Forum Topic: Open Discussion- The Bbs

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Sarai

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Posted at: 7/12/09 02:27 PM

Sarai LIGHT LEVEL 24

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Make somewhere people who meet the R age restriction (21 or 18) or whatever can post in maturity and peace.

Just two cents from a retired veteran.

The Newgrounds O-Ren-Ishii but with a nicer smile and still alive

Got Rice?

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Makeshift

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Posted at: 7/12/09 02:28 PM

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At 7/11/09 02:55 PM, Viridis wrote:
At 7/11/09 02:06 PM, naronic wrote: I'm not sure if this was already said but STOP BANNING PEOPLE FOR BACKSEAT MODDING
I really cant get how it hurts the bbs or breaks the rules in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM if not indefinably helping the bbs
Backseat Modding isn't suggesting that someone go to another forum.

No, I've been banned for saying "this should be in the VG Forum"

also, I don't get it either. If you help a police officer do you go to jail? Just for like tackling someone they're chasing for example? ... didn't think so.. unless you're some convict that broke outta jail

look: I changed my sig again.

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Digital-Terror

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Posted at: 7/12/09 02:28 PM

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At 7/12/09 02:27 PM, Sarai wrote: Make somewhere people who meet the R age restriction (21 or 18) or whatever can post in maturity and peace.

But then you'd have a bunch of people lying about their age, just to get in.

Maybe a 10,000 posts forum would be a good idea, ya?

Go to this fucking blog right now: http://inyourfaceheh.blogspot.com/

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WingCommand

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Posted at: 7/12/09 02:30 PM

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At 7/12/09 02:28 PM, Digital-Terror wrote:
At 7/12/09 02:27 PM, Sarai wrote:
But then you'd have a bunch of people lying about their age, just to get in.

Maybe a 10,000 posts forum would be a good idea, ya?

That is a silly idea, and it will never happen. Never.

Cwutididthar?
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Makeshift

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Posted at: 7/12/09 02:32 PM

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At 7/12/09 02:28 PM, Digital-Terror wrote:
At 7/12/09 02:27 PM, Sarai wrote: Make somewhere people who meet the R age restriction (21 or 18) or whatever can post in maturity and peace.
But then you'd have a bunch of people lying about their age, just to get in.

We could have it so everyone can't change their age. And just lock in everyone's age right now... then they couldn't change it and would have to wait til they turn 18 :D

But no.

look: I changed my sig again.

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WingCommand

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Posted at: 7/12/09 02:32 PM

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At 7/12/09 02:32 PM, Makeshift wrote:
At 7/12/09 02:28 PM, Digital-Terror wrote:
We could have it so everyone can't change their age. And just lock in everyone's age right now... then they couldn't change it and would have to wait til they turn 18 :D

But no.

Have you ever heard of a thing called Alt Accounts?

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Makeshift

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Posted at: 7/12/09 02:33 PM

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But there could be a "noobless" forum. everyone level ... 12 or higher? something like that...
or everyone that has been signed up for at least a year.

look: I changed my sig again.

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Digital-Terror

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Posted at: 7/13/09 01:04 AM

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At 7/12/09 02:33 PM, Makeshift wrote: But there could be a "noobless" forum. everyone level ... 12 or higher? something like that...
or everyone that has been signed up for at least a year.

Really, the best way to determine it would be through post count. If we set it too high, people won't have the incentive to spam to get to the number, yet very few people would be able to achieve it in the first place. If we set it too low, more users would be able to get in, yet we would have problems with inexperienced users.

Overall, there is no good way to be determined able to be in a "mature" forum, unless there was a scouting system in place, like the Art portal.

Keep in mind that lots of users who have high levels never posted more than a few times on the BBS, and lots of people have old accounts.

Go to this fucking blog right now: http://inyourfaceheh.blogspot.com/

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Blackfang

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Posted at: 7/13/09 01:11 AM

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Don't be annoyingly strict. Or if you- i can't think of anything else.


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MultiCanimefan

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Posted at: 7/13/09 01:54 AM

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At 7/12/09 02:28 PM, Makeshift wrote:
At 7/11/09 02:55 PM, Viridis wrote:
At 7/11/09 02:06 PM, naronic wrote:
No, I've been banned for saying "this should be in the VG Forum"

Did you remember to post a link to the VG forum? Just saying it should be in there isn't enough.

England I Canada Now STFU.

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zer0701

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Posted at: 7/13/09 03:03 AM

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I'm very satisfied with your work, guys! There's only one thing I would ask of you - please be more careful. I know, it's hard to pay a lot of attention to details when you have a buttload of work to do, but I once got banned for 7 days just for posting on a spam topic (and really, I didn't even think it was spam, it just looked like a funny topic). So, I don't think any mod would be that power-abusive, so the only thing I can think of was some kind of missclicking!

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bagle

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Posted at: 7/13/09 03:09 AM

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There should be an unlockable Forum for users level 12 or higher and 3,000 + post count.

It would give you something to reach for, plus, no spam topics or noobs.

I'm Delicious, Eat Me.

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I-RULE-OVER-ALL

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Posted at: 7/13/09 03:13 AM

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At 7/13/09 03:09 AM, bagle wrote: There should be an unlockable Forum for users level 12 or higher and 3,000 + post count.

It would give you something to reach for, plus, no spam topics or noobs.

That would encourage spamming and +1 post, and some spammers have a level over 12, that's a bad idea, it was also talked about before, and rejected.

The only was that would work is if people where given permission my a mod/admin to go there, without stats being a factor.


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michelinman

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Posted at: 7/13/09 03:15 AM

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At 7/13/09 03:09 AM, bagle wrote: There should be an unlockable Forum for users level 12 or higher and 3,000 + post count.

It would give you something to reach for, plus, no spam topics or noobs.

i'm neither of those but i've been signed up since '03. I WANT RIGHTS!!


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Jamoke

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Posted at: 7/13/09 04:09 AM

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At 7/11/09 02:06 PM, naronic wrote: I'm not sure if this was already said but STOP BANNING PEOPLE FOR BACKSEAT MODDING
I really cant get how it hurts the bbs or breaks the rules in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM if not indefinably helping the bbs

thats like sending a person to jail for suggesting a bill that could solve money issues

I will admit to having banned a few people for this offense. But let me explain something:

At 6/24/09 03:27 PM, Poster-A wrote: Sorry but this is the wrong forum for this thread. Here is where it you should have made it. *link*

This is helpful and polite. Most users who make a thread where it doesn't belong are new so they were not aware of the eclectic choices of forums here and what belongs where. Either that or they were too hasty to want to post they didn't bother even looking. In either case, letting them know in a courteous manner usually invokes a thankful response and sets the mood for that user's outlook on the bbs as helpful, which they may in turn emulate later on.

At 6/24/09 03:27 PM, Poster-b wrote: wrong forum, dipshit (provides no link as to where it should go)

This is not only unnecessary it's also unhelpful and pretty much fucking useless, not to mention rude.

Anyone new to the forum will immediately think this bbs is full of assholes because it usually takes only one bad apple to spoil the bunch. In turn that same new user will likely believe it is okay to show the same courtesy that was shown him/her and be just as much an unhelpful dick in the future. Ever seen that commercial where the boss yells at the supervisor, the supervisor then yell as the manager, the manager then yells at the employee, etc etc? It's just a chain reaction.

Any mod will tell likely tell you they have no problem when a user tries to be helpful, it makes the site look good and raises the collective maturity level. But when a user posts something with no inherent benefit and which has no other recourse other than to be taken as an insult towards another user, it makes us all look bad as a community.

There is a line between being helpful and being an asshole. We have to judge who falls into each category. It's usually not hard.

Let's look at another example:

At 6/24/09 03:27 PM, Poster-C wrote: this thread is crap and should be deleted
At 6/24/09 03:27 PM, Poster-D wrote: commencing ban in 3... 2...
At 6/24/09 03:27 PM, Poster-E wrote: IN B4 LOCK!

These are all examples of people being smartasses purely for the sake of being smartasses. They are basically +1 spam posts that do nothing except allow a potentially crappy thread to stay on the first page longer. This in turn gives other users a chance to post in them and fall into the spam thread trap and get banned themselves.

Not to mention there's the possibility the thread in question might not even be against the rules. Upon seeing a post such as one of these, a user might believe the thread is going to be locked/deleted/destroyed and they will be banned, and therefore not post. An otherwise decent thread might suffer for one person's poor judgment.

Finally, a backseat modding post sometimes sparks a flame-fest of users replying, "stfu noob, stop being an arrogant douche there's nothing wrong with my thread if you don't like it GTFO." This can derail the discussion and once again a potentially decent thread pays the penalty for one misguided post. Then the site looks bad for allowing that level of maturity.

All this is why it is best to just hit the back button and find another thread to post in instead of backseat modding. If you want to help another user, who can blame you for that? If you really want to help the mod team, do it privately via pm. If you care about the site and its image, don't needlessly be a dick in the publicly viewable forum. It's that simple.

At 7/13/09 03:09 AM, bagle wrote: There should be an unlockable Forum for users level 12 or higher and 3,000 + post count.

It would give you something to reach for, plus, no spam topics or noobs.

You can think that all you like, but the reality of the situation might surprise you.

This scenario does nothing but promote spamming. Special privileges based on stats leaves nothing but room for abuse. It's never a been a good idea.


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B4gle

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Posted at: 7/13/09 06:13 AM

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Well, for one, I seem to be hated because I express myself more freely then everyone else here and post pictures of myself from time to time.

Seriously. I get a few PM's a week calling me a fag or something stupid like that. I don't really get why. I see the same happening to a lot of other people. Not just me.

It doesn't help that it seems like mods are all competiting for the title of "biggest nazi mod".

Seriously, if the mods started being nicer, or if nice people started BEING mods, then this place would start looking a bit better. Everyone here always seems pissed off and is always looking for a arguement.

I left NG for a month and a half, because I got tired of all the pissed off assholes here, but I realized that without NG my life seems kind of dull in a way. With NG I get to post about things happening in my life and talk about it with you guys.

My only problem with newgrounds is that the average user is a lonely, angry, asshole.

Not to mention, 13 year olds almost ruin this site completly.

I don't know if this post is even going to be read since it's probably going to land in the middle of page 23, but I'll check back for a responce every now and then.

Jonas your one of the best mods

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citricsquid

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Posted at: 7/13/09 06:29 AM

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STOP BANNING FOR FAGGOT/FAGS

or at least make the rules clear. I was always under the impression you were allowed to say "faggot" or "fags" as long as it wasn't a personal attack on any specific person; for example "eyelovepoozy is a faggot" is bad, "They're such fags" is fine. I've never been banned for the second before and I've been doing it forever, then I get a 7 day for it.

That's the most annoying thing ever, not being banned for something but mods having double standards and vague rules with a shit tonne of ambiguity.

In fact, why can't we say any word as long as it isn't a person attack? I can understand n----- because that is blocked, so circumventing that filter is clearly pro actively trying to evade the rules, but saying "faggot" doesn't return "you can't say that!" so why can't we?

What's the reasoning behind disallowing the use of the word faggot? I can understand personal attacks, that's entirely reasonable, but outright banning a word? That's just silly, especially when mods differ in their opinion on the word, so one mod might let "they're all faggots" slide giving the impression it's entirely reasonable to use that phrase when others will give 30 days for it.


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michelinman

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Posted at: 7/13/09 06:39 AM

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well stuff like that is bound to happen because all mods have different opinions on things and they act accordingly. some think if a video is funny enough it deserves its own topic and won't even lock it, and others will delete it and ban people for it. it's just a matter of liberals and conservatives i guess. haha.


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Scarab

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Posted at: 7/13/09 10:50 AM

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The backseat modding issue isn't something that directly affects me, so I won't talk about often. With that in mind, I think what THEJamoke said about it with his examples is possibly the best way of looking at it. If we pretend for a moment that my opinion is incredibly important, I personally wouldn't see a lot of it as banning material, but I think it's worth considering when the whole thing is evolving into a flaming mess. As Jamoke said, it doesn't do much for the maturity of the place. I'm not one of those people that thinks things should be a lot harsher here, with solely "intelligent" discussion being allowed, but let's face it: getting into arguments about whether a thread should be locked, a user should be banned or whatever is... well, pretty stupid really.

My opinion is that if you see a thread that might benefit from a bit of assistance as to where it should be posted, just have your forum link ready to post, or even better, a specific thread where discussion on a subject is already in progress. You can leave it at that, I'm sure. However, if you see that it's already been posted by another user, you can leave the thread and just live your life (aeey, aeey, aeey). As I said, I'm no expert on this topic, but I think taking a bit more of a light-hearted approach to it results in a no-more-tears formula. I think it's important that if a user doesn't want to get banned for this sort of thing, they should try not to be so post-happy with the sort of thing that Jamoke listed as a bad example.

That's just something I've taken away from looking around here anyway, hmm. It applies to other things apart from backseat modding too, but I'm going off-topic, and I already can't really remember my original point.

At 7/13/09 06:13 AM, B4gle wrote: It doesn't help that it seems like mods are all competiting for the title of "biggest nazi mod".

My only problem with newgrounds is that the average user is a lonely, angry, asshole.

I think these are important points. I've posted the principles of what I think about the whole thing in some form or another a few times now, but I'll try to make this quick. People, regular users and mods alike, can do little things just to improve the atmosphere. It's bad news for your oh-so-important e-health if you set yourself on posting in every topic imaginable. For you try that, I'm betting that somewhere down the line you'll end up posting in a thread that a mod considers to be spam, and then you might end up banned. What happens then? You start forming negative attitudes towards all mods, and the resulting mix of accusations of abuse and "badassery" isn't fun at all.

I'm being as idealist as ever here, and it's not something that you'd change overnight. Still, it's a nice way of thinking if you just like having fun, laughing at some of the stuff users come up with (I mean that in a good way too), etc. Again, it's just little things you can do. My post on the last page responding to a post by EyeLovePoozy pretty much covers my opinions on the mod side of things.

I don't know if this post is even going to be read since it's probably going to land in the middle of page 23, but I'll check back for a responce every now and then.

No worries, I think I've read most posts in this thing because I don't have much of a life, or because I have some sort of unnatural binding obession with this place. It's interesting just to see what people think of the place though. I'm pretty sure quite a few others are looking over this thing time and time again too, so it's not gone to waste :)

At 7/13/09 06:39 AM, michelinman wrote: well stuff like that is bound to happen because all mods have different opinions on things and they act accordingly. some think if a video is funny enough it deserves its own topic and won't even lock it, and others will delete it and ban people for it. it's just a matter of liberals and conservatives i guess. haha.

Now that you've brought videos up, I believe it's generally a matter of whether you're using a video to trigger a discussion. It's something that's done more frequently in the politics forum, but it can be done in general too, easily. I remember Rucklo once made a thread (I can't remember for the life of me what it was called, so I can't link it) where he posted a link to a video on YouTube and wrote a few paragraphs of his own to go with it. A considerable amount of people got pointlessly upset at him because "he's a mod and just broke the rules". I think there's a real difference between posting "i just found this funny video" and actually finding something to talk about. The video thread was made for a reason, and I remember what it was sometimes like before it was created. On the flip side of things, if you want to see some random videos, flick through the video thread. It might be a typical thing to believe no one uses it... so go and use it!

That's that one out of my system. It's not specifically directed at you, just my thoughts and all that.

Last but not least for now... oh boy, the fag situation. I don't really have anything to say on it, and it's been discussed lots of times here already by mods and regular users. Put a little basically, I figure that if it's causing that much trouble, then just don't use it. Find another word or something, providing you're not all-out breaking the rules.

Hmm, I'm really not sure on this one, haha.


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Joshy94

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Posted at: 7/13/09 11:01 AM

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I think that you should give users a warning before banning them. Also, the rules need to be appended because they don't say anything about not posting in a spam thread.

The 4th post I posted here was in a spam thread thats title was just had a load of random letters, so I posted 'What's the point of this?" and got banned for it. There was nothing in the rules saying to not do that. Please fix the rules.


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Sheizenhammer

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Posted at: 7/13/09 12:30 PM

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At 7/13/09 11:01 AM, Joshy94 wrote: I think that you should give users a warning before banning them. Also, the rules need to be appended because they don't say anything about not posting in a spam thread.

The rules clearly state that you can be banned for your first offense, so that basically means the rules ARE your warning. However, you have a point about the spam topic thing. It really isn't anywhere in them.

There is one litle thing down at the bottom of the rules page though, under the 'guidelines' section. I forget the exact words, but it goes along the lines of: 'if you can't contribute to a thread, don't post in it'. Generally, spam topics are impossible to contribute to on account of having nothing of discussion-worthy value in them in the first place. I've been banned twice for the spam topic thing (apparently; I didn't even know about one of the bans until a mod told me about it a few days ago), and as a result I've been careful with dodgy-looking topics.

As a personal rule I follow, if it appears impossible to contribute anything to a thread, it's probably a spam topic. If it makes no coherent sense, contains referral links, NSFW pictures without any warning, obviously breaks the rules in one way or another, or is difficult to discern the real purpose of, it's at the very least likely to be a spam topic.

Remember: if in doubt, don't post. If you're having a hard time thinking up a legitimate post for something, it's probably best just to leave it and see if it gets deleted or not before posting a reply.

Questioning the point of a thread is not a legitimate post: if you have to ask, it's probably not worth posting in to begin with. Same goes for other stuff, like 'this thread is stupid', 'the OP is a troll', '*facepalm*', etc. If you find youself wanting to post stuff like this, just hit the 'back' button and find a better thread. If you're right about it being a spam / troll thread, a mod'll get rid of it pretty quickly.


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MaraquanWocky

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Posted at: 7/14/09 05:08 PM

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Mods sometimes ban people without a warning, and when you get the ban message, it says something like,(I'm just using Poozy as an example, this probably never happened)"LOLZ, ur an idiot, shut up now, K? -poozy" If the mods would stop doing that, and start telling people what they did wrong, maybe Newgrounders will like the BBS better.

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aviewaskewed

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Posted at: 7/16/09 12:29 AM

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At 7/11/09 02:06 PM, naronic wrote: I'm not sure if this was already said but STOP BANNING PEOPLE FOR BACKSEAT MODDING

No.

I really cant get how it hurts the bbs or breaks the rules in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM if not indefinably helping the bbs

Because a lot of times it's just +1 posting that adds nothing to a thread and just aggravates all involved. True backseat modding is things like "lock in *countdown*" "This will be locked* *This will be deleted* or other behavior where a user is overstepping their bounds and acting like a moderator. It's crap, you find a horrible thread you feel you want gone? Hit one of us up! There's almost always someone on and the mods always have time to help out legitimately concerned users who want the shitty threads gone. Backseat modding behavior just cheeses everyone off and adds nothing and I'd love for people to cut it out without needing to be banned, but sometimes that's the only way a mother fucker learns.

thats like sending a person to jail for suggesting a bill that could solve money issues

Again, you're acting like we're discouraging anyone from ever helping. Don't you think the definition of what backseat modding ACTUALLY is I just laid out is reasonable? If not, please to explain to me why it isn't. Because I really think this is an issue where you don't understand how we define the term.

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aviewaskewed

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Posted at: 7/16/09 12:38 AM

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At 7/13/09 06:29 AM, citricsquid wrote: STOP BANNING FOR FAGGOT/FAGS

No, and that is directly from Wade, no.

or at least make the rules clear. I was always under the impression you were allowed to say "faggot" or "fags" as long as it wasn't a personal attack on any specific person; for example "eyelovepoozy is a faggot" is bad, "They're such fags" is fine. I've never been banned for the second before and I've been doing it forever, then I get a 7 day for it.

Wade made a thread not too long ago (and it has been linked a couple times in this thread) saying it was no longer tolerated under any circumstances to be used. I don't see WHY people have a big need to use it anyway, there's a thousand other insulting words you can use that aren't prejudice and have such negative connotations against a specific group like fag does.

That's the most annoying thing ever, not being banned for something but mods having double standards and vague rules with a shit tonne of ambiguity.

Like I said, the rule is not vague, it's rule 1, which clearly states you get a ban for breaking it. What happened is we got lax about it, the admins corrected us and wanted us to take a zero tolerance stance on it and we have. It's not our fault you aren't being active enough to know that, or even just able to read this thread most of the way through to find the relevant links.

In fact, why can't we say any word as long as it isn't a person attack? I can understand n----- because that is blocked, so circumventing that filter is clearly pro actively trying to evade the rules, but saying "faggot" doesn't return "you can't say that!" so why can't we?

What's the reasoning behind disallowing the use of the word faggot? I can understand personal attacks, that's entirely reasonable, but outright banning a word? That's just silly, especially when mods differ in their opinion on the word, so one mod might let "they're all faggots" slide giving the impression it's entirely reasonable to use that phrase when others will give 30 days for it.

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SoulMaster71

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Posted at: 7/16/09 02:04 AM

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On the subject of "Backseat modding", I once got a ban for something like, I forget the exact wording, "You're talking about a Blam club, and not only is it against the rules, but it's also just as bad as or worse than what the spammers do" followed by a bit about how spammers didn't actually mass-vote on their submissions while UJ (this was before they started stealing Daily awards). At least that's how I remember it, though it was probably worded differently. Malachy took that as "backseat modding" and I went on a three-day vacation from the BBS. I guess it was his call to decide, but I was just trying to be helpful... For future reference (so I don't get banned again), where's the border between "helpful" and "backseat mod"?

Also, if anyone wants my two cents on the state of the BBS here it is. Basically it boils down to masturbation stories and generic school life shit getting noticed, my threads being ignored when I try to start some damn discussion, and me getting really, really pissed off about it.


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aviewaskewed

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Posted at: 7/16/09 02:26 AM

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At 7/12/09 02:27 PM, Sarai wrote: Make somewhere people who meet the R age restriction (21 or 18) or whatever can post in maturity and peace.

It's unworkable for reasons people already pointed out. Any verification system you can come up with to make that work can be compromised. The only thing I could even see coming close to working would be a pay system where there's sections of the site (including a board I guess) where you would be paying a nominal fee to access. Theoretically people wouldn't shit up something they pay to enjoy, but I don't see Tom going for it.

The best thing perhaps to do is go to a satellited forum (somewhere that other NG regs you don't hate go to) to supplment you're NG forum usage. I have one of those :)

Just two cents from a retired veteran.

All comments are appreciated, even if some of them are unworkable :)

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Jarvid

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Posted at: 7/16/09 02:29 AM

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I think a sattelite, or affiliate imageboard would be fun. One where posts that fall under other threads get deleted.

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citricsquid

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Posted at: 7/17/09 12:35 PM

citricsquid DARK LEVEL 23

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It would be nice if a moderator that isn't gumonshoe can explain how this heap of shit is allowed, yet every other attempt has been locked.

I was sure that it was conceeded a few pages back that mod double standards were a heap of shit and agreed that they shouldn't exist. Seriously, what? Furthermore, my posts outlining my opinion in that thread were deleted, yet posts about inane bullshit stay. How I hate the bbs.


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Scarab

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Posted at: 7/17/09 01:40 PM

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At 7/16/09 02:26 AM, aviewaskewed wrote: It's unworkable for reasons people already pointed out. Any verification system you can come up with to make that work can be compromised. The only thing I could even see coming close to working would be a pay system where there's sections of the site (including a board I guess) where you would be paying a nominal fee to access. Theoretically people wouldn't shit up something they pay to enjoy, but I don't see Tom going for it.

I do understand the thoughts of users like Sarai, and I've seen some of the older users arguing that a pay-per-view forum would be far better than what Newgrounds has now. I believe the argument tends to boil down to, "it works on Something Awful". Like you say though, there are problems with that itself. Tom not wanting to go for it is probably the most important point realistically. I talked about it briefly back on page 25 from my point of view too. One point I have, for example, is that while I love the community here, having a money system would essentially throw me out because I don't have a credit card. Okay, depending on your point of view that might not be a bad point, but for me it would be. On top of that, if a "mature" forum was made, I struggle to see how age could be properly defined otherwise. I think going off the age a user has in their profile would be a bad idea. After all, I'm pretty sure we don't have that many eighty year olds here.

At the end of the day, we're really stuck in that cycle of "beautify your home and you'll beautify your soul". We can work at making the atmospheres we want, but that probably wouldn't be easy. Besides, I don't think many people would volunteer to ultimately improve the environment on an Internet forum... especially one that has a community with established quirks and so on.

The best thing perhaps to do is go to a satellited forum (somewhere that other NG regs you don't hate go to) to supplment you're NG forum usage. I have one of those :)

I agree with that being a good idea too. It works better for experienced regulars too, in that you don't suffer from that "no one cares " vibe that comes when you make your own forum (well, not as much as a newer user might have to). I know a few have worked in the past, with an NG focus in the user base or not. I also believe that most of the forum systems allow the host to set it to restricted membership if they want to, making the age thing all the more possible.

I still need to get stuck into your forum by the way :)


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Jonas

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Posted at: 7/17/09 02:31 PM

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At 7/17/09 12:35 PM, citricsquid wrote: It would be nice if a moderator that isn't gumonshoe can explain how this heap of shit is allowed, yet every other attempt has been locked.

Here's a pretty straight forward answer citric, IT SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED.

It's a garbage heap of a thread, and a blight on the untarnished reputation of the General forum.

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