Religion

[nrlegend]

In my opinion religion is detrimental to the progress of society, because it is a product that sells off fear, enables those who want to achieve power a position, and pushes people to the insane thoughts such as if they kill themselves and thousands of other supposed "infidels", they will be met in heaven by 70 virgins. Because, it seems before we figured out to compromise and live together, we learned how to kill each other en masse. Not only that but, these ideas impede on scientific discovery, and the open mindedness of society itself. And to those who say that religions such as christianity, have done so many good things, I ask you "for what price?" and I find it a little insulting that you need any other reason to help people, other than just to help people.

But that is just my opinion

I wrote this to find out yours.

Be honest, you are allowed to descent and debate.

[zero-gravity]

If you knew anything about the Catholic church and development of society from 300 AD to about the end of the middle ages, you would immediately take back EVERYTHING you just said.

Religion primarily does two things:

It provides a means of control and order.
It provides hope and encouragement.

[nrlegend]

At 7/21/09 07:49 PM, zero-gravity wrote: If you knew anything about the Catholic church and development of society from 300 AD to about the end of the middle ages, you would immediately take back EVERYTHING you just said.

Religion primarily does two things:

It provides a means of control and order.
It provides hope and encouragement

I really thought after 2000 years we would able to get our morals under wrap. I'm talking about now, where the only group with the ambition to obtain and detonate a nuclear weapon is an islamic radicalist group. Besides Roman Catholics aren't the most extreme, on the contrary they are pretty open -minded.

[yurgenburgen]

At 7/21/09 07:49 PM, zero-gravity wrote: Religion primarily does two things:

It provides a means of control and order.

If that were true, places with higher levels of religious interest would have much lower crime rates than the more Atheistic areas, when it's actually the opposite. What you've just said could easily be applied to Communism; that it provides a means of control and order. Yeah, it does, but it involves brainwashing people and forcing them to behave in a certain way out of fear, which is the same way that religion thrives.

It provides hope and encouragement.

Religion is often utilised by people who are terminally ill as a source of hope and comfort, which is entirely understandable and I fully empathise with anyone lying in a hospital bed who turns to 'god' for hope and whatever else. In that sense, yes, religion provides hope and encouragement, but for the rest of society, it's really just a burden.

[OddlyPoetic]

The real Question is, did Jesus like tacos or cake?

[zero-gravity]

At 7/21/09 07:59 PM, nrlegend wrote:

I really thought after 2000 years we would able to get our morals under wrap. I'm talking about now, where the only group with the ambition to obtain and detonate a nuclear weapon is an islamic radicalist group. Besides Roman Catholics aren't the most extreme, on the contrary they are pretty open -minded.

Yet you said the entirety of religion is the problem. Don't set double standards after the fact.

[zero-gravity]

At 7/21/09 08:05 PM, yurgenburgen wrote:

If that were true, places with higher levels of religious interest would have much lower crime rates than the more Atheistic areas, when it's actually the opposite. What you've just said could easily be applied to Communism; that it provides a means of control and order. Yeah, it does, but it involves brainwashing people and forcing them to behave in a certain way out of fear, which is the same way that religion thrives.

Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything. Also, i have never heard of more religious places having a higher crime rate than other places save the middle east.

Religion is often utilised by people who are terminally ill as a source of hope and comfort, which is entirely understandable and I fully empathise with anyone lying in a hospital bed who turns to 'god' for hope and whatever else. In that sense, yes, religion provides hope and encouragement, but for the rest of society, it's really just a burden.

but it also provides them hope. having burden does not necessarily mean you don't have hope. Religions brings in the point of saying: "Don't worry guys!! There IS something after death!!" which may or may not be true.

[nrlegend]

I was just saying it was the lesser of the evils. It still needs to be recognized as an obstruction to society. Religion doesn't need to be banned, it just has to stop being force fed to the masses, people need to realize their own truths and morals, not those in a book.

[nrlegend]

Oh, I forgot to say this in the original post. The only appropriate disposition we should have towards the subject of religion is doubt, not the certainty that religion offers.

[yurgenburgen]

At 7/21/09 08:15 PM, zero-gravity wrote: Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything. Also, i have never heard of more religious places having a higher crime rate than other places save the middle east.

Well, now you have. That article talks about the US and the UK.

And if we specifically look at the US, the states with the highest levels of church attendance also have (by far) the highest violent crime rates. Unsurprisingly, the states with the lowest levels of church attendance have violent crime rates which are well below the national average. Now, at this point I am not suggesting that the cause of these crimes is in almost all cases religion (and even if that were true, it isn't my point anyway), but what these statistics do prove is that Atheism doesn't lead to chaos and murder and destruction, so the idea that religion somehow provides 'control' and 'order' is bullshit, because if it did, the states with higher levels of religious interest would have similairly low crime rates to the more Atheistic states.

but it also provides them hope. having burden does not necessarily mean you don't have hope.

Hahaha, yeah, when someone has the burden of religion breathing down their neck they should look on the bright side and realise that they can 'hope' that it will go away. Praise the lord.

Religions brings in the point of saying: "Don't worry guys!! There IS something after death!!" which may or may not be true.

So you're saying it's better to live your life being constantly lied to? You said yourself that the afterlife may not be true, and yet you're happy for people to go about their lives, tolerating all kinds of shit, and turning the other cheek because they are convinced that heaven awaits them even though you can't prove it? What nonsense. All this does is support the argument that religion brainwashes people. You've just proved my point in what you just said. Incredible.

[Ravariel]

At 7/21/09 08:07 PM, OddlyPoetic wrote: The real Question is, did Jesus like tacos or cake?

Would it have to be one or the other?

Because seriously... who doesn't like tacos or cake?

mmm, taco cake... or cake taco, the possibilities are endless!

[zero-gravity]

At 7/21/09 08:33 PM, yurgenburgen wrote:

Well, now you have. That article talks about the US and the UK.

And if we specifically look at the US, the states with the highest levels of church attendance also have (by far) the highest violent crime rates. Unsurprisingly, the states with the lowest levels of church attendance have violent crime rates which are well below the national average. Now, at this point I am not suggesting that the cause of these crimes is in almost all cases religion (and even if that were true, it isn't my point anyway), but what these statistics do prove is that Atheism doesn't lead to chaos and murder and destruction, so the idea that religion somehow provides 'control' and 'order' is bullshit, because if it did, the states with higher levels of religious interest would have similairly low crime rates to the more Atheistic states.

Except that article never discussed social class, culture, etc. it simply bashed religion w/o looking at the other variable involved. Back in the day when there was virtually no moral development among anybody, you needed to be religious or else go fucking insane because you didn't have the moral development to be able to handle "THERE IS NO FUCKING GOD".

Hahaha, yeah, when someone has the burden of religion breathing down their neck they should look on the bright side and realise that they can 'hope' that it will go away. Praise the lord.

Yea, that is completely the point. Thx for agreeing with me.

So you're saying it's better to live your life being constantly lied to? You said yourself that the afterlife may not be true, and yet you're happy for people to go about their lives, tolerating all kinds of shit, and turning the other cheek because they are convinced that heaven awaits them even though you can't prove it? What nonsense. All this does is support the argument that religion brainwashes people. You've just proved my point in what you just said. Incredible.

But you never proved that it doesn't exist. And if you believe it doesn't exist than really NOTHING in this universe matters, so why spoil the fun for them if they don't benefit from being made aware?

[OddlyPoetic]

At 7/21/09 08:34 PM, Ravariel wrote:

At 7/21/09 08:07 PM, OddlyPoetic wrote: The real Question is, did Jesus like tacos or cake?

Would it have to be one or the other?

Because seriously... who doesn't like tacos or cake?

mmm, taco cake... or cake taco, the possibilities are endless!

It would be great if it turned out that Jesus was a stoner that just chilled all day and made-mad-good food combos....

[yurgenburgen]

At 7/21/09 08:42 PM, zero-gravity wrote: Except that article never discussed social class, culture, etc. it simply bashed religion w/o looking at the other variable involved. Back in the day when there was virtually no moral development among anybody, you needed to be religious or else go fucking insane because you didn't have the moral development to be able to handle "THERE IS NO FUCKING GOD".

No. Back in the day people 'needed' to be religious because they were killed if they said they weren't. Even today in many parts of the world people are still executed for questioning their nation's official faith. Fuck knows how bad it was thousands of years ago.

Yea, that is completely the point. Thx for agreeing with me.

I wasn't agreeing with you. What you said is just as ridiculous as if you'd said that it's good to have a hangover because you can look forward to being well again.

But you never proved that it doesn't exist. And if you believe it doesn't exist than really NOTHING in this universe matters, so why spoil the fun for them if they don't benefit from being made aware?

You have no evidence to even suggest that an afterlife exists, yet you are saying that it might, and that it's completely acceptable to brainwash people into thinking it does. The burden of proof doesn't lie with me. You are the one making claims you can't back up, so you are the one who should be providing evidence to support these claims.

Let's say you and I knew each other personally, and I told you that last night I had fucked thirty bikini models in a row. You'd probably say, "Prove it", or words to that effect. If I replied with "No. You prove that I didn't", taking this stance would be entirely unjustified (not to mention childish) on my part because I was the one who made the original claim. If I am claiming things to be true, then it's my responsibility to provide evidence for them. If I can't, then it's safe to say that I would be trying to deliberately deceive you for some reason.

[nrlegend]

At 7/21/09 08:42 PM, zero-gravity wrote:

Except that article never discussed social class, culture, etc. it simply bashed religion w/o looking at the other variable involved. Back in the day when there was virtually no moral development among anybody, you needed to be religious or else go fucking insane because you didn't have the moral development to be able to handle "THERE IS NO FUCKING GOD".

Exactly, "back in the day", I think by now we have a good grip on morals.

Hahaha, yeah, when someone has the burden of religion breathing down their neck they should look on the bright side and realise that they can 'hope' that it will go away. Praise the lord.

Yea, that is completely the point. Thx for agreeing with me.

he's being sarcastic asshole

But you never proved that it doesn't exist. And if you believe it doesn't exist than really NOTHING in this universe matters, so why spoil the fun for them if they don't benefit from being made aware?

No, the future matters , a better day, that is what we should hope for, not the afterlife and rapture. We should live for tomorrow, and try to make this a better place to live.

See we realize that this planet is the only place we have and if we fuck it up, we're screwed

[Dekagaru]

At 7/21/09 08:07 PM, OddlyPoetic wrote: The real Question is, did Jesus like tacos or cake?

Cake of course, what are you? Stupid?

[dySWN]

Clearly, some people just can't use the search bar...

[zero-gravity]

At 7/21/09 09:36 PM, Dekagaru wrote:

At 7/21/09 08:07 PM, OddlyPoetic wrote: The real Question is, did Jesus like tacos or cake?

Cake of course, what are you? Stupid?

The cake is a lie.

To the rest of you: Nihilism. Now lets stop arguing bitterly before we derail into a flame war beyond all other, because SOME of us have already brought out insults.

[Malachy]

Please use the search bar prior to creating a new thread. There is an ample of opportunities to voice your own opinion on religion in the number of other religion-related threads currently active, many within the Politics Forum.