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At 6/25/09 03:30 PM, lVlad wrote: 1. You cant change someones mind by arguing about something abstract which cannot be proven.
Millions of people throughout history have either joined or switched faiths because they were convinced by anothers arguments and or claims. Thus, it is possible and allows for the pleasure and knowledge to be exposed and enjoyed. Angry arguments help root out weaknesses in arguments and later allowing them to be altered.

Assuming we're talking about adult converts, people usually join/switch religions because of the actions of believers, not convincing arguments. Take, for example, the Lutheran church. It has become the largest Christian denomination in Africa because its mission projects seek to provide food, shelter, and medical care before offering spiritual sustenance, not because they throw pamphlets with arguments on them.

it is ignorant to assume that only the physical world exists. Thats like someone who was raised in a cardboard box just assuming that only everything inside the box exists. They dont have an open mind.

Anyway, i guess atheism allows teenagers to express identity but damn why be so arrogant.

You will never, ever be able to change the minds of billions of people who have lived and millions upon millions who are living

SO SHUT THE FUCK UP

atheists can be just as disrespecting as christian fanatics

At 6/26/09 09:48 PM, lVlad wrote: it is ignorant to assume that only the physical world exists. Thats like someone who was raised in a cardboard box just assuming that only everything inside the box exists. They dont have an open mind.

Is it not also ignorant to assume that only one interpretation of the spiritual world is correct, though?

Anyway, i guess atheism allows teenagers to express identity but damn why be so arrogant.

SO SHUT THE FUCK UP

atheists can be just as disrespecting as christian fanatics

The main difference being atheists don't usually kill people in the name of atheism, since atheism is almost always merely a coincidental characteristic of their personal philosophies.

No one forms their ethics and philosophies around the idea of their NOT being a god, it's a side-factor.

No, argueing about religion is NOT good because nothing comes out of it, it's a waste of time and it's frankly ignorant.

Discussing religion is cool, but there is nothing to argue about. What could possibly come from argueing about who's deities are more imaginary or who's beliefs are more righteous?

Just live by whatever standards you wish. Nobody else has to be involved.

At 6/26/09 09:48 PM, lVlad wrote: it is ignorant to assume that only the physical world exists. Thats like someone who was raised in a cardboard box just assuming that only everything inside the box exists. They dont have an open mind.

As Tancrisism already said it is much more close minded to assume that one's singular prophecy is true.

Anyway, i guess atheism allows teenagers to express identity but damn why be so arrogant.

The irony here amuses me ( No offense) Seee above comment.

You will never, ever be able to change the minds of billions of people who have lived and millions upon millions who are living

AS religion progresses, it is very gradual, Christianity won't faze out in your lifetime or mine probably not until your 10th generation. I am not certain of this but I think that its influence will decline in the next 200 years.

SO SHUT THE FUCK UP

No thanks. You made this topic so deal with the responses.

atheists can be just as disrespecting as christian fanatics

Different. An atheist's disrespect, ( Which I find extremely degrading to people of religion) is to claim that they have superior intelligence to a religious follower. This is different from a Christian fanatics disrespect which is to limit the rights of everyone who opposes their beliefs.

No it's not because neither side enters the Argument thinking they might be wrong but Instead thinks The other side Is stupid and must he converted to my way of thinking because my way is right and yours is wrong. All of you stop wasting your time and go do better things with your life like fap to porn or look at Lolcats,

The Cult of Cthulhu is now hiring Human sacrifice to the dark one Supplicants Must have a willing desire for madness World ending Terror and Calamari. please deposit your soul at the nearest Esoteric order of Dagon. Cthulhu Fthagan

At 6/26/09 09:48 PM, lVlad wrote: it is ignorant to assume that only the physical world exists. Thats like someone who was raised in a cardboard box just assuming that only everything inside the box exists. They dont have an open mind.

It is kind of an atheist reasonable point. You can assume that a lot of things exists. You can assume that if there is a close door somewhere that behind that door there is a world of giants. (as in MIB II) The main issue however is if these assumptions make you any less of person to live with.

Anyway, i guess atheism allows teenagers to express identity but damn why be so arrogant.

I concur to this. In these religious versus atheist debates a lot of insulting terms are flung around. That's maybe what entices me to stand up for the religious perspective, even though I am not Christian myself.

You will never, ever be able to change the minds of billions of people who have lived and millions upon millions who are living

SO SHUT THE FUCK UP

You have just killed your own thread. You stated that you can discuss about religion and that it is fruitful and now you swiped that a way with 3 lines. I am disappointed.

At 6/26/09 09:48 PM, lVlad wrote: it is ignorant to assume that only the physical world exists.

It is ignorant to make assertions without backing them up and expect people to happily agree with you.

No evidence = none acceptance.

Thats like someone who was raised in a cardboard box just assuming that only everything inside the box exists. They dont have an open mind.

And yet you're the one who isn't open to opposing opinions because people are refuting your statements yet you completely ignore them.

Once again, A box isn't expanding and does not contain millions of galaxies. A universe is a universe and a box is a box. Stop using piss poor analogies to compensate for your lack of 'physical' proof.

Anyway, i guess atheism allows teenagers to express identity but damn why be so arrogant.

That's right because the definition of Atheism states you must be arrogant.

Oh wait, no it doesn't.

But seriously, theists are ones making absolutes on the how the universe was made, why we're here, where were going etc etc. So who's arrogant?

You will never, ever be able to change the minds of billions of people who have lived and millions upon millions who are living

You cannot change the mind of someone deceased. If that's what you mean when you say lived.

Additionally I've already stated in a previous post not everyone is here to change the minds of others.

SO SHUT THE FUCK UP

I will if you go first.

atheists can be just as disrespecting as christian fanatics

When Theists spend the majority of their time shoving their beliefs down your throat can you be surprised?

At 6/27/09 05:21 AM, RubberTrucky wrote:

The main issue however is if these assumptions make you any less of person to live with.

If you're a person who's prone to magical thinking, then you're a weak link in a society. You're like a big soft hole where assholes can seep through to control you and use you against everyone else who wants to live free of your bullshit.

People think that it's harmless, but it's NOT harmless, it's the root of a ton of modern problems from people opposing vaccinations, softening science in school, making crazy laws against homosexuality, allowing charlatans to seel shit cures in pharmacies...
IT all piles up and creates a pretty big, tangible body count and a waste of money for everyone.

One second you're playing with your ouija board and the next you're buying tiger penis medicine for your back acne and denying blood transfusion to your kids in case the magic sky ghost punishes them in the spirit world.

Anyway, i guess atheism allows teenagers to express identity but damn why be so arrogant.

No, why are YOU so arrogant? Why do you deny reality and then DEMAND that others respect you for it?That's the height of arrogance, not matter how polite you act about it.

I'll say it again: religious people ARE FUCKING STUPID.
Prove me wrong, please, anyone! PROVE ME WRONG.

At 6/26/09 06:26 PM, SeaBoundRhino wrote: Religion is the excuse used by the country or a person to start a war. It doesn't say in any sacred texts to start wars. The religion does nothing, therefore you are wrong.

Exept religion leaders used their powers to start wars, look at the crusades, look at islam now. Therefore I am perfectly right. Now it dosen,t happen anymore because modern societies know ti's bullshit, so they can,t anymore.

Also a generic line for everyone in this thread:
There are 2 kind of persons,
Thinkers and BELIEVERS.

Assuming that most of us here want to get rid of religion (which I hope isn't true) it's good to argue for the sole purpose of establishing our expressed views on an extremely controversial subject, as the conflict in religion is very high nowadays.

I'd also like to add that getting rid of religion is unconstituonal. Everybody always gripes about how much Thomas Jefferson hated religion and such, but he clearly gave us freedom of religion. So in theory, if there was no religion we would be violating the constitution and we would no longer have our freedom as this freedom wouldn't exist anymore. This is what people throughout our nation's history have fought and died for and for us to eradicate that freedom (especially by destroying all religion) is simply insulting our dead.

At 6/27/09 10:46 AM, poxpower wrote:
If you're a person who's prone to magical thinking, then you're a weak link in a society. You're like a big soft hole where assholes can seep through to control you and use you against everyone else who wants to live free of your bullshit.

Holy friggin shit! We're poisoning our youths minds with telling them fairytales and making them believe in Santa and the Easter bunny.

People think that it's harmless, but it's NOT harmless, it's the root of a ton of modern problems from people opposing vaccinations, softening science in school, making crazy laws against homosexuality, allowing charlatans to seel shit cures in pharmacies...

And science finds new ways to kill more and more people at once with their nuclear missiles and biological weapons and screxw the world over with their new ways of poluting stuff. Science is only inventing ways to kill ourselves. Scientists are stupid.

I'll say it again: religious people ARE FUCKING STUPID.
Prove me wrong, please, anyone! PROVE ME WRONG.

I can back up with a shitload of religious people who have built society in the past, but then you would call me a retard anyway and still say every religious person is stupid.

Tell me this, if religion makes you weak and stupid, howcome humanity lasted up to this moment without going extinct? For millenia people have been religious.

At 6/27/09 10:46 AM, poxpower wrote: I'll say it again: religious people ARE FUCKING STUPID.
Prove me wrong, please, anyone! PROVE ME WRONG.

I can guarantee that many of those who post on this board and are respected for their well-reasoned arguments also happen to believe in some form of supreme being in their spare time. You can call theists stupid by the virtue of their beliefs until you're blue in the face, but ultimately you'd be pissing into the wind (and, statistically, on the worldviews of the vast majority of people on this planet).

Saying that religious people are stupid without qualifiers only serves to portray you as someone with a blind hatred for people who happen to hold a different worldview than your own; how does this help your case at all, let alone put the onus on anyone else to prove anything to you? It's like you're trying to further marginalize moderate atheists by making the most extreme and inflammatory arguments possible...

At 6/27/09 12:22 PM, Ericho wrote:

I'd also like to add that getting rid of religion is unconstituonal.

That's not the question, the question is, IS RELIGION GOOD, also it can be highly arguable.

Everybody always gripes about how much Thomas Jefferson hated religion and such, but he clearly gave us freedom of religion.

Yes, not OBLIGATION but freedom of religion.

So in theory, if there was no religion we would be violating the constitution

No, they only said: "You are free to believe in every religion you want" not "YOU HAVE TO BLEIEVE IN GOD ARGJADGJ"

and we would no longer have our freedom as this freedom wouldn't exist anymore. This is what people throughout our nation's history have fought and died for and for us to eradicate that freedom

Religion is still a fairy tale, therefore the point is to show that believing in religion is stupid, therefore you are still free to do so, but why would you do since you know it's stupid.

(especially by destroying all religion) is simply insulting our dead.

Oh please, cut out the bullshit. Are you pretending you speak to every dead american person or whatever. because I can tell you they don't give a shit, why ? BECAUSE THEY'RE FUCKING DEAD

At 6/27/09 01:24 PM, VenomKing666 wrote:
Religion is still a fairy tale, therefore the point is to show that believing in religion is stupid, therefore you are still free to do so, but why would you do since you know it's stupid.

On the Edison point he just argued that freedom of religion should always exist.
And it's not because you think something is stupid, the whole world will agree. (hence Ericho will likely stay a believer)

At 6/27/09 12:31 PM, RubberTrucky wrote:

We're poisoning our youths minds with telling them fairytales and making them believe in Santa and the Easter bunny.

Yeah if you never tell them it was a fairytale, you are.
It's called a religion. Show me one parent who tries to enforce Santa for one kid's entire life.

And science finds new ways to kill more and more people at once with their nuclear missiles and biological weapons and screxw the world over with their new ways of poluting stuff. Science is only inventing ways to kill ourselves. Scientists are stupid.

You can't possibly be serious.

Tell me this, if religion makes you weak and stupid

Woah, smart guy! HEY IF NOT WASHING REGULARLY PROMOTES DISEASES, HOW COME WE'RE ALL STILL HERE? SKDFSAFDS

I'll let you answer your own question.

Anyway I'm sure there's a lot of smart "religious" people but my guess is that they don't give a shit about religion and they just follow it to fit in. I've yet to see ANY religious debater not get completely trashed.

Show them to me. I want to see a religious dude lasting one entire debate without relying on one logical fallacy.

At 6/27/09 01:35 PM, RubberTrucky wrote:

At 6/27/09 01:24 PM, VenomKing666 wrote:
Religion is still a fairy tale, therefore the point is to show that believing in religion is stupid, therefore you are still free to do so, but why would you do since you know it's stupid.

On the Edison point he just argued that freedom of religion should always exist.
And it's not because you think something is stupid, the whole world will agree. (hence Ericho will likely stay a believer)

yes but my point was that arguing that religion isuntrue (or stupid) was not unconstitutional at all. And that even if it was, the thing was to find if religion was really a good thing.

At 6/27/09 01:42 PM, poxpower wrote: Show me one parent who tries to enforce Santa for one kid's entire life.

How many religious people have actively forced their religion onto you already?
In my case: 0.

And science finds new ways to kill more and more people at once with their nuclear missiles and biological weapons and screxw the world over with their new ways of poluting stuff. Science is only inventing ways to kill ourselves. Scientists are stupid.

You can't possibly be serious.

No I'm not, I'm only reversing this argument.

At 6/27/09 10:46 AM, poxpower wrote:
I'll say it again: religious people ARE FUCKING STUPID.
Prove me wrong, please, anyone! PROVE ME WRONG.
Anyway I'm sure there's a lot of smart "religious" people

Kind of covering it up with quotation marks there.

but my guess is that they don't give a shit about religion and they just follow it to fit in.

That's your guess. Lemaitre was a priest for chrissakes and got a strong position within the Church even after his publications about the Big Bang.

Show them to me. I want to see a religious dude lasting one entire debate without relying on one logical fallacy.

I've seen you making several logical fallacies by now. I've probably seen everyone making logical fallacies in these debates.
And even they fail at debating about religion, they might still whoop their opponents ass on all other debates.

At 6/27/09 01:44 PM, VenomKing666 wrote:
yes but my point was that arguing that religion isuntrue (or stupid) was not unconstitutional at all.

Debating on religion is constitutional, freedom of speech allows it.

At 6/27/09 12:31 PM, RubberTrucky wrote: Tell me this, if religion makes you weak and stupid, howcome humanity lasted up to this moment without going extinct? For millenia people have been religious.

One has nothing to do with the other. Aside from that, while there have been people who have followed various religions for thousands of years, not every single person has been religious and they certainly havn't all followed the same religion.

The reason people think religion makes one "weak and stupid" is the fact that so many religous people use their religion as an excuse to be better than other people because their faith is better than the other faiths (or those without faith) and their enlightenment is the right one. People have been killed over it, wars have been fought over it and so on. For some people, religion is only good when you are talking about THEIR religion and everyone else is going to hell unless they convert to their religion.

Religion might be wonderful if there was only one religion, but that is not the case.

At 6/27/09 02:09 PM, RubberTrucky wrote:

At 6/27/09 01:42 PM, poxpower wrote: Show me one parent who tries to enforce Santa for one kid's entire life.

How many religious people have actively forced their religion onto you already?
In my case: 0.

What does this have to do with anything?
???

No I'm not, I'm only reversing this argument.

Equating science WITH THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF SCIENCE, basically is what you did.
Using the classic insane argument that "science makes nukes" ???

Again: ARE YOU SHITTING ME? HOLY BALLS.

That's EXACTLY like saying "well you can overdose on medicine...so medicine is like car crashes, because car crashes sometimes kill murderers!".

That's your guess. Lemaitre was a priest for chrissakes and got a strong position within the Church even after his publications about the Big Bang.

Ok I'll rephrase it: religious people are hella stupid when it comes to religion.
Not ignorant, but downright STUPID.

At 6/27/09 12:22 PM, Ericho wrote: So in theory, if there was no religion we would be violating the constitution and we would no longer have our freedom as this freedom wouldn't exist anymore.

How awfully backwards.

If there was no religion... there would be no need for that freedom.

You seem to assume that "no religion" automatically means "no religion by force" - please stop projecting.

Honestly, arguing about nothing is good. By arguing you don't really change anything. Example:

"Bob, I don't like the stimulus package"
"Bill, I do"
"But, it would help!"
"I don't think so!"

Guess what, Obama would still pass it.

At 6/27/09 01:24 PM, VenomKing666 wrote: No, they only said: "You are free to believe in every religion you want" not "YOU HAVE TO BLEIEVE IN GOD ARGJADGJ"

Exactly, I'm getting the implication that some people around here say you can't believe in God.

Religion is still a fairy tale, therefore the point is to show that believing in religion is stupid, therefore you are still free to do so, but why would you do since you know it's stupid.

(especially by destroying all religion) is simply insulting our dead.

If there is no religion what is the point of having freedom of religion? The Constitution is in this point is null and void.

Oh please, cut out the bullshit. Are you pretending you speak to every dead american person or whatever. because I can tell you they don't give a shit, why ? BECAUSE THEY'RE FUCKING DEAD

That's not very respectful for the dead, you know.

At 6/28/09 02:18 PM, Ericho wrote: Exactly, I'm getting the implication that some people around here say you can't believe in God.

Yeah, you can, but that's just not very bright.

Oh please, cut out the bullshit. Are you pretending you speak to every dead american person or whatever. because I can tell you they don't give a shit, why ? BECAUSE THEY'RE FUCKING DEAD

That's not very respectful for the dead, you know.

If they have any complaints they can call me.

At 6/28/09 02:18 PM, Ericho wrote: If there is no religion what is the point of having freedom of religion? The Constitution is in this point is null and void.

... therefore people should be religious?

At 6/29/09 01:41 AM, Bacchanalian wrote: ... therefore people should be religious?

What's the point of having rights if no one uses them?

At 6/29/09 03:53 PM, Ericho wrote:

At 6/29/09 01:41 AM, Bacchanalian wrote: ... therefore people should be religious?

What's the point of having rights if no one uses them?

That's very dishonest phrasing. Just because one right is no longer needed doesn't render all rights pointless. I'm pretty sure you didn't meant to say that, but watch your phrasing.

You're also turning a right into an obligation - which is very much NOT what rights are about. The point of a right is not to set a precedent for the ideal citizen.

Atheists, like people who don't own guns, are not living unconstitutional lives. A right is not going to waste if there is no demand for that right.

A right is going to waste when it is not practiced, which, by virtue of what a right is, would require demand to be present, and an imposed limit denying those demands.

At 6/29/09 04:43 PM, Bacchanalian wrote:

At 6/29/09 03:53 PM, Ericho wrote:

At 6/29/09 01:41 AM, Bacchanalian wrote: ... therefore people should be religious?

What's the point of having rights if no one uses them?

That's very dishonest phrasing. Just because one right is no longer needed doesn't render all rights pointless. I'm pretty sure you didn't meant to say that, but watch your phrasing.

You're also turning a right into an obligation - which is very much NOT what rights are about. The point of a right is not to set a precedent for the ideal citizen.

His point is a good one, Ericho. No rational atheist would say that people should not be allowed to be religious, but almost every single one would say that it would be beneficial if religion was removed as a factor.

Look at it this way: If the right to the freedom of speech was no longer necessary, it would not be upsetting if no one used it. If the right to bear arms was no longer necessary, it would also not be upsetting if no one owned a gun. These rights are still necessary, though, and (for the first one anyway) probably always will be.

At 6/29/09 05:14 PM, Tancrisism wrote: Look at it this way: If the right to the freedom of speech was no longer necessary, it would not be upsetting if no one used it. If the right to bear arms was no longer necessary, it would also not be upsetting if no one owned a gun. These rights are still necessary, though, and (for the first one anyway) probably always will be.

Okay, I see your point. I'm just saying that it just seems strange for a certain right to exist when any form of believing in a right is irrational. I don't think it matters what you believe in. You can do whatever you want as long as it doesn't hurt other people. I sincerely try not to hurt anyone with my beliefs and I do not use them to justify any common moral ground.