Who to contact when not compensated

[VegetarianMeat]

So my music was used in some sponsored games (2 by MoFunZone, the other by ArmorGames) but I'm not entirely sure who to contact, the author of the game, or the sponsor.

I tried getting in touch with MoFunZone, but apparently he always has a busy schedule. When he replied he just asked for my phone number when he could have easily just settled our problem right there. Obviously I didn't give it to him because he doesn't need it. I've sent him multiple messages since then and have yet to receive a response.

As for ArmorGames, I sent them a message yesterday concerning the use of my music, and I'm waiting for a response on that. I plan on waiting a week before I respond again (if there's none sent back to me).

This seems to happen a lot, that is, flash game authors using somebody's music without the creator's consent or compensating them. I think it should be made more obvious on the audio portal page what, "Non-Commercial," really means.

[nathanallenpinard]

So they are selling the product itself?

[VegetarianMeat]

Well the way it works is the sponsor gives the person a sum of money to plaster their logo in the game.

[ninjakoopa-33]

By using your song and making money, they are clearly breaking the 'Creative Commons' license. I really don't know how you would approach this kind of problem.

You've already sent messages to ArmorGames and MoFunZone, so I think that's all there is to do.

I'd say the next best thing to do is contact the authors of the game as well. See if you get compensation from them.

[loansindi]

At 5/31/09 07:23 PM, LaForge wrote: Obviously Tom and the other programmers didn't think this feature through very well, if there's no way to know your music will be used upfront so you can be compensated.

The issue with this statement is that it fails to consider the nature of the license on the AP. The license we release under when we upload music is a non-commercial one, meaning that any money-making venture requires a discussion with the audio artist.

What this means is that the people who created those games have violated a license, meaning you could (if it really seems worth it) pursue legal action regarding reimbursement. (Probably. I am not a lawyer, this advice is to be taken with a large grain of salt, if you do something stupid because someone on the internet told you to, it's your own fault)

[Syntrus]

quit whining my music was used for armour games I haven't seen a cent and I don't care.

[nathanallenpinard]

At 5/31/09 09:23 PM, Syntrus wrote: quit whining my music was used for armour games I haven't seen a cent and I don't care.

This response was 100% useless.

If these guys were making a ton of cash from this, my steps would be:

1. Find out how much they are making, if possible.
2. Contact the owner, and explain the situation.

If the owner completely denies, then either start a PR war, or get a lawyer. They didn't sign a dotted line for your music, so in every way the music is yours and there is no automatic license that covers them.

[Syntrus]

At 5/31/09 09:49 PM, nathanallenpinard wrote:

At 5/31/09 09:23 PM, Syntrus wrote: quit whining my music was used for armour games I haven't seen a cent and I don't care.

This response was 100% useless.

If these guys were making a ton of cash from this, my steps would be:

1. Find out how much they are making, if possible.
2. Contact the owner, and explain the situation.

If the owner completely denies, then either start a PR war, or get a lawyer. They didn't sign a dotted line for your music, so in every way the music is yours and there is no automatic license that covers them.

I don't think that is very realistic. They aren't making tons of cash.

The portal encourages them "Armour Games" to use music because Armour games has an account on Newgrounds they get access to the music for free like everybody else. I don't see what they have done wrong armour games end up in G holes all over the web Vegetarian Meat and myself are getting free exposure. I've seen several threads like this trying to get money out of Armour Games and unless someone can convince me I am not about to complain about my music being used off site when they have clearly told the player where they get the music from. Unless somone can convince me otherwise (without being an asshat) I'm not about to fucking waste my time hounging a bunch of people who are giving me free publicity.

[nathanallenpinard]

It is wrong when they profit from your efforts. Those people trying to make a living from music find it to be wrong. Hobbyists, not so much.

[Syntrus]

At 5/31/09 10:02 PM, nathanallenpinard wrote: It is wrong when they profit from your efforts. Those people trying to make a living from music find it to be wrong. Hobbyists, not so much.

I would say contact tom about the submissions on site and forum his response. at least we can see about making some money on this site. as for Armour Games I think your hooped.

[nathanallenpinard]

At 5/31/09 10:06 PM, Syntrus wrote:

At 5/31/09 10:02 PM, nathanallenpinard wrote: It is wrong when they profit from your efforts. Those people trying to make a living from music find it to be wrong. Hobbyists, not so much.

I would say contact tom about the submissions on site and forum his response. at least we can see about making some money on this site. as for Armour Games I think your hooped.

If the game is sponsored, they are going to want to do everything by the book, otherwise they could lose those sponsors. It may just be a case of miscommunication.

There are a lot of composers out there that completely frown on any one composer doing free work for a for-profit project, as they believe it damages the rep and pay expectations of all other composers. However, the case here is the company didn't even ask the composer for permission.

[Glib]

well whatever comes out of this, lend me a dollar or two

[loansindi]

At 5/31/09 10:09 PM, nathanallenpinard wrote: However, the case here is the company didn't even ask the composer for permission.

This.

The maker of the game violated the license as soon as money became directly involved in the project.

[VegetarianMeat]

At 5/31/09 09:23 PM, Syntrus wrote: quit whining my music was used for armour games I haven't seen a cent and I don't care.

I'm not whining, my music is put under a contract that says it's for non-commercial use unless there's an agreement that is made. This was not the case for me, and as such I'm looking to get something out of it. I even have a message on my userpage asking for people to contact me if they plan on using my work, and I don't even get that.

I don't think that is very realistic. They aren't making tons of cash.

I've made 200$ before from an honest flash game author that got over 1000$ from his sponsorship with ArmorGames. Obviously this isn't the case for every game, but after you chase people down for what you should have been offered in the beginning, it adds up.

Also you mentioned free publicity, but to be honest, besides a few extra reviews the use of my music in those games (or any for that matter) hasn't really done anything for me in terms of exposure.

[WeHaveFreshCookies]

Since they violated a license, they really should be paying more attention, as they could get in legal trouble. Give them a while, keep pestering them, and if that doesn't work, (depending on how much money we're talking about here) consider consulting a lawyer.

[Rig]

MoFunZone used one of my songs in a game once. I told him about it and he removed it. He gave me his MSN and phone number, too.

[VegetarianMeat]

At 5/31/09 10:42 PM, Rig wrote: MoFunZone used one of my songs in a game once. I told him about it and he removed it. He gave me his MSN and phone number, too.

Don't you think you should have got some kind of compensation from that though? Did he replace the song? And yeah, he gave me his MSN, except I prefer to use email so I sent him a few messages through there.

[Khuskan]

This is an incredibly debatable topic.

Advertisements do not count as direct revenue. The artist makes money by ad impressions as opposed to selling the content, which is available free. There is no legal reason that they could not use creative commons licensed work as long as it fell within the license, therefore legally you've got nothing on them.

However, if you specifically don't want your work in a specific flash game, that is your right, and you can pull the license specifically and descriminatly against a certain producer.

Flash games would not be produced these days without ad support and sponsorships, and you're not doing yourself any favours by cutting off that publicity market. As long as they aren't selling the game (or, more specifically, making it so your content is available to the viewer only after they have paid something), then they are breaking copyright law. Otherwise, they're in the right.

[Khuskan]

Also forgot to add that being paid a certain ammount of money to put something into your game does not make your game a commercial product. It is only a commercial product if it is, guess what, commercially available, as in the user has to pay.

[VegetarianMeat]

At 6/1/09 01:03 PM, Khuskan wrote: Also forgot to add that being paid a certain ammount of money to put something into your game does not make your game a commercial product. It is only a commercial product if it is, guess what, commercially available, as in the user has to pay.

I just did a quick google search for the meaning of commercial purposes:

USED FOR COMMERCIAL PURPOSES - The carriage of persons or property for any fare, fee, rate, charge or other consideration, or directly or indirectly in connection with any business, or other undertaking intended for profit.

[Khuskan]

At 6/1/09 02:55 PM, VegetarianMeat wrote:

USED FOR COMMERCIAL PURPOSES - The carriage of persons or property for any fare, fee, rate, charge or other consideration, or directly or indirectly in connection with any business, or other undertaking intended

for profit.

Good luck arguing that they have the adverts for profit and not simply covering their costs, your word against theirs.

Flash is expensive.

[VegetarianMeat]

At 6/1/09 05:14 PM, Khuskan wrote: Good luck arguing that they have the adverts for profit and not simply covering their costs, your word against theirs.

Flash is expensive.

That's bullshit and you know it. I'm not asking for a significant amount of whatever they're making. Every time I make an agreement concerning this sort of thing I just ask for whatever that person feels is reasonable considering how much they made and how much of an involvement my song had in the game. What's so wrong about that?

[MaestroRage]

seriously Khuskan that has to be one of the dumbest things i've ever heard. Either you're playing the devil's advocate for the sake of playing the devil's advocate, or you're in troll mode.

When money is involved something falls in commercial domain. Sponsorship is not some kind of "hey, i'll give you money, and i'd like you to give me some exposure :D!" kind of thing. Somebody, who is considered part of the public, is offering to purchase exposure from the game and to modify the game to reflect it. It is a legally binding contract that is carried out.

So even by your logic, somebody who is in the general public is paying for a product/service, and as such all the materials in the product are commercially viable.

That said, this is why I am heavily considering licensing my audio on sites like www.audiojungle.net, that way people who are doing projects with no money can still use it under the CC license, and those who want to buy it without getting into the hassle of contacting me first can just buy it with the proper licenses.

Hell I might just take down everything worth anything and shift over there. Though I admit that's a fantastic way to kill fanbase since nobody can listen and download your tracks for enjoyment either.

[Khuskan]

At 6/1/09 11:12 PM, MaestroRage wrote: seriously Khuskan that has to be one of the dumbest things i've ever heard. Either you're playing the devil's advocate for the sake of playing the devil's advocate, or you're in troll mode.

Nope, I'm just telling you my experiences with exactly the same problem, though you have made some very fair points.

What needs to be considered is -what- is being sold. When you sell your flash to a sponsor, you are not selling ownership of the flash or anything that makes it up, you are instead selling what is essentially advertisement space and exclusivity rights. This is the gray area that often gets argued over - The sponsor does not buy your music if it is used in the game. They do not claim ownership of it, you remain credited and they recieve no credit for it.

The main debate is whether, since you supplied a flash with audio and therefore sort of made it what it is, if any of the sponsorship success is due to you. Well yes and no. I strongly think it should be, but legally it's hard to make that claim. First of all, us freelance audio producers don't have the funds to really empower ourselves legally. We can file a DMCA, and that's pretty much the ammount of it, and if the producer is entrenched in thinking they're in the right, that isn't going to do any good, because they will argue one of the following points:

*The money made from the production is covering the artists costs, and thus not for profit
*The money is being paid to the artist exclusively to produce the game, and not for the game itself
*The sponsor simply purchased advertising space, and not your work
*The work is still being released for free under the same license the audio was released as

This would mean that you, the producer of the audio, would have to paly the legal fees required to take them to court. The sad fact of the matter is that, yes I agree, it is not right that flash games can be sponsored and make a huge amount of revenue at our expense, but battling against it is fruitless and expensive, so we might as well make the most of the exposure. Even copyright claims are pretty much impossible, you would need to find a layer happy enough with the gray area between commercial and non commercial to believe you had a strong enough case for a settlement.

tl:dr, copyright law is powerful, but sucks unless you're rich.

[Khuskan]

At 6/2/09 07:07 AM, Khuskan wrote: *The work is still being released for free under the same license the audio was released as

I would also like to point out that NONE of the flash works I have seen my audio used in have been declared under a Creative Commons license, and therefore they are ALL technically in breach of copyright.