Forum Topic: Open Discussion- The Bbs

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Viridis

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Posted at: 5/31/09 01:58 PM

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At 5/31/09 01:50 PM, Gendo wrote:
At 5/31/09 01:46 PM, Viridis wrote: 4Chan is the devil, if you wanna discuss 4chan go there to do it. Why come here?
You're a real winner.

People with your attitude are one of the huge fucking problems with the BBS.

Thanks for that.

First off, I honestly doubt you've ever seen the threads relating to 4chan Zerok has locked, they're usually only tangentally related at best and the only ruckus comes from people like you spouting ludicrous shit.

I love the way you can honestly assume that I've never seen a certain thread. That shows flawless logic right there. Not only that, but Mods may be biased sometimes but they don't lock for no reason.

Second, why can't I discuss another site on here? I'm not allowed to?

You can. But 99% of the time I see people discussing 4chan its ridiculous shit which just riles people up. Maybe I should spend more time in general so I can see these great 4chan threads you speak of.

At 5/31/09 01:51 PM, HeartbreakHoldout wrote: Why do people have the sort of "us or them" attitude towards 4chan? Discussion about 4chan is perfectly appropriate here. 4chan is a place for anonymity, but what if you don't want to discuss 4chan in an anonymous way?

I don't have an Us or Them attitude towards it. If someone made a thread genuinely discussing 4chan and what its all about i'd be all for it. But I've never seen a thread like that. And I doubt I ever will.

.

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MultiCanimefan

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Posted at: 5/31/09 02:00 PM

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At 5/31/09 01:04 PM, gumOnShoe wrote:
At 5/31/09 12:33 PM, The-Condor wrote:
That kind of back seat moderation will maybe get you banned because its just not cool. It shows you don't respect the users you are posting with, and if that's the case, you certainly shouldn't be moderating the community.

How exactly does it show that you don't respect the users? Call me short-sighted or whatever, but I don't clearly see how merely helping out a user by pointing things out is a sign of disrespect. If anything, it should show that you care without being a condescending wanna-be mod.

Other times, I know, you guys just want to help. I was like that myself, but sometimes pming the user instead of posting in the thread is better. By posting in the thread and pointing it out you can derail the thread, you really aren't calling moderation attention to the situation, and you are giving user, who may be looking for it, more attention thats undeserved. The PM system is great if you find a problem. You can pm either the user or the moderator, but posting in threads that a user should be banned etc isn't really helping anyone.

Yes, the PM system is great for this, but if that were the case and everyone just used the PM system instead of "kinda backseat modding" then Mods would be swamped with messages. Furthermore, the PM system shouldn't be used all that much if Mods went into the threads themselves.

Mostly, I like to present the idea that there's a thin line between TELLING a user what they SHOULD be doing, and SUGGESTING an alternative and maybe linking to an EXAMPLE.

Out of everything, this has to be my biggest issue with the BBS. The line is often fuzzy and like you said very thin and it's sometimes hard to distinguish.

Just try not to imply you have authority when you don't because it sometimes make's our job harder.

People interpret posts differently. What may imply false authority to one user may not to another. It's all relative when it comes to this, unless of course it's blatantly obvious.

England I Canada Now STFU.

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Porkchop

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Posted at: 5/31/09 02:01 PM

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At 5/31/09 01:52 PM, Gendo wrote:
At 5/31/09 01:49 PM, Porkchop wrote: I think he just defines silly much like one of us would define stupid or spammy.
By that logic, 99% of threads should be locked.

No, by that logic, the same threads would be locked, more or less.

As for the bit about the 4chan thing, who the hell cares. Go to /b/ to bitch about it, why would you do it here?
Because /b/ is the only part of 4chan, amirite?

Christ, you people are so fucking ignorant.

Baww, keep spouting "We're so ignorant"
The point is, most 4chan threads were about shit that someone saw on /b/. Most references to 4chan nowadays is related to /b/ inasmuch as telling one off for using a shit meme or something related, and you're right in saying that it's only a minor tangent related to 4chan. When the entire thread becomes about something stupid (as deemed so by the locking/deleting mod), it's locked. Personally, i'd just keep 4chan at 4chan.

Save a tree. Wipe your ass with an owl. <3 Mein NG Homies.

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Gendo

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Posted at: 5/31/09 02:03 PM

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At 5/31/09 01:58 PM, Viridis wrote: I love the way you can honestly assume that I've never seen a certain thread.

I can.

It was far from recent and you hardly appear to be the fervent lurker type.

You can. But 99% of the time I see people discussing 4chan its ridiculous shit which just riles people up. Maybe I should spend more time in general so I can see these great 4chan threads you speak of.

I speak of no great threads.

Stop trying to put words in my mouth to make yourself look like the victor.

At 5/31/09 02:01 PM, Porkchop wrote: When the entire thread becomes about something stupid (as deemed so by the locking/deleting mod), it's locked.

That's my point.

4chan threads got locked left and right because idiots tried to pick fights, while plenty of other equally awful threads faced no reprisal.

That's unfair and ridiculous.


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Sawdust

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Posted at: 5/31/09 02:07 PM

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Oh yeah now that it's brought up, 4chan is a bit outlawed here.

Seriously, I don't see why; it's General except there's porn everywhere and topics are more entertaining.

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RandomExploit

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Posted at: 5/31/09 02:08 PM

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I find that IP bans should be enforced. Alternate accounts are on the rise and there's no way to stop them VIA accounts.

It's just a waste of admin (and mod?) time trying to simply delete accounts.

However, the IP bans shouldn't be too harsh, as the worst can still be acceptable users.


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Gagsy

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Posted at: 5/31/09 02:09 PM

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You know.. 4chan is actually a decent site once you overlook the whole /b/ cesspool of rubbish. They have some good boards and good discussion available.

I can't see the problem with talking about their activities, especially when they are in the news a lot now. I do agree with Gendo, I have seen perfectly good threads about 4chan locked due to the wrong reasons really.

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Onepiece285

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Posted at: 5/31/09 02:14 PM

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Less bans and more warnings to newer users. They're newer and still learning the ins and outs of the BBS, and shouldn't be punished as severely for it. I remember when I was relatively new here and I'd be banned for every nook and cranny rule I broke, and never once got any warnings. They aren't 3-4 year regulars, they don't fully know what goes on here from day to day.

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gumOnShoe

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Posted at: 5/31/09 02:15 PM

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At 5/31/09 02:00 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote: How exactly does it show that you don't respect the users? Call me short-sighted or whatever, but I don't clearly see how merely helping out a user by pointing things out is a sign of disrespect. If anything, it should show that you care without being a condescending wanna-be mod.

I'm talking about the variety of user who has it in their head that they deserve to be a moderator and hence go around saying "Stop this its against the rules" or "You should be banned" or "These threads are against the rules" or "Don't do this." That's not helping anyone.

Yes, the PM system is great for this, but if that were the case and everyone just used the PM system instead of "kinda backseat modding" then Mods would be swamped with messages. Furthermore, the PM system shouldn't be used all that much if Mods went into the threads themselves.

We do go into threads, but its unlikely we'll open every thread ever made, even if its just because we missed one. Sorry guys, we are human. If I have 10 extra pms in my inbox everyday, so be it. I'll let a user know when they need to back off, but as of yet, I've never had to do that.

Out of everything, this has to be my biggest issue with the BBS. The line is often fuzzy and like you said very thin and it's sometimes hard to distinguish.

Which is why I said I usually don't ban on this issue though other mods might. I'll send a pm to the user first asking them to stop posting like that, but some users don't get it the first time.

People interpret posts differently. What may imply false authority to one user may not to another. It's all relative when it comes to this, unless of course it's blatantly obvious.

At the point when you are telling another user to act another way, you've clearly crossed the line. That isn't relative. If you feel the need to do that, take it up with them in a pm and deal with the issue one on one and the consequences of doing so.

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Gendo

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Posted at: 5/31/09 02:15 PM

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At 5/31/09 02:14 PM, Onepiece285 wrote: Less bans and more warnings to newer users.

Just because you haven't been here for years doesn't mean you can't read the rules and behave.


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Elios

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Posted at: 5/31/09 02:23 PM

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At 5/31/09 02:09 PM, Gagsy wrote: You know.. 4chan is actually a decent site once you overlook the whole /b/ cesspool of rubbish. They have some good boards and good discussion available.

I can't see the problem with talking about their activities, especially when they are in the news a lot now. I do agree with Gendo, I have seen perfectly good threads about 4chan locked due to the wrong reasons really.

I agree. Most the the people who think 4chan think "/b/, no, GTFO now.". I hate to say it, but in reality, the BBS and 4chan are the same concept; a pile of shit with gold underneath it.

It looks disgusting, but start digging, and you'll find the good stuff. And the Mods can help by deleting the shit, and display the gold.

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Gagsy

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Posted at: 5/31/09 02:29 PM

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Oh another thing that really cheeses me off is how rude and sarcastic some mods can be to new users.

Let's be honest, most of us didn't look at the rules at them when we first joined, and if we did, it was a quick look, not taking much in.

Then a new user will make a thread saying "Hi, I'm new blah blah blah", and so quickly a mod will lock topic with a sarcastic message and even welcome them with a first ban. I find the mods usually are ruder to the new user then other users are, most regulars just link them to the rules and move on, not a lot of the mods though.

The way I see it, this only does bad for NG in trying to keep new users here. The mods could be scaring off potential decent posters, who's only crime is one most of us have done ourselves.

Can't there be some kind of template message for mods to post when this happens, KINDLY letting the user know that it's against the rules to make such a thread and guiding them to the rules and faqs without being total dicks about it?

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HeartbreakHoldout

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Posted at: 5/31/09 02:31 PM

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At 5/31/09 02:23 PM, Elios wrote: I agree. Most the the people who think 4chan think "/b/, no, GTFO now.". I hate to say it, but in reality, the BBS and 4chan are the same concept; a pile of shit with gold underneath it.

I disagree in the way that I think 4chan and Newgrounds are totally different, and that is why I think they don't have to be separate.
4chan and the NG BBS serve somewhat different purposes, which means that 4chan can bring extra depth to NG.

Plenty of our users frequent 4chan anyway, so it makes sense for them to discuss things which they can all relate to.

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Timmy

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Posted at: 5/31/09 02:32 PM

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Everything has pretty much been said, but I would like to stress Elios' point about the 'Spam Topic' ban.

I'm fairly certain that 90% of my bans have been from posting in spam topics, and I think the 'spam topic' rule is a bit unclear - and especially unfair for newer users who cannot recognize a spam topic.

I mean, I feel like 'spam topic' is very relative. I've seen spammy topics made by established regulars turn into great threads, and I've seen spam topics made by unsuspecting new users deleted in 30 seconds, and bans handed out to the users who posted in it.

I know that many mods are forgiving with spam topic bans, and will simply warn the users, but I feel like giving out any bans for posting in a spam topic (unless the post itself is spam) is unfair. Whether the OP is banned should be decided on a case-by-case basis, of course (is it a new user? have they been warned before? how spammy is the topic?).

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squidly

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Posted at: 5/31/09 02:34 PM

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I once got a 3 day ban for posting a reply such as this:

"Let's not"

to a thread saying:

"Let's try this."

EyeLovePoozy did it, and I find it really stupidly unfair.

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andycastaneda

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Posted at: 5/31/09 02:42 PM

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If you could ban a new user, who has made a shit thread, for the shortest amount of time and explain what to and not to do on the bbs (unwritten rules)

Petition To Change The Site!
Take out all the bad threads from the bbs!
NVM IT WAS SHOT DOWN BY THE MOD JONAS

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Scarab

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Posted at: 5/31/09 02:49 PM

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I had a feeling something like this would be brought up, going off some of the problems long-time users have brought up recently. A lot of what I think about the BBS has already been brought up to some degree by other users here, but I may as well just offer a few points while I'm here.

Firstly, I don't post anywhere near as often as I used to. I now see myself as a creepy, lurker expert of some sort though, so I still get around seeing what's hitting the BBS. Me posting less isn't the product of "Nazi moderating" or whatever; I sometimes just find it hard to actually contribute something to a thread. If I can't do that, I don't see the point, something that is repeated quite a few times at the bottom of the rules. I suppose there are different levels of taking the "before posting..." guideline, but I guess I'm one of the ones that follows it a little harsher. That doesn't mean I think all posts under three average sized paragraphs should be deleted: if someone's an idiot on the forum, I'll just see them as an idiot most of the time.

However, there are a few cases where a moderator has just clearly ignored that guideline, which is just a little concerning. I'll say now that it doesn't happen very often, because like many users, I think many of the mods are decent people who do a good job around here. There have been times though, and I'm not going to name names, where a mod has posted something along the lines of "What the fuck are you talking about?" I look at posts like that and just think, why did you even bother posting in the thread if you don't know what it's discussing? A friend and long-time BBS user claimed to me once that had he posted that message, it's possible he would've been banned for it. I'm not entirely sure about that, but it was still annoying to see.

Similar to that, some of the ways in which mod (or general Newgrounds) criticism/feedback is responded to borders on ridiculous. See this thread for instance. Yes, the original poster, kaywire, could have made a much better and more moderate thread to discuss what he wanted, and the fact he didn't is his own fault, I know. Threads like this are relatively good examples of how things can be discussed well, rather than resorting to "go if you don't like it" tactics. It's a bit murky, but my point is that people can talk about the mechanisms of the site quite well if they want to. Simply tarring a user as "stupid kid spammer" or something simply for bringing up a few points doesn't work for anyone. Don't get me wrong, there are faults on both sides, and I acknowledge that those faults are generally always a minority, whether we're talking about the regular users or the mods.

Obviously, I'll admit that I don't know how the moderating system really works, so I can't comment there (and because of this, I don't always like talking about almighty BBS politics, because I know it brands me to some extent as some shitty little upstart). Again, I think things are fine for the most part, and as someone said, a lot of the mods are interesting enough people to talk to off the BBS. Even EyeLovePoozy has seemed like a nice guy when I've spoken to him (if only briefly compared to others) elsewhere. On the BBS, "problems" are flagged at certain times, possibly as the outcome to some mod decision. As many like the amplify though, they're not perfect. I think rule-related matters can just be fine-tuned that little bit more if you know what I mean... WilliWowza brought this up on more than a few occasions.

Making an ultimate set of rules for every mod to work by would be difficult to devise in my opinion. The BBS, like any other Internet forum, is built on subjectivity, and therefore rules have to work with that. I definitely think Zerok's rule blog could be incorporated into the rules page though, and as I've said above, some of the responses people generally give to certain threads can be really ironed out. I'm not saying mods and users alike should ditch their sense of humour at the log-in (after all, a lot of you make up for the fact I don't have a sense of humour), but some attempted, "witty, sarcastic humour" is better off elsewhere, I think. Trying to make kids laugh by trying to say the word fuck as many times as possible in one post isn't really effective.

Yeah, my points are all over the place, and they are vague. Eh, I'll post them here for the sake of them possibly being built on or something. I wrote this up, not only because I'm grey and serious, but because I love Newgrounds. As I've said before, I wouldn't keep coming here if I didn't like the users, the mods and the general atmosphere among many other things. Even though I don't post much, I sneak around a lot, helping where I can. I think it's just a shame that as of recently, people I've known for months and years are growing fed up with the place. Hopefully I've brought up one or two things.

I think there was more I wanted to say... I need a notebook on my desk top for memory purposes :P

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EnconXV

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Posted at: 5/31/09 02:59 PM

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Threads that just amount to innane battering that should be deleted, but aren't. That's a my big problem with this place.

Take these threads, for example. You see, this is one of the reasons why experienced (so to speak) users get disenchanted with this place. Seeing the same threads about how some kid is gonna kick the fat kid's/emo kid's/ugly nerd's ass is boring and it amounts to nothing interesting to talk about. If people were really interested in how was your day at school, they'd visit your blog.


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Rucklo

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Posted at: 5/31/09 03:02 PM

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At 5/31/09 02:59 PM, EnconXV wrote: Threads that just amount to innane battering that should be deleted, but aren't. That's a my big problem with this place.

Take these threads, for example. You see, this is one of the reasons why experienced (so to speak) users get disenchanted with this place. Seeing the same threads about how some kid is gonna kick the fat kid's/emo kid's/ugly nerd's ass is boring and it amounts to nothing interesting to talk about. If people were really interested in how was your day at school, they'd visit your blog.

yea, so we lock the thread and say "blog it instead" and then people start bitching about people not visiting their blogs instead. frankly, it's like that with many issues brought up in this thread.

WHAT WHAT WHAT MAKE UP YOUR MIND, NG BBS!


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Zerok

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Posted at: 5/31/09 03:03 PM

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At 5/31/09 11:17 AM, 1nt4rw3b5 wrote: Having about 40-50 mods, each with their own MO, is irritating. What one mod will take as a joke/find funny and let slide, could easily be deleted and land you with a ban whan a different mod comes on a few minutes later. The mods need to stop adding their own pet hates to their no-go lists. Please re-write and standardise the BBS rules and make sure all the mods stick to them.

I'd totally be down for a standardized list. Hell, I've even tried to champion the effort a few times before.

Problem is, you gotta convince the admins that there's a need and merit for it. In the big picture sense of things, there really isn't. BBS veteran retention may not be at an all time high now (has it ever though? Really?) but that's pretty inconsequential when it comes to the steamrolling engine that is NG. The organization of the mod team is FARRrrrrr below optimal, but it's QUITE adequate for the needs of NG at this time (or so one would be led to believe).

It all breaks down to "you can't please everyone."

However it would be quite awesome if mods toned down the breaking their own rules thing. It's a simple step in the right direction. It'll be impossible for every mod to bend to every other mod's set of standards but there are some acting-outs that aren't necessary.

But then again, in the end, there's no real reward or incentive for "professionalism" on the team. Such is the tendency for volunteer positions, I guess.

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KevnElevn

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Posted at: 5/31/09 03:08 PM

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At 5/31/09 12:08 PM, Luis wrote:
I dont think theres really a problem with having an alt. Tom has one. Its fun to have your alter-ego and enjoy the site.

Hello Luis.

Anyway...

I feel like the BBS could be a lot better and less spammy if the whistle system was implemented into the forums.

It'd be a good way of notifying moderators of abuse and spam without PMing them and causing annoyance.


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cheesebizkit

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Posted at: 5/31/09 03:09 PM

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things are fine, mods can act however they want, because they still going to be hated. by everyone.


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Mendou

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Posted at: 5/31/09 03:09 PM

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I suggest creating an 'infraction' based system, you give users warnings, and explain as to why you have given them this infraction/warning in the first place. After about 3 infractions, you give them the ban since by then it's clear they do not know how to follow the rules properly if that is the case. Just banning them and not bothering to sign your name to the ban is annoying and all it does is irritate people who honestly thought the post they made in a thread was valid.

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Zerok

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Posted at: 5/31/09 03:10 PM

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At 5/31/09 03:02 PM, Rucklo wrote: yea, so we lock the thread and say "blog it instead" and then people start bitching about people not visiting their blogs instead. frankly, it's like that with many issues brought up in this thread.

Yeah, good example of the ol' "can't please everyone."

I'd also like to put it out there that I'm with a lot of people on the issues of auto-spam-thread bans (aka DESTROY). If I use that option, most of the time it's only the OP that gets it. If I extend the favour to the posters, its only after I've read all the posts (and deleted ones that weren't really malicious).

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Igotaname13

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Posted at: 5/31/09 03:10 PM

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When someone has just signed up make it when someone clicks forums that they get a pop up that shows the rules.

Also the rules need to be updated, they are a little stale. Now its just if a moderator thinks your worth discussing and what they think about you other than the rules.

A MOTHERFUCKING Ninja!

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Luxury-Yacht

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Posted at: 5/31/09 03:11 PM

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Well, I think that it would be helpful if the less official rules (like the one's on Zerok's userpage post) that can get people banned should be added to the official rule list that everyone can instantly see as long as those rules are going to be enforced. It's pretty discouraging to get banned for something that isn't even in the official BBS guidelines.


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JKMonkey

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Posted at: 5/31/09 03:12 PM

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I think that moderators should stop locking cool and fun threads, like the Scarriest Masturbation Moments thread, the Masturbate/Kill Yourself With Your Level Icon, why did they need to get locked? They were fun threads that people enjoyed reading and posting in.


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Holonboy

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Posted at: 5/31/09 03:14 PM

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At 5/31/09 11:00 AM, Jonas wrote: I'm not going to ban anyone posting in here provided you act civil.

Let's try to avoid flame wars, but I'm going to ask an honest question.

What can moderators be doing better? Is there something that annoys you about how things happen, or is there something you would like to see happen?

delete the BBS
I'm noticing that some users aren't enjoying the BBS, or worse leaving, and that's not best thing to see.

I actually just cleared several bans and sent apologies out solely because I made a mistake, and should have sent a warning to the users instead of banning them, and I want your guys opinion.

If you make a shitty post, I'll delete it, but realistically, let's chat and talk about how we can make the BBS a solid fun place again. It's cool if you don't see anything wrong with the BBS, and it's better if you can help me figure out what the users think.

I don't plan on banning people posting honest thoughtful opinions here, but I can't say promise that from other moderators, but at that point, that'd be a total chode thing to do.

So 4 cereal, here's the simple question

What can be improved on the BBS?

DISCLAIMER - Your opinion may be ignored if you're stupid.

I have a question. What is a flame war?

You can make the BBS better by first giving people warnings before the ban. If they get more then 3 warnings per month, then ban them. You should also tell the user why they were banned so they know what they did wrong. And the ban should be one day instead of two.

I'm bored. Click here and please click here.


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Zerok

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Posted at: 5/31/09 03:15 PM

Zerok EVIL LEVEL 34

Sign-Up: 03/27/00

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At 5/31/09 03:09 PM, Mendou wrote: I suggest creating an 'infraction' based system,

Ohhhh there's alllll sorts of things you can add to the BBS to make it run better and fairer. Like the whistle system implementation that Kevn suggested up there.

In my fantasies, I'll see a system that doesn't just punish bad BBS behaviour but overtly rewards good behaviour. Some sort of stat! It would run similarly to the whistle system (people can up-vote good posts) with all sort of intricate and clever hidden algorithms to prevent spam and refine the "scores" such that GOOD posters would have shiny profile credentials and people would aspire to achieve them.

BUT.

That kind of shit would take a long ass time for our staff to whip up and test. Like I said, is there really a need to put so much effort into such a thing? For what? To appease a few hundred folks who aren't REALLY being that inconvenienced? They could rather be working on something major and awesome (*cough* Art Portal *cough* Lit Portal) that affects tons of people everywhere positively.

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http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic /1059541 - GEOCACHING CLUB

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Twilight

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Posted at: 5/31/09 03:15 PM

Twilight EVIL LEVEL 08

Sign-Up: 03/01/08

Posts: 7,135

At 5/31/09 03:14 PM, Holonboy wrote: I have a question. What is a flame war?

A flame war is 2 or more people arguing in one thread over disagreements.

New MSN.TheIFUN: This torrent is going at a lightning fast speed of 0.0kb/s.QLC

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