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At 6/3/09 12:43 PM, tally1989 wrote: But i took a look at some of the videos that where posted, and i saw "(name i cant remember) killed a charger". So i believe you

In this video at about 7 seconds in, you can see a Charger fall.

At 6/3/09 12:16 PM, Yiffy wrote: Instead while they were working on those, they flushed that idea through the toilet and put a price tag on it.

That's some delicious proof you have there.

Link to podcast interview.

From which we get this.

"Well, so, one of the things was, we did come out with did already come out with content already, right? We came out with the Survival Pack, we keep on updating, and actually, being schizophrenic as we are, we're going to continue updating Left 4 Dead 1. We have the new matchmaking to play, the community content coming up, we have the four versus four matchmaking, so it's not like we're saying 'Goodbye, Left 4 Dead! You don't exist anymore.' We're still...we're in a weird position for us, right? So for that, we're going to still continue to update Left 4 Dead 1 as well as continuing Left 4 Dead 2."

Oh, wait, that's not proof for what you said at all.

My bad.

At 6/3/09 02:54 PM, Fyndir wrote:

At 6/3/09 12:16 PM, Yiffy wrote: Instead while they were working on those, they flushed that idea through the toilet and put a price tag on it.

That's some delicious proof you have there.

Link to podcast interview.

From which we get this.

"Well, so, one of the things was, we did come out with did already come out with content already, right? We came out with the Survival Pack, we keep on updating, and actually, being schizophrenic as we are, we're going to continue updating Left 4 Dead 1. We have the new matchmaking to play, the community content coming up, we have the four versus four matchmaking, so it's not like we're saying 'Goodbye, Left 4 Dead! You don't exist anymore.' We're still...we're in a weird position for us, right? So for that, we're going to still continue to update Left 4 Dead 1 as well as continuing Left 4 Dead 2."

Oh, wait, that's not proof for what you said at all.

My bad.

You're sure about that?

http://www.videogamer.com/xbox360/left_4 _dead/news/valve_details_post_left_4_dea d_launch_plans.html

"So each time we've released one of those for Team Fortress 2 we've seen about a 20% increase in the number of people who are playing online. And that number is really important because it determines how many community created maps there are, how many servers are running, and so on. So we'll do the same thing with Left 4 Dead where we'll have the initial release and then we'll release more movies, more characters, more weapons, unlockables, achievements, because that's the way you continue to grow a community over time."

Valve shouldn't promise things when they can't make them true. This "second" installment is actualyl what they where planning to add in updates, what should've been in the game from the beginning.

At 6/3/09 03:14 PM, Yiffy wrote: You're sure about that?

About what?

The fact that he flat out stated they would continue to work on both games?

Yes.

At 6/3/09 03:26 PM, Fyndir wrote:

At 6/3/09 03:14 PM, Yiffy wrote: You're sure about that?

About what?

The fact that he flat out stated they would continue to work on both games?

Yes.

Are you really that naïve to believe that they will add New campaigns, new characters, new weapons, new unlockables, new achievements to L4D1? Time will tell I guess.

Also note this is Valve South ( Turtle Rock ), not Valve. So I hope, but doubt it.

At 6/3/09 03:29 PM, Yiffy wrote: Are you really that naïve to believe that they will add New campaigns, new characters, new weapons, new unlockables, new achievements to L4D1?

I see no reason to assume otherwise at this point, given their track record of excellent customer service and continual updates.

At 6/3/09 03:29 PM, Yiffy wrote:

At 6/3/09 03:26 PM, Fyndir wrote:

At 6/3/09 03:14 PM, Yiffy wrote: You're sure about that?

About what?

The fact that he flat out stated they would continue to work on both games?

Yes.

Are you really that naïve to believe that they will add New campaigns, new characters, new weapons, new unlockables, new achievements to L4D1? Time will tell I guess.

Also note this is Valve South ( Turtle Rock ), not Valve. So I hope, but doubt it.

Valve won't, but the community will. All Valve has to do is release the full SDK and MatchMaking 2.0 and the game will swarm with custom content.

At 6/3/09 01:28 PM, Chumbawamba wrote:

At 6/3/09 12:43 PM, tally1989 wrote: But i took a look at some of the videos that where posted, and i saw "(name i cant remember) killed a charger". So i believe you

In this video at about 7 seconds in, you can see a Charger fall.

Wow.

That just proves it then, they're using the same achievements as in left 4 dead1. check out in the middle, one of the people gets the achievement for Drag and Drop.

And there's only 1 new infected, the Charger. The hunter and smoker are still there.

This is..Wow.

At 6/3/09 11:12 AM, BreIm wrote:

Your stupidity prevents you from rational discussion.

Nice Ad HOminem here, too bad it dosen't count as an argument.

1 year after L4D 1 came out, you think they're going to shit out 50 hours worth of gameplay? No, they aren't.

And did I imply they would ? NO. Nice work so far bro. YOu proved nothing.

The campaigns are going to last just as long as l4d1 because of it.

Probably.

And just because they give Updates for Team Fortress 2, that doesn't mean they should charge $60 for things that could easily be added in DLC.

I agree, but I used this to prove Valve weren't money hoggers, not that because they gave shit for TF2 they had to get money somwhere else.

This is just to take extra money from their players. Here's the difference between L4D1 And L4D2:

Yes it is, but Turtle Work (Valve South isnt the same as just Valve.

Melee Weapons
New Survivors
A few new campaigns.

A few being 5.

Now, tell me, how would this be hard to put it in DLC? Maybe not all at once, But in little pieces. Considering how soon it is after L4D came out, even a blind man could see this is just to take more money from people when they shouldn't.

Well yes it is to take money. The thing I am saying is that they do not owe you any fucking free update.

Ohh look, you can kill zombies! Oops, you could do that in the last one. Oh check it out, the Charger! Isn't he badass? You mean the Tank with a mutated arm?

Exept he's a regular infected that does unique things, like the smoker or the hunter.

Oh check it out! You can beat up zombies with melee weapons..which noone will use because charging a charger with a melee weapon would be retarded!

I would do it, because it's fucking badass.

What I am saying is that Valve does not owe you any fucking free update, if you are not happy just don,t buy it.

Also maybe they will do something like: If you own the first game, you can play the levels of the first game with the new features etc. Or maybe they will bundle it in the Oranger Box (lol).

So stop crying.

Above poster is an idiot. There's no point in arguing with you when all you do is spew stupidity in every post.

First we pay $50 for an unfinished game, now they want us to pay another $50 for the same game, only with minor updates.

It looks good enough for me and I'll just buy it at the inevitable holiday sale price.

I'm a little pissed off considering I have yet to see anything in the trailers that couldn't have been made as DLC.

At 6/3/09 04:43 PM, BreIm wrote: Above poster is an idiot. There's no point in arguing with you when all you do is spew stupidity in every post.

First we pay $50 for an unfinished game, now they want us to pay another $50 for the same game, only with minor updates.

First off, achievements are the least important part of the game. Valve will most likely add new ones during the 6 months the game has to release. They were probably using the old ones as placeholders.

Secondly, I'm sorry, but have you played the full game? Valve has said that there will be a lot more special infected. So apparently you can judge a game based off of a 1 minute game-play video. Go be an idiot somewhere else.

Thirdly, HOW DO YOU KNOW VALVE WILL MAKE YOU PAY 50$? Do you work at Valve? No you don't. Valve is known for making great deals, and I wouldn't be surprised if this game was at a discount.

At 6/3/09 04:43 PM, BreIm wrote: Above poster is an idiot. There's no point in arguing with you when all you do is spew stupidity in every post.

First we pay $50 for an unfinished game, now they want us to pay another $50 for the same game, only with minor updates.

I see you are a troll now. Oh well, I argued against you for nothing.

I heard that the survivors were an African American couple, a druggy and a business man. Can anyone confirm this?

At 6/3/09 08:25 PM, xenonmonkey wrote: I heard that the survivors were an African American couple, a druggy and a business man. Can anyone confirm this?

Haha, no.

The black chick is a news reporter that got caught in the action.

The Black dude that looks like Uncle Phil is actually a football coach.

The dude that looks like Al Pacino is hum... some buisnessman.

And the scout guy is actually a mechanic, and the anti-francis.

At 6/3/09 08:09 PM, SloppyMoe606 wrote:

At 6/3/09 04:43 PM, BreIm wrote: Above poster is an idiot. There's no point in arguing with you when all you do is spew stupidity in every post.

First we pay $50 for an unfinished game, now they want us to pay another $50 for the same game, only with minor updates.

First off, achievements are the least important part of the game. Valve will most likely add new ones during the 6 months the game has to release. They were probably using the old ones as placeholders.

Secondly, I'm sorry, but have you played the full game? Valve has said that there will be a lot more special infected. So apparently you can judge a game based off of a 1 minute game-play video. Go be an idiot somewhere else.

Thirdly, HOW DO YOU KNOW VALVE WILL MAKE YOU PAY 50$? Do you work at Valve? No you don't. Valve is known for making great deals, and I wouldn't be surprised if this game was at a discount.

Achievements are the least important part of the game? They're the only replay value you tool.

No, I haven't played the game, but from the video there's only 1 new infected, the charger. You don't think they'd show off more? They don't HAVE any.
And third, because all games cost $50.

If valve was known for making great deals, they would have put this in DLC LIKE THEY SHOULD HAVE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

This is fucking retarded...I am not buying this piece of shit again.

Seriously, this is basically an update yet charged as a full game.

Just fucking finish Half life 2 Ep 3 already and stop fucking around valve..

so whats new about it?

i know we've seen some minor updates, but whats REALLY new about it?

what compels me to buy this instead of the original?

how does this new game put a twist on the old game?

what more than minor changes do we get?

what will make me want to pay 50$ for this new game and not pay 20$ for the Orange Box?

will this game have a story or will we just write gibberish on a bunch of walls and let the Gamer decide? again?

I don't get it...L4D is not even a year old and they're realeasing a second game?
Multiplayer games are supposed to be long-term fun (like TFC and TF2...they have a huge time gap between them...)..and why the fuck don't they put all this stuff in a L4D update?
This reminds me of EA and the Sims' expansions....

Seriously, what are they thinking?

Hm we were doing pretty well just actually discussing the game till all of the idiots hopped in trying to incite some sort of argument...

Do any of us know this could have been made as DLC? Like, 5 full length campaigns, a new game mode, new melee weapons, new explosives, new shotguns/machine guns, new characters, an entirely new AI mode that randomizes the maps, countless new zombie models, new animations and behavior for those zombies, weather effects, an entirely new way for crescendo events/finales to work, and hundreds of sound effects provided by voice actors who, unlike Valve, won't work for fucking peanuts.

i.e. material that is included in a sequel.

Untill you have an actual rational explanation on how this could be released as DLC, by all means tell me.

Even if it could, we'd get it slowly trickled out... most likely over years, considering they haven't even finished the TF2 class updates yet or brought them to Xbox. Whenever it was, it certainly wouldn't be in the 5 months between now and November, and I'm willing to pay £40 again to get ALL ofthat content THEN and not a few years down the line.

Besides, the sooner this game ships, the sooner they can get back to work on Half Life and shut that group of whiners the fuck up.

I want Episode 3 too. But seems like a lot of loose ends need to be tied up. Takes a while.

For the chainsaw and achievements, im adding it to my collection

At 6/4/09 09:51 AM, MasterBalls wrote: Hm we were doing pretty well just actually discussing the game till all of the idiots hopped in trying to incite some sort of argument...

Some sort?

Do any of us know this could have been made as DLC? Like, 5 full length campaigns, a new game mode, new melee weapons, new explosives, new shotguns/machine guns, new characters, an entirely new AI mode that randomizes the maps, countless new zombie models, new animations and behavior for those zombies, weather effects, an entirely new way for crescendo events/finales to work, and hundreds of sound effects provided by voice actors who, unlike Valve, won't work for fucking peanuts.

Exactly how did they do the TF2 updates?
Yeah, the answer is, one at a time...this is like selling all of the TF2 updates in another game and sell it for a full price....

Untill you have an actual rational explanation on how this could be released as DLC, by all means tell me.

Read up.Also, nobody told VALVe to make a sequel to a game that hasn't even been out on the market for a lot of time so that they can make more money?

I want Episode 3 too. But seems like a lot of loose ends need to be tied up. Takes a while.

It does.

At 6/3/09 11:45 PM, BreIm wrote:

Achievements are the least important part of the game? They're the only replay value you tool.

True.

No, I haven't played the game, but from the video there's only 1 new infected, the charger. You don't think they'd show off more? They don't HAVE any.

Hahaha, that's it, you are confirmed for being a troll, you can't be THAT stupid.

And third, because all games cost $50.

Maybe it will be bundled with HL2 EP3 and Portal 2 in the Oranger Box (lol)

If valve was known for making great deals, they would have put this in DLC LIKE THEY SHOULD HAVE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

It is indeed a weird move from Valve but as I said many times before:

1. They don't owe anyone any free DLC
2. We don't know anything aboyt how the game will be released or if there will be some kind of deal with people that bought the first game.

Also I like how you were unable to debunk my arguments last time.

The main problems I have with L4D2 are two things:

1) Broken Promises
2) Price

1.
http://www.videogamer.com/xbox360/left_4 _dead/news/valve_details_post_left_4_dea d_launch_plans.html

The Valve CEO has stated ( "we will" ) that there will be more content for L4D1, for free. Namely, new campaigns, new characters, new weapons, new unlockables, new achievements.

So basicly Gabe said we should've gotten the following:

10 or more new Maps ( since a campaign is 5 maps )
2 or more new Characters
2 or more new Weapons
2 or more new Unlockables
2 or more new Achievements

What we got:

1 new Map
0 new Characters
0 new Weapons
0 new Unlockables
Plenty new Achievements
1 New mode

So the only thing they kept their promise on it new achievements.

As a company, it's not a very smart thing to promise things and not to make them true. After the release of L4D they immidietly began development on the new content. They made new weapons, new campaigns. But durning that development, they thought, why would we give this for free? We don't owe them anything. They either simply forgot or ignored their past promises there.

I do realize that they might still update L4D, but why would they update an old game that already has a sequel? Valve has also stated somewhere suddenly that they "Might" do things instead of "Will". Haven't got the quote on this but it was on one of the many interviews. Read through them if you want.

Not only broken promises, but also trust. They sold us L4D under the impression and advertisement that it would get regular content updates. They would sell the product as a "service". Knowing Valve's earlier products such as TF2, people entrusted Valve with a full price for a low-content product. Everyone expected content updates, since another game got them too that isn't even half of L4D's price ( TF2 ), but instead things turned around and the free content turned into a full priced sequel. Not only will this cost the user but also split the community between two standalone games.

2.
Price is also a big factor. L4D2 seems to be going superior in every way content and gameplay wise. It has all the things L4D has and more, including all the improvements to the networking code and AI. This is a big letdown to the people who bought the first product at the full price. Not only did they expect a product recieving regular updates as Gabe told, but also a product with a long lifetime. L4D2 basicly means that little people will buy L4D1, as that product is inferior to the second installment. Which could result that L4D1 will slowly lose players.

With L4D2 being basicly an improved version of L4D1 with more content and another setting, one would expect it to be an expansion, or downloadable extras. Making it a sequel this early only angers people who bought L4D1 at the full price. They could've gotten a better product in such a short timescale. With such similarities and only improvements, a low price expansion would be expected, not a fullprice sequel.

What should Valve do?
A. Make L4D2 a 20-30$ expansion, this would obviously be the best solution. Not only would an expansion allow L4D and L4D2 be compatible with each other, give current customers a fair deal, but it would also allow Valve to update the game with the "Free Content" they promised for both L4D and L4D2 at the same time.

B. Introduce L4D2 to current L4D owners for a discounted price, 10-20$ would be a fair price considering the extras, minus all the promised free content.

C. Cancel L4D2 and change it to the free content as promised. Considering they already announced L4D2 this would obviously be the worst solution for Valve, but the most fair solution for their customers. It would obviously not work.

In short:
L4D owners were promised free content, instead of getting the free content they put it in L4D2 and announced that. People are angry because Valve broken it's promises and offers them to purchase the supposed to be free updates for a full price. The introduction of L4D2 will cause the communities to split meaning less players to play against. This has only shown that Valve is starting to prefer quick money over trust and reputation.

PS: L4D is not made by Valve's main team, but by Valve South, also known as Turtle Rock. They were the ones who made Condition Zero ( which was an absolute failure ), that may explain the whole thing. This still doesn't make the fact right that Valve's CEO announced free content updates.

I have to say it's funny they have zombies in hazmat suits.
I have to admit that I might miss the nighttime setting like in L4D but the daytime would improve actually seeing shit around you. But, wouldn't it be retarded that the Witch hates light and she's out during the day?

I say they should make an option to make the stage day or night.

At 6/3/09 04:43 PM, BreIm wrote: Above poster is an idiot. There's no point in arguing with you when all you do is spew stupidity in every post.

First we pay $50 for an unfinished game, now they want us to pay another $50 for the same game, only with minor updates.

minor? this is way more then minor.

paperbat has been kind enough to provide the left 4 dead survivors club with some updates that i've been following.

im pretty much gonna copy paste what he said for your guys' sake.

Witch only wanders about in the daytime, during the night time, she is the same old witch we used to know.

Incendiary bullets don't affect the zombies in RadSuits. Incendiary bullets cannot be saved for later, once you get them, you have to use them.

The "New" weapons aren't just reskinned old ones, those replace the old ones you knew in the first Left 4 Dead. There are still some new weapons, besides the melee weapons. that we dont know about yet.

Gauntlet Events are like Crescendo Events, except there is no waiting around. After you alert the horde, your going to have to make a run from Point A, to Point B, so you can DEACTIVATE the horde. This will disable the use of camping in a corner, as the horde helplessly run at you

The new AI Director 2.0 will allow for a much more complex game experience. This new AI Director can do alot more then the first one could. It can change the weather, and Time of Day. It can also change the LEVEL ITSELF, depending on how well your doing. For example, The Graveyard part, in New Orleans, because of the water level, Corpses arent buried underground, they are put in large tombs above the surface, So if your team was doing bad, The AI Director would simply arrange the tombs in a straight line, so you just walkthrough, with no hassle, but if your team seemed to be doing a very good job, the AI Director would make a maze, with dead ends and such. This will be alot better for people who tend to run off away from their team, with a hunter waiting just around the corner. This will also disable the use of memorizing the way out, like most of us did in the Sewer Level of No Mercy.

Each Character DOES NOT have their own specific melee weapon, I've heard such arguments as "But Rochelle would never be able to hold that huge ass chainsaw". This is what they were trying to AVOID with Zoey, they wanted the female characters to be just as strong as the male. Plus, in one of the gameplay videos, One of them you see Nick using an Axe, and another, you see him using a frying pan, so there is your solid proof that each survivor isn't limited to one kind of melee weapon.

The Final Level of one of the campaigns is a bridge, many have reported its the exact same bridge that links Georgia and Mississippi. So Mississippi could be a possible campaign.

Devolpers have confirmed that some saferooms will be lacking Health Packs.

There will be THREE new special infected, not FIVE.

The Pistols will infact have unlimited ammo. There are also MORE THEN ONE TYPE of pistol this time around.

Valve is talking about adding the original 4 campaigns to L4D2, to make it easier, and more Convenient for us, as well as new time buyers who don't feel like paying an extra $50 for the previous 4 campaigns.
----------------------------------------
---------------------

so its not really a minor update. also, they wont be forgetting all about L4D, so they'll keep on updating the first one.

At 6/4/09 11:12 AM, fluffkomix wrote:

Stuff

Refer to my above post. While the improvements are nice, the promises Valve gave where also by high standard. Not only that but how does Source Engine > L4D compare to L4D > L4D2, which is basicly an improvement upon L4D? A full price sequel is not justified, neither wise.

An expansion would offer Valve a better way to patch and improve L4D and L4D2 at the same time, allowing them to come back on their promise, would allow people to play the old maps with new features, and wouldn't split the community. It would also give current L4D owners a fair deal. But it seems that their only interest with the sequel is money.

Especially because this will not likely be a sequel, I feel bad for L4D's fate both player wise and upate wise.

At 6/4/09 11:20 AM, Yiffy wrote: But it seems that their only interest with the sequel is money.

i hate to admit it but yeah it probably shouldnt cost as much as a full game IF you have the original L4D. if you dont, then it should cost slightly more cuz you're getting the first and second one.

but valve seems to care about the people who buy the games rather then the money. remember they had to fight really really hard against microsoft to be able to give us free DLC for the first one. i think when the time comes Valve shall shine like a mirror reflecting the sun.

At 6/4/09 11:27 AM, fluffkomix wrote:

At 6/4/09 11:20 AM, Yiffy wrote: But it seems that their only interest with the sequel is money.

i hate to admit it but yeah it probably shouldnt cost as much as a full game IF you have the original L4D. if you dont, then it should cost slightly more cuz you're getting the first and second one.

but valve seems to care about the people who buy the games rather then the money. remember they had to fight really really hard against microsoft to be able to give us free DLC for the first one. i think when the time comes Valve shall shine like a mirror reflecting the sun.

This is something I found very weird. They care very much for TF2, a 20$ game. But that game is made by Valve's main team. Somehow the policies seem to differ from team to team. L4D is made by Turtle Rock and their approach has been different all along, being a full priced game and now this. I can't understand how two inhouse developers can differ that much.

But either way, with what Valve did for TF2, I'm really hoping they'll care about the customers on this one too. With TF2 they gave much more value than the game actually costed, I can't imagine them doing the exact opposite with L4D. My biggest hope is that L4D2 will become an expansion.