Legality of Audio Usage

[nal1200]

I know this topic has been brought up occasionally within the lounge and other places, but I have something extremely specific that needs to be addressed.

That issue is audio being used in sponsored flash games and movies.

Let's say, for example, you have a scenario where an author creates a flash game or movie and uses one of your submissions in it. No big deal right? Then, following the NG API system, that author uses flash ads to earn revenue. Alright, so it's probably only going to earn them a couple of bucks, no big deal to me, it's only a little bit of money.

But what about the big scenarios? What if a game is making THOUSANDS of dollars from ad sponsorship and you, being a CONTRIBUTOR to the game by means of audio (whether asked for permission or not, doesn't really make a difference) is not being paid at all?

Do we reserve the right to demand some sort of retribution for our work? Technically the authors are breaking the creative commons license by even using audio from the NG portal in a sponsored game because of its ability to gain revenue.

So even if we don't get paid for it, can we still request the song to be removed? Can we FORCE the song to be removed? What if they fail to remove it?

All of these questions are EXTREMELY poorly defined within this whole skew of ideas on Newgrounds and the internet. It's almost like there are obvious flaws, but because no one is being wronged ENOUGH, that the problems go unsolved.

In my honest opinion, you can't have a FREE portal and user ad revenue coexist. You just can't.

[Mid-Night]

I've made ad revenue off of flashes my songs have been used in, through the system.

[CelestOrion]

If any of my music, covers or original work, were to be used by an author that would make money, I would demand a percentage, depending on the impact and amount of time it is heard in the final product. Seriously, it's not hard to link an Audio author when you're typing in the info for a Flash on Newgrounds, or to tell it how much of a percentage or withheld money from the Flash goes to them. Now, if it's not a big project at all, feel free to use the songs with no charge, but for the bigger ones.....pay up. I'm broke xD

[Mrmilkcarton]

At 6/14/09 12:55 AM, Mid-Night wrote: I've made ad revenue off of flashes my songs have been used in, through the system.

They have the ability to decide if they want to put you down for revenue or not. I don't think I've had a flash animation that has done that for me yet.

[Khuskan]

Technically, sponsorship and advertisements counts as commercial use, but it's just as easily argued by a CRACK TEAM OF NINJA LAWYERS the other way.

These flash guys aren't getting much for the work, and they're still releasing the games for free, and assuming they're being released on NG and you're being properly credited, you are getting trafficshare from the NG ads.

It would be detrimental to the progression of the audio portal to start getting picky advertisements and sponsorships of flashes, though I also do feel that there should be some sort of 'permission' feature for audio use in featured flashes as well as NG actually sending some notification to you when your song is used in anything on the site so you can check it out.

[Khuskan]

At 6/14/09 01:57 AM, Mrmilkcarton wrote:

At 6/14/09 12:55 AM, Mid-Night wrote: I've made ad revenue off of flashes my songs have been used in, through the system.

They have the ability to decide if they want to put you down for revenue or not. I don't think I've had a flash animation that has done that for me yet.

Wow, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

not that I'm calling you stupid for pointing it out. I'm hung-over. Nothing I type is making sense

If a flash artist uses music from the audio portal, then I personally feel that we should positively get a cut of adshare from the flashes page. Said artist is not paying NG to use that flash page, so it is not up to him where the money goes. That being said, it's not up to me either, but fair is fair.

[Steven-Polley]

You can tell them to remove it, or set up some sort of deal on the side that satisfies both parties.

[InGenius]

This issue is the line in the sand, so to speak, which has caused me to question alot of what NG as a community is about. From every angle, the Flash and Audio portals seem to be at odds with one another. Allow me to explain why I say this:

NG was created to promote Flash games, movies, animations, etc. to the public. Originally, it was a grassroots style movement of random flash animators submitting works to the owner, or so the official history reads. At some point, the AP was created because flash animators needed music and no one wanted to be sued for using copywritten music; enter the CC licensing. CC licensing is GREAT for non-profit share-and-share-alike usage, but it is horrible for protecting the artists in a commercial usage because it has only one rule about commercial usage: don't do it. And because flash artists can freely download and distribute our works from the AP in their games, when said game gets picked up by Armor or any of the other sponsors and goes on to make the artist money, because there was never any form of contractual understanding between artist and performer, any and all proceeds go to the flash artist, with the audio performer/producers generally being cut out.

Now, there have been a few cases where the flash artist has offered some form of monetary recompense, but it's rare and usually ends up with the audio producer being undervalued. We forget that, like actual mainstream films, the sound and music of an animation, movie, or game, is a large chunk of the atmosphere and enjoyability of said media. And many producers are so happy to get any small amount that the offer of a one-time payout, regardless of size, is more than welcome to them; but in the long run this hurts the profitability of audio and devalues our work even more. Look at beat production and mixtapes. The industry is so inundated with 20$, 10$, even .99$ beats, that excellent producers are being passed up for asking for what their track is worth. The same thing will happen and is happening in the realm of Flash media as well, and we're the ones watching it happen.

Everytime I open a new flash to find a) copywritten music is being used for all parts, b) Mochi ads preloaders are being used witth no compensation to the audio producer, or c) there is absolutely no mention of the artists and producers involved in the project, I am reminded that the AP continues to be the red-headed stepchild of the FP on the site. Yes, we were finally given the revenue sharing application for our page views, but until audio is sponsored like flash, by large websites and companies willing to pay for using our audio in their Flash, and until the owners of the site try to actually police this situation and figure out a way to force compliance, we're going to continue having these problems.

I don't see why it's harder to pull flash using copywritten music than it is to ban audio producers using samples, stealing audio, or, the AP's boogieman it would seem, loop based music. I don't see how NG can't divy the mochi ads and other ad preloader revenue amongst every artist that had a hand in a game. Before allowing an ad-driven preloader, the site should force a contract on the flash artist to attest that all parties have either agreed to split the cash, and how, or that all parties have given up their rights to any proceeds. And last, since it's right in the CC licensing itself, I still fail to see why there are some flashes where none of the contributing artists receive attribution for their works being used, though this becomes rarer as we self-police and "hassle" those who do it on a frequent basis.

That's the way I see the problem, and my own opinion on some solutions. Personally, I put about as much stock in any of these things being cleared up in the next 5 years as I do that the AP will ever get the advertised update for the still-broken "Great Score" and "Awesome Score" highlights that remain on our frontpage to this day. That's a constant reminder that the AP is relegated to backseat status.

[Hades]

As for the whole money sharing deal, I know that I had one of my submissions used in a Flash that earned quite a bit of money. I just earned 1% of the profits, but it is currently summed up to 2.93$. You do the math and figure out how much the author got.

My point is: hell yes, we should get a lot more. But it was darn polite of the guy to pop in at least the 1%, wasn't it? Better something than nothing.

[nal1200]

At 6/15/09 06:48 PM, Hades wrote: As for the whole money sharing deal, I know that I had one of my submissions used in a Flash that earned quite a bit of money. I just earned 1% of the profits, but it is currently summed up to 2.93$. You do the math and figure out how much the author got.

My point is: hell yes, we should get a lot more. But it was darn polite of the guy to pop in at least the 1%, wasn't it? Better something than nothing.

So he made about $291?

Did your song really only contribute 1% of the final material? Honestly? I mean I would value music as a much, much more integral part. Atleast 10% and upwards, depending on how heavily the purpose of the flash relies on the music it uses (for instance, not as much in a stick animation, but a whole hell of a lot in a rhythm-based game.)

[loansindi]

At 6/15/09 06:48 PM, Hades wrote: My point is: hell yes, we should get a lot more. But it was darn polite of the guy to pop in at least the 1%, wasn't it? Better something than nothing.

Not really. That's like tipping a waiter two cents. It's an acknowledgment that there SHOULD be a real monetary transaction, but... he didn't feel like paying you. Guy's a cock.

[nal1200]

At 6/15/09 08:28 PM, loansindi wrote: Not really. That's like tipping a waiter two cents. It's an acknowledgment that there SHOULD be a real monetary transaction, but... he didn't feel like paying you. Guy's a cock.

EXACTLY.

This is what I mean.

[btriangle]

Well, in the hollywood world, composers are screwed half the time. In the newgrounds world, composers are screwed half the time.

What else is new???

[Hades]

At 6/15/09 08:28 PM, loansindi wrote: Not really. That's like tipping a waiter two cents. It's an acknowledgment that there SHOULD be a real monetary transaction, but... he didn't feel like paying you. Guy's a cock.

You guys seem to be missing the point in the slight fact that the guy didn't even have to give me anything. As I said, 1% is really an extremely small amount, but at least the guy wasn't that much of an asshole to share nothing with the audio artists.

Nal, you mentioned a 10%+ provision for audio artists. This simply isn't realistic, when you take into account two things:

1.) You didn't make the audio exclusively for the guy. You made it for use on the Audio portal, meaning you accepted the fact that it'll be used in a Flash sooner or later. If you made it per order, then you could be talking 20% or even more.
2.) The NG submission system allows the author to credit at least 6 songs (can't remember if I ever saw more, but I think 8 is doable) from the Audio portal for use in his work. Does it really make sense for him to share 60% of his profits with audio artists, even though the songs may have been introduced for let's say ten seconds each?

Don't get me wrong, I'd be as happy to get some more from this revenue share as the next guy, but I just think that it shouldn't work on definitive guidelines such as "10% per song". I'd say that the total money the Flash artist shares should be determined in this manner:

From the entire profits, you take (for example) 30%, taking that the entire Flash has an Audio Portal-based musical background. Then, you simply divide the 30% with the number of songs used in the Flash, and there you have it. This way, it just might be possible to reach the share you were talking about.

Still, I think that NG should somehow enforce a minimum percentage given to audio artists. Having the ability of not sharing any of the profits is just plain old fucked up, especially seeing that the initial idea of the APortal was to make songs for use in Flashes.

[nathanallenpinard]

So...reading this. The flash animators and programmers can take the submitted audio from NG, apply it to their flash work, and they have the OPTION of giving us a cut?

If that's correct, then something needs to be changed immediately.

[la-yinn]

Something should definately be changed.

An option to agree shares before the audio may be used at all would solve it entirely, because an audio artist could be honoured to have his/her work featured and agree to 0-5%, while other submissions may be used for whatever percentage of shares. This would certainly solve the whole ordeal.

[loansindi]

At 6/16/09 06:32 AM, Hades wrote:

At 6/15/09 08:28 PM, loansindi wrote: Not really. That's like tipping a waiter two cents. It's an acknowledgment that there SHOULD be a real monetary transaction, but... he didn't feel like paying you. Guy's a cock.

You guys seem to be missing the point in the slight fact that the guy didn't even have to give me anything. As I said, 1% is really an extremely small amount, but at least the guy wasn't that much of an asshole to share nothing with the audio artists

and you're missing the point that tossing someone a dollar when you've made a hundred bucks, with their assistance, is a dick move. I'd rather they just didn't pay me, rather than acknowledge the fact that they're at least a little obligated to, but too damn cheap to actually make it worthwhile. it's just a dick move, is all.