it's already legal why take the risk of selling it illegally? Hence the street market will disappear.

"The Dutch have reduced the street market. Since adults can go into coffee shops, there are fewer street dealers, and since there are fewer street dealers, that reduces the opportunities for teenagers to go buy from someone on the street."
Yes exactly.

When the legality of it increases drastically, the availability increases drastically. You honestly can't suggest otherwise.
Love how you again repeated this without backing it up. Demand won't necessarily increase if weed becomes illegal and supply won't increase unless demand does.

You can't say otherwise, because it is still controlled with the Dutch. And all a dealer would have to do is have smaller amounts on his person. That way he can claim personal use if stopped. Drug dealers break the law, you can't compare the Netherlands where you consume it in cafes and the legalization push here where you can carry like a pound of it.