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We're still going to need to control Newfags and Underage Users. All the most of you have done is complain about the bansticks. Maybe the bansticks would be lightened with the decrease of immaturity.

Also, making grammar a rule. I'm getting tired of trying to read chatspeak when I can only read English.

Well, there are times or there are topics or discussions pulled off that are not interesting or it was created long ago and recreate one again. It was like I averaged 70 posts per day because I was active in the General and C&C Forum and now, I am achieving 1 post per day. I am just sharing my opinion and side about how I am upset with the BBS of today.

At 6/2/09 08:48 PM, jmalouin7 wrote: you got kicked because you were annoying the fuck out of everyone in there.

Wait... how the fuck was I annoying everyone there? Oh yes, we were all having a discussion about the situation in North Korea, but this one faggot who was lucky enough to be modded wanted people to stop talking about it for no fucking reason. So I go AFK for about an hour, and when I come back on, I see everyone is still discussing it. So I actually start typing, "Guys, enough about NK." but just as I'm doing so,he says he is going to kick anyone who says anythign about NK, once again for no fucking reason, and just as I've said "Enough on NK" he kick me. Sure, that is great non-nonsensical logic isn't it? And yes, this one user does count for everyone.

At 6/3/09 01:48 PM, NEVR wrote: If you've been treated unfairly and the mod who treated you unfairly won't budge from their orignal position, then just forget it and move on.

Sorry, I feel I need to elaborate this.

Sometimes both people feel like they're right when in fact one (or both) may be wrong. In these situtions, nobody is going to budge from their position, so somebody has to put their hands up and say "fair enough, we disagree on this matter, but there's no point arguing about it, so I apologise if you feel I'm in the wrong." The other person can then apologise too, or be petty about it. If they apologise, then the situation has resolved itself in the larger sense... and if not, then you've been the bigger person.

Hopefully you guys know what I mean, lol.

At 6/3/09 01:52 PM, youngblood26 wrote: Well, there are times or there are topics or discussions pulled off that are not interesting or it was created long ago and recreate one again. It was like I averaged 70 posts per day because I was active in the General and C&C Forum and now, I am achieving 1 post per day. I am just sharing my opinion and side about how I am upset with the BBS of today.

I already got onto that. It's the user's job to encourage the power to put in better topics and put in less stupid topics.

but if they want to make their opinion known and it matches that of another user, why can't they make it known?

This reminds me, Jiggmin's forums have an option where you can thank a user for making a post... Kind of like how we can mark reviews Useful or Useless, except you see who thanked them. Perhaps we could implement this to cut down on the +1 posts? Additionally, the individual +1's aren't too bad, but when you have to leaf through a thread that's 60% spam posts, it gets annoying.

Also, if a post is deleted, I think we should get a PM about it so we know why, and the same for if we're banned. If we don't notice/don't try to post within short periods of time, we'll never know what we did wrong. And on a side note, we should get our posts PMed to us if they're deleted, so that we can edit them and re-post them in a rule-abiding manner. I made a very long and thoughtful post in Malachy's thread, but I think I asked 2 or 3 questions he said the moderators would not be answering, and the WHOLE post was deleted. If nothing else, it would have been nice if he had quoted my legit, rule-abiding sections of the post, answered it, and THEN deleted my post.

At 6/3/09 01:51 PM, igott wrote: Also, making grammar a rule.

Hahaha, seriously? Hey I hate 1337 speak as much as everyone else, but you just can't control what / how people post. It would be highly unfair to ban someone for a week for saying "Pwnz0r" instead of "I win!". Yes, it annoying as all hell to see it, and read it, but there's no rule against "please speak only proper English, or you will be banned 4EVR", it can't be done.

What makes a topic stupid? A stupid topic in my opinion are those new "How fast can you masturbate" and "How long can you masturbate" threads. It's not that I don't enjoy the occasional penis thread, but c'mon now, two of them made in nearly the same day?

At 6/3/09 02:09 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote: What makes a topic stupid? A stupid topic in my opinion are those new "How fast can you masturbate" and "How long can you masturbate" threads. It's not that I don't enjoy the occasional penis thread, but c'mon now, two of them made in nearly the same day?

It's gone, lol.

You know what would be good? A monthly "BBS feedback" thread, in which users (normal AND mods) leave their opinion on how the BBS experience has been for them that month.

Aah it's hard to explain, but do you understand what I mean?

At 6/3/09 01:48 PM, NEVR wrote: Yes, but that's up to the individual mod. As much as we try to stick together about things (we are a team after all), we're ultimately all different people, so some of us will admit when we're wrong, and others will have too much pride to do so.

That's also the thing, it's not all mods which are seen as pricks. For example, I have no problem with you. I hardly ever see you lock topics, and when I have seen you do so I've always thought they've been justified. However, some mods are very quick to grab their ban stick. WilliWowza made the point about how regular uses are treated like dumbfucks who constantly break the rules.

Hell, even new users who do something minor are immediatly banned. When I was new I broke some minor rules which aern't on the official rules. For example, I posted in a spam thread, which I was promptly banned for. There is no rule which says 'no posting in spam threads, they only fuel the flames'. Surely a warning could have been issued first? When a child does something wrong, their parent will tend to tell them what they've done wrong before issuing punishment. And that's what you guys are like, the parents of the BBS. You should explain to the user what they have done first, and if they repeat the offence, then you punish them.

Worst then all of that though is when mods give no clear indication of what a user has done wrong. They'll issue a ban or lock a thread with out fully explaining what this user has done. You're not gonna learn if you don't know what you've done wrong.

And for the mods who say they haven't got time for noobs, and they should learn the hard way, you're the ones who have volunteered your time to look after the BBS. If that means helping new users, so be it. No one's forcing you to be a moderator, you've chosen to accept that role, and with it certain reponsibilites.

I respect you mods, I just wish some would take a little more care.

At 6/3/09 01:48 PM, NEVR wrote: Perhaps, but I think there are other reasons for those regulars leaving as well. I don't want to see regs leaving, but if they are set on leaving then there's probably myriad factors involved in their decision.

I agree with this, and I understand what you mean about not liking regulars leaving; I feel the same, especially when I've known them for a while. I know forum mods have been underlined as a factor by users like WilliWowza as to why they're are deciding to stop using the BBS, or use it less often. Those individual users will often point out specific factors pertaining to BBS moderation, but I think there tends to be other things too, like you say. I've found that a user simply moving on in their life, moving onto things where they'll be busy more often, going to places where they'll have less time to use an Internet forum regularly. Yes, I believe there are specific times where what some mods do could possibly be a turn off to some, some of which I've discussed a little myself. I certainly don't think, as I've been saying, that regulars leaving is 100% down to "Nazi moderation" though, and as this thread has shown, not everyone hates the mods by any means. As I and a few others have said, it's really a two way street in more ways than one... erm, two. Ah, you'll get what I mean hopefully.

At 6/3/09 01:51 PM, igott wrote: We're still going to need to control Newfags and Underage Users. All the most of you have done is complain about the bansticks. Maybe the bansticks would be lightened with the decrease of immaturity.

Someone has already said something similar to this, so sorry for not giving credit where it's due here: I think that's one of those things that's easier said than done, at least, the underage users part. I know a lot of people say Newgrounds has changed for the worse in this way, but in my opinion, it's not Newgrounds that's changed: it's the Internet that's changed. There are so many more commerical oppurtunities online compared to what there was in, say, 2001. There's a huge online market for young people, and that's where "even younger" people will catch on. Newgrounds naturally become a popular site for these pre-teens because of its content. I'll admit now that I was twelve when I was first introduced to this place, through a friend showing my a Flash movie.

I do agree though that improving much of the behaviour (in regards to "immaturity" and "maturity") would lower the rate of bans being dished out, of course. Again, I think that's a collective effort, but I also think a lot of the bad things about the threads etc. are exaggerated. I guess I say that because I tend to only remember threads I like. If I'm not interested in something, or see it as downright stupid, I tend to just forget about it. Hmm, personal feeling.

I feel like I'm off on a tangent here, not really knowing what I'm saying. Anyway, hopefully it's something anyway. Yes, I like being serious on the Internet and all that.

At 6/3/09 02:03 PM, Elios wrote:

At 6/3/09 01:51 PM, igott wrote: Also, making grammar a rule.

but there's no rule

Jesus, it's like you guys can't recite the rules page from memory.

# Use proper punctuation and grammar.

It's right there, along with other "simple guidelines".

At 6/3/09 03:48 AM, crapatflash wrote: I don't think I've ever seen a mod give out a warning before... If it's an obvious attempt at a flame or troll then yeah, ban them, but otherwise you need to be more specific. Having BBS rules open to read I think is pretty pointless. I mean, if you bought a new video game, how many of you would read the instruction manual? You wouldn't, you would just jump right in and get the feel for the controls yourself.

The video game will not ask you if you've read the instruction manual as a term of use. But this BBS will. So by checking the box that says you read and understand the forum rules, you agreed to be bound by them. You guys that seem to think that's no big deal are going to have a lot of problems in life if you don't start taking contracts, terms of service, and any document that requires that once you sign it you be bound to it's terms and conditions seriously.

At 6/3/09 02:28 PM, Fyndir wrote: Jesus, it's like you guys can't recite the rules page from memory.

# Use proper punctuation and grammar.

It's right there, along with other "simple guidelines".

Well i know that. What i'm getting from igott is making anything other than proper english a bannable offense, maybe he meant something else, i don't fully know. I write my posts properly so everyone knows exactly what i'm trying to say.

At 6/3/09 02:28 PM, Fyndir wrote:

At 6/3/09 02:03 PM, Elios wrote:

At 6/3/09 01:51 PM, igott wrote: Also, making grammar a rule.

but there's no rule

Jesus, it's like you guys can't recite the rules page from memory.

# Use proper punctuation and grammar.

It's right there, along with other "simple guidelines".

It's a guideline, I'm saying to make it a rule.

At 6/3/09 01:54 PM, Sammeh wrote:

At 6/2/09 08:48 PM, jmalouin7 wrote:

fighting

fighting

Take it to PM's both of you, or I will ban you both. This topic is NOT for you to take your feud's public.

That goes for anybody I see here since this is the second time somebody has needed to be warned not to feud in public. This is not the "air you're grievances with everyone in public" thread. Use the PM system for that or take a vacation.

Only warning about that.

At 6/3/09 02:42 PM, igott wrote: It's a guideline, I'm saying to make it a rule.

I think the problem with it as a hard and fast rule is that you will scare off people who might get better with time. I agree people shouldn't treat a bulletin board like a chat room or a text message, if we can't read your stuff, and it's a consistent problem, you're stuff is gone, we're already doing that. I don't see where it needs to be upgraded to a rule, and I think it will cause more bans not just for the violator, but for the kind of grammar nazis that feel the need to go around and correct people's spelling, or crap all over their posts saying "I can't read that" as now they could go "good grammer is a rule now, you should be banned" and it's one more thing to backseat mod about.

I think we're good on that being a guideline at present, I think some people start out rough, and they improve, if they're getting banned a lot out of the gate, they may not want to spend that time to improve or ever come back again.

Also, it gets kind of annoying when threads like "Zombie Facts" get overrun with people who are more interested in derailing other peoples' posts than actually going along with the thread and having a good time.

And about the common editing posts concern, I'm pretty sure it's so that someone can't make a useful post and then replace it with some crap after it's been linked to or quoted. Not positive, but I'm pretty sure that's why. However, it would be nice if we could ADD to our posts, like adding on side notes or 'what I meant to say...' or 'I forgot to add...' and stuff like that, so we wouldn't have to worry about double-posting and stuff. I know mods have no jurisdiction over that kind of stuff, but it would be worth PMing an admin about.

At 5/31/09 01:21 PM, Laughingbox wrote: First off, I want to ask the programmers of the BBS. Is there an way for a new "never posted before" user to be forced to see the rules?

Now this would be a bit ridiculous, but you could make a kind of Flash game you have to pass. You'd start off with a button at the side of the screen that prevents you from moving the mouse out, and a copy/paste only password in font 1 to clear Clipboard so users couldn't copy/paste. Then, you'd be given the BBS rules and you'd have to type them out again and hit the Next button. And things like the Windows button, or Ctrl+Alt+Delete, and right-clicking would restart the 'game' so you couldn't cheat. Purely theoretical, and somewhat OCD, but I don't see a reason why it wouldn't work.

I know when i'm about to get banned, every time.

Reminds me of a time when I posted something, and then I was like "crap crap!!" and trying to close the tab before the page finished loading.

Now, let's take a thread that may have either been true or false. However it may be, let's look at the comments. Of the next ten replies, nine are by a different person than the OP. Of the nine, 6 were either +1's, or generally a load of crap that we shouldn't have or shouldn't have to deal with on the BBS. General harassment, unfunny jokes.

Got to page 6, but I can't muscle through any more of this.

At 6/3/09 02:46 PM, aviewaskewed wrote: you're stuff is gone

I burst out laughing when I noticed your error.

I guess I'm exactly the kind of person who would end up pissing you all off if grammatical correctness was 100% required and enforced.

At 6/3/09 02:53 PM, Kwing wrote:

At 5/31/09 01:21 PM, Laughingbox wrote: First off, I want to ask the programmers of the BBS. Is there an way for a new "never posted before" user to be forced to see the rules?

Now this would be a bit ridiculous

I think there's actually a little box that you have to check when you first post that states that you agree to comform to the BBS rules, etc. Still, I imagine most people just check the box and don't read the rules, so it's their own fault ifthey get banned after that, really.

At 6/3/09 02:12 PM, SCUD14 wrote:

At 6/3/09 02:09 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote:

You know what would be good? A monthly "BBS feedback" thread, in which users (normal AND mods) leave their opinion on how the BBS experience has been for them that month.

Aah it's hard to explain, but do you understand what I mean?

I do. And to the range of ideas as a whole:

With regards to most of the changes irrelevant to the mods, most of the suggestions rely on trust. As in we need to give the users of the proposed feedback system the benefit of the doubt when they leave their opinion.

At 6/3/09 02:53 PM, Kwing wrote: Also, it gets kind of annoying when threads like "Zombie Facts" get overrun with people who are more interested in derailing other peoples' posts than actually going along with the thread and having a good time.

That's where you need to look at the "who's online?" list, and PMing a mod that is on at the time. You're threads don't HAVE to get overrun, you can PM a mod and have them take care of it before it gets out of hand. STOP ASSUMING MODS READ EVERYTHING OR HAVE TIME TO READ EVERYTHING!! We don't, this forum is massive, if you don't want threads you like to become pits that we have no recourse but to lock or delete, then you need to report when they're getting shit in. If you don't want to do that, live with losing the thread. Harsh? Probably, but it's the truth.

And about the common editing posts concern, I'm pretty sure it's so that someone can't make a useful post and then replace it with some crap after it's been linked to or quoted. Not positive, but I'm pretty sure that's why. However, it would be nice if we could ADD to our posts, like adding on side notes or 'what I meant to say...' or 'I forgot to add...' and stuff like that, so we wouldn't have to worry about double-posting and stuff. I know mods have no jurisdiction over that kind of stuff, but it would be worth PMing an admin about.

I've never seen something like that, what I've seen is either full edit ability, or nothing. There are people who can't be trusted with full edit. To me, I don't do much about double posting, if you post only like twice in a row, and it's not garbage it's all on topic and interesting, I leave it be. If you're going over two, or it's short and crappy, or it gets to be a habit, then I will do something about it. Otherwise I think it's fine, and if you accidentally post the same thing twice, then I just delete the extra post and do nothing beyond that. That's how I personally do it and think it oughtta be done. Sometimes we all do it, long as it isn't habitual or excessive, I don't think it's worth being a hard ass over, so I still don't think a post edit is needed. Again, if people would proof read their shit before hitting the "post it!" button, that would handle problems too.

At 6/3/09 02:56 PM, Fyndir wrote: I guess I'm exactly the kind of person who would end up pissing you all off if grammatical correctness was 100% required and enforced.

You have indeed made my point. Like I say EVERYBODY makes little mistakes from time to time. People who can't communicate properly get corrected good enough already.

Concerning the editing posts feature...

While I whole-heartedly believe that editing should be implemented... I think if anyone deserves a post edit button, the mods need it the most.

I recently viewed a thread where a new user posted about free prescription drugs over the internet. Needless to say, the mod did lock up, but could not remedy the issue of the link still being present.

If mods had an edit button, things like that would be sorted quickly and efficiently.

It would also be awesome to see mods abusing it.

At 5/31/09 11:00 AM, Jonas wrote:

So 4 cereal, here's the simple question...

There's only two things I would like to see here on the BBS that are slowly driving me farther and farther away from here, and leaving the community I love so much.

The first of these is that I would like to see no more rules made without a referendum across all boards. Recently there was a new rules announced totally out of the blue banning another everyday occurrence from the forums. If there was a referendum on all rules made on the BBS, the mature regs would probably get more from the site, or at least that's my opinion.

The second is I would like to see all "ALL<object/idea/page> GO HERE OR BAN!" threads disbanded, and no more created. Since this is a forum for everything and anything within limits, then topics shouldn't be grouped together because it prevents the individual subjects from gaining the publicity they deserve IMHO.

That is all. Thoughts, mods?

At 5/31/09 11:56 AM, BobbaQ wrote:

- Have a "post/review of the week" competition and have prizes (not relevant I know but a good
- Change a users level icon into a cake when it's their birthday (how awesome would that be?).

Dude those are AWESOME ideas!

The mods haven't really done anything to kill the BBS's fun. The users have.

Really, I would like the see the banning because the user is posting in a spam thread to stop, there is really no point in it. Isn't deleting the thread itself enough? Banning everyone who posted in it is a little bit overkill don't you think?

At 6/3/09 04:29 PM, Frank-The-Hedgehog wrote: Really, I would like the see the banning because the user is posting in a spam thread to stop, there is really no point in it. Isn't deleting the thread itself enough? Banning everyone who posted in it is a little bit overkill don't you think?

We have the option to ban just the OP when destoying a spam thread. The options to ban everyone who posted in the thread are there for when everyone else is making things worse, in which case I think it's fair enough to ban those users too.

The destroy feature is something that should be used less, though, IMO.

Keep in mind that I actually have READ THE ENTIRE FUCKING THREAD (because I always abide the lurk first, post 2nd rule) so I hope I'm entitled to post here. That's right; I read all 20 pages.

Now to start off, I want to quote some people who I agree/want to address with:

At 6/3/09 02:07 AM, Crash-and-burn31 wrote: the ngbbs is shit always has been always will be thank you and goodnight

This man is right. Too many smartass posts being made like '/thread' (even though Poozy addressed this) and too many shit threads (especially the ones involving sexual activity). It gives new users a poor impression of this forum.

At 6/3/09 02:45 AM, molekh wrote: get rid of post counts

Another thing I agree on. Many posts are being deleted because a mod FEELS like they are desperate to increase their post count. This is very annoying for I have posted a lot in one day and suffered a few deletions (despite the effort put into the post). Even if my posts are long (which is why my post count is extremely low), they still get deleted because of a mod's opinion.

At 5/31/09 11:21 AM, SymbolCymbal wrote: personally i see terrible 3 word posts that have nothing to do with the thread.. some people just say OMG EPIC FAIL. or something else retarded like using some sort of meme... or they just insult the OP.

Can I add on to this? Not only do these posts stay up, but LEGITIMATE posts are being taken down while posts insulting the OP or whoever with racist language remains there. You mods are sometimes doing the fucking opposite.

But now onto complaining about the mods. i really dont have many complaints. But when i post something along the lines of something like why i cant join the blue man group because im not at least 5'9'' and fucking malachy comes along and locks it saying it should be in my blog.. Seriously wtf

This too. The POINT of making a thread is for the TOPIC to get some fucking exposure. In your news post, nobody is going to go there. In the BBS, there are A LOT of users. If someone makes a story and wants feedback, normally Mal comes and says 'blog it' which is irritating to see.

Lighten up please. Cock joke threads and shit stay up while some interesting threads get locked with the word 'blog it' at the end. You want the BBS to be composed of cock jokes, sex and rape? I can see how it's bullshit now.

At 5/31/09 05:23 PM, AniMetal wrote: Also I think you guys should ALLOW game threads. Why? They tend to be VERY fun and entertaining.

I mean I think there should be limits to the games like if the thread gets out of hand lock it, if a user keeps posting give him a warning(And eventually a ban), etc.

Just limit every user 1 - 3 posts in a game thread and lock the thread when it's done being fun.

I had all this shit planned out in my forum game yet the mods disapproved of it.

Bottom line: Not going to happen. Not for the mods I guess. Go for admin approval to launch a forum game. You may get extremely lucky like I did and actually have an admin review the rules and stuff. Once that is done, if the admin approves of it, mods won't interfere.

Lock message from Sanjay for my game: "Mods win, Game over!" YOU CALL THAT FUCKING PROFESSIONAL???

At 5/31/09 10:11 PM, WeHaveFreshCookies wrote: But it's the users right to do that. It's actually a good thing when it's done right. Recently, I had a misunderstanding with a mod and I politely and respectfully presented my case via PM. After only two PMs, we came to an understanding and my ban was lifted. PMs about bans are a good thing as long as the user doesn't just yell and call names.

Same situation I had. Mal banned me for 30 days for being an insane dick to him. He said he would PERMANENTLY revoke my BBS privileges (once the 30 day ban expires, he would add another 30 day ban) until we end that shit right there. 10 days I didn't bother to talk to him since I thought it was a fucking trap. Then he discovered my bitching news post and we ended our shit right there. My 30 day ban dropped from 17 days to 10 hours.

At 5/31/09 10:45 PM, Sensationalism wrote: Also, mods shouldn't hold grudges against people and go after them every time they post.

I already have 1-3 mods doing that.

I'll shut up now because people don't like to read here.

This is another problem the BBS is having and mods ought to delete posts and ban users if it is clear that they didn't read the entire thread (or at least the OP's post). Hell, I made a fucking thread about it.

At 5/31/09 11:42 PM, Malachy wrote: this is the only post out of the bunch that I want to respond to...simply because I have no idea what you're talking about.

Haha, so the almighty sir has arrived. Okay, let's see what he has to say...

The only thing I really have to say is that I am not that opinionated.

FAIL. Right there. Malachy, you know what I'm talking about. Think 2-3 months ago.

I don't really understand where you get the idea that I am, considering I rarely get into a strong debate in the politics forum.

Screw this. Look in the Where is/How to? forum. Especially in your Review Answers 2.0 thread (although that was with reviews, not BBS posts). Also, remember our incident in that Sonic thread? Not to mention the failing persuasion you gave to try and stop me from flagging abusive reviews and to take down Part 2. It isn't going down Mal. It's staying there; whether or not you like it.

If your post was not all that mature or even well thought out, it may be deleted.

Lie. I've seen a lot of bullshit posts and even if there are 8 mods online, they still remain. It's the intelligent posts made by smart users that get removed (because of a potential troll). Remember my first trolling ban you imposed? (Look at my ban record mods.) That is a perfect example.

~~~

You mods really got to get your shit together. No more 'Jade's rules' or 'Poozy's rules' or whatever when it comes to moderation the BBS. I have been unfairly banned in some cases because of these 'pet-peeves' some mods have. ABIDE BY THE FUCKING BBS RULES. Also, I directly address this MAINLY to Malachy: STOP BEING AN OPINIONATED MORON. Enough with banning people because their opinion does not agree with yours. BAN because they broke the rules. You mods judge by YOUR OPINIONS. If you hate someone; BAN (and find a shit reason for ban). If you hate a thread, LOCK or DELETE. If you hate a post because your opinion differs, DELETE (regardless how well written the post is). This is all because of INDIVIDUAL OPINION; not because of the breaking of the BBS rules. If the user that was banned unfairly because of their opinion, you will use one of the BBS rules THEN to ban him/her again. It starts with unfairness and ends up with a huge mess (like I had with Malachy once) that is extremely hard to clean up.

~ Off-topic stuff approaching ~

The same shit occurs when review moderation although I find this more annoying than BBS moderation. Reviews get flagged. Blatant reviews get deleted. However, the problem begins when borderline reviews are thrown in the way. One mod may delete it where as another mod may clear the flags with or without penalty. Some victim may face penalty because of the mod that judged the borderline review whereas another user may get lucky if a different mod deleted the review or cleared flags without penalty. Keep moderation close to the review guidelines; not because of YOUR opinion or what YOU think is abusive or not. The review moderation team also didn't get their act together along with the forum moderation team.

~

I'm keeping my stuff as concise as possible because I know most people (including some mods) hate to read. If I need to elaborate, I will gladly will. I'm not interested in posting because of my post count so I won't elaborate thoroughly unless needed.

It would be cool if a Review & BBS mod addressed this but I'm open for feedback from any forum mod.

I actually gave this a few hours worth of thought and I have more to say about the BBS but I'll say it later (if it's even worth saying in the first place). I am still yet to address Jonas' first post but I'll probably do that later.