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At 5/19/09 06:01 PM, KaynSlamdyke wrote:

At 5/19/09 05:04 PM, Glaiel-Gamer wrote: One thing I do is give solutions in psuedo-code or faux-c++ or just type some AS in the "post reply" box without testing.

So the logic is there, but if people want to make it work they have to understand what it does.

Yeah. I've done that a few times.
But then the reply is immediately "So how do I do that in AS?" from the half of the people who aren't here to learn.

It's not that they aren't here to learn, it's that they have no coding experience, so don't have a clue how to go about tackling a problem. I firmly believe that the best way to help new Flash coders is to simply solve their problem, in AS. Yes, they may just copy/paste it into their fla, but as I said above, they're either gonna have to learn to adapt it in order to make a unique game, or they're just going to get a hell of a lot of 'you copied xxxxx' reviews.

By posting an answer in another language or using pseudocode, you're automatically making the assumption that the OP has some kind of clue about scripting or coding. Which is naive, considering that many, MANY users only learn to code by starting with AS. Some have a natural affinity with loops, classes, if...elses, listeners, etc etc. But many simply do not have a clue about the logical aspect of coding, or even the syntax. There's really no shame in actually fixing a user's code/fla, giving them the working code, and moving on. I personally would really like to see more of the experienced users do exactly that.

Never assume that the newbs have even a fraction of the skills you had when you STARTED with Flash, let alone those you have now after years of using it.

At 5/19/09 08:02 PM, Denvish wrote:

At 5/19/09 06:01 PM, KaynSlamdyke wrote:

At 5/19/09 05:04 PM, Glaiel-Gamer wrote: One thing I do is give solutions in psuedo-code or faux-c++ or just type some AS in the "post reply" box without testing.

wisdom..

Ihave to agree. Also if new users don't get it they might get discouraged and quit as opposed to having the code given to them so they can find out how cool it is and start learning it..

At 5/19/09 08:02 PM, Denvish wrote: Never assume that the newbs have even a fraction of the skills you had when you STARTED with Flash, let alone those you have now after years of using it.

I realize some people might have trouble translating psuedo-code, but I generally answer like that for questions that are more logical in nature rather than syntactical. For instance, if someone asks how to do a score counter or how to make a button or how to make the character go to frame 2 if his life is less than zero, I'll answer in AS (using version 3 if they don't specify, it's good to get them started with it instead of teaching them the bad habits of version 2). Buf if someone asks how to do accurate collision with a circle and an axis aligned rectangle, or how to make one object accelerate towards another, I'll answer in psuedo-code.

You can kinda tell from the way they ask the question how experienced they are, and even if I answer in psuedo code at first and they aren't, they'll at least try to think about it before someone explains it further.

I think it's important to give pseudocode to get the person thinking for themselves rather than relying on someone else to think out a problem for them. I agree it is very rewarding to figure out an individual's code/problem, however, they're not going to learn anything by shoving a heap of code at them. I think pseudocode should be given to solve the problem and links to relevant syntax to encourage the individual to learn, but you should also make yourself available for follow-up questions and general support.

See animan, you just brought up something really important though. There are a ton of shnooks though, that would rather come here, and have the answer laid before them, rather than sort it out themselves. That's preposterous. You will never understand a goddamn thing about any version of AS if you don't work to find the answer on your own, and we all know it. Help, in a jam, is a wonderful thing, but it means little without any lasting understanding. I mean, I read a post a few hours ago, where Neo-13 got dissed by some uppity punk for helping him out. WTF?

At 5/19/09 08:02 PM, Denvish wrote: It's not that they aren't here to learn, it's that they have no coding experience, so don't have a clue how to go about tackling a problem. I firmly believe that the best way to help new Flash coders is to simply solve their problem, in AS

Never assume that the newbs have even a fraction of the skills you had when you STARTED with Flash, let alone those you have now after years of using it.

Wise. But this is making a few assumptions of its own.

One is that people are here to learn. A lot of the times, they're not. A lot of people aren't doing this because they want to see thier names in lights and be known for thier flash code skillz. A lot of people are here because they're doing a project at school and want it out of the way as fast as possible, or just want to have a menu done and dusted so they can showcase thier animation talents, or merely need a cool effect for a website and, most importantly, do not want to spend days learning an entire language so they can work out what they want to achieve.

This is fine. Honestly, this is fine. What does it matter if one kid needs four lines of code for his project to turn it from a B to an A? What does it matter if someones menu looks better without them doing months of legwork? But we can't expect these people to actually WANT to learn. They're busy and aren't going to change the world even if we extend the olive branch of Akchunskript to them.

This is all armchair philosophy anyway. We know when we read a post who's making an effort, and who's not, and whether they'll understand a psuedocode response (with, most importantly, some relevant flash hints) or need a step by step guide to how the clipboard works and how to use the mouse. Its all in the post context, and all responses should reflect it.

Remember kids. If you can't post something useful, don't post anything at all.

At 5/19/09 11:53 PM, doctormario wrote: I mean, I read a post a few hours ago, where Neo-13 got dissed by some uppity punk for helping him out. WTF?

This is another thing that annoys me. People seem to think that by posting here they are some how entitled to helpful and speedy reply. When people bump their thread every 10mins and throw tantrums because someone hasn't posted the exact code they want that works perfectly it really makes my blood boil.

Both the helpers and helpees need to shape up...

At 5/19/09 11:53 PM, doctormario wrote: I read a post a few hours ago, where Neo-13 got dissed by some uppity punk for helping him out. WTF?

i think i saw that.

anyways,
- i hate it when you write pseudocode and clearly mark it, and someone that thinks there better than you rewrites the pseudocode in full working code then tells you how many mistakes you made and insult both of you.

- "If you bothered to read the adobe documentation you'd know" you use this, although your alternative solution was also correct and uses less memory or whatever.

- "dont post here" is not polite, and i dont think anyone should say this to anyone.

anyways we all make mistakes or get lazy/forgetful/drunk and we're all guilty of miss behaving at times.

At 5/19/09 11:53 PM, doctormario wrote: I mean, I read a post a few hours ago, where Neo-13 got dissed by some uppity punk for helping him out. WTF?

I'm pretty sure I was that one, there was a guy asking about coding and physics.
('Some' uppity punk? Psh.)

You will never understand a goddamn thing about any version of AS if you don't work to find the answer on your own, and we all know it. Help, in a jam, is a wonderful thing, but it means little without any lasting understanding.

Exactly. The guy says he's interested in physics and has his shit down, asks me to explain how physics engines work, then posts a code that multiplies a particle's velocity with gravity. And he's not new.
It's freaking sad. If you're like that, grab a laptop and crawl under a rock some.
He does want to learn, but the effort is in the wrong place, and you kids interrupting me to weep about how everyone started somewhere isn't going to help.

Of course, I'm very sorry if I anger people just because I'm always disappointed, for I am a kid and I have not yet grown to accept the immense, deep stupidity and ignorance you people harbor and consider normal. I don't know what I'm looking for.

I come here because I like the feeling of, after showing those latest three hundred lines lines of code who's boss, taking my mind off it and nailing something else. Answering questions helped me pick up things without having to work myself too, earlier. But those reasons have faded.

It seems now the forum has become more serious if not more intelligent, and the right people have ways to find the right stuff anyway.

I think I'm going to finally stop coming here and pull like a Wolfram.

I think I'll try and help out more in the future. I've tried helping people with their problems in the past but there are a lot and half the problems can be solved by google searching and finding a tutorial.

Plus I have a new game coming soon, and helping people on the Flash forum is great exposure, lol!

At 5/20/09 05:41 AM, Kirk-Cocaine wrote:

At 5/19/09 11:53 PM, doctormario wrote: I mean, I read a post a few hours ago, where Neo-13 got dissed by some uppity punk for helping him out. WTF?

This is another thing that annoys me. People seem to think that by posting here they are some how entitled to helpful and speedy reply. When people bump their thread every 10mins and throw tantrums because someone hasn't posted the exact code they want that works perfectly it really makes my blood boil.

I don't know - the more new a user is the more simple their problem generally is, and as such the faster they generally get a (maybe useless) reply.

There are a few exceptions, like when people have ridiculously specific things they want coding (like an entire adventure game), but generally people with simple problems don't need to bump to get simple answers.

At 5/20/09 06:46 AM, GustTheASGuy wrote:

At 5/19/09 11:53 PM, doctormario wrote: I mean, I read a post a few hours ago, where Neo-13 got dissed by some uppity punk for helping him out. WTF?

I'm pretty sure I was that one, there was a guy asking about coding and physics.
('Some' uppity punk? Psh.)

No, not that topic. It was this one.

He does want to learn, but the effort is in the wrong place, and you kids interrupting me to weep about how everyone started somewhere isn't going to help.

When people are 'bullied' by Gust, they have to realise that complaining gets them nowhere; they should just bottle it in like I did when I was new.
I'll get you one day, Gust, for correcting me and probably making me better at Actionscript in the most condescending way possible.

Answering questions helped me pick up things without having to work myself too, earlier. But those reasons have faded.

Likewise on the learning thing. But I still sometimes see something new; there are better ways of certain things, ways that I have never thought of before.
So long as I keep learning, keep seeing something new, or even make a person truly gratuitous for what I've taught them, I'll keep coming here.

I think I'm going to finally stop coming here and pull like a Wolfram.

Aww, don't do that. How am I going to exact my revenge if you leave?
But seriously, you're too good a coder to lose.

What makes me happy though is when a new helper comes along and, although they don't know too much Actionscript, they know enough to get by. And when they do post some code, they explain it clearly, and it's clear that they understand what they're saying. They make the odd mistake, but they thank you for pointing it out.
You know that, if they stay, they'll grow to be very good coders.
It's sad that we don't get many people like this, but that's how it goes.

Lol Gust. I read your exchange with Captain Physics. The guy up in Neo's grill had to be 12 years old, and suffering from severe anger management issues. :D

At 5/20/09 10:53 AM, doctormario wrote: Lol Gust. I read your exchange with Captain Physics. The guy up in Neo's grill had to be 12 years old, and suffering from severe anger management issues. :D

I'm quite sure Captain Physics was Neo. CBA to check.

At 5/20/09 10:49 AM, Doomsday-One wrote: You know that, if they stay, they'll grow to be very good coders.
It's sad that we don't get many people like this, but that's how it goes.

Not 'very'. The number of very good programmers who have grown up on the BBS is under 10 I'd say. And the forum has little to do with how good they are.

Aww, don't do that. How am I going to exact my revenge if you leave?
But seriously, you're too good a coder to lose.

Cool. But you don't need me on the forum to get revenge. I'm not sure how you intend to do it too, you'll need like a CS degree before you can start catching up to me at what I'm good at.

I haven't done anything worthwhile as a coder. I want to make a p-language so awesome that attempting to write a game engine would not automatically put me to sleep. This is basically impossible so I must devote myself as I engineer.

At 5/20/09 12:39 PM, GustTheASGuy wrote: Not 'very'. The number of very good programmers who have grown up on the BBS is under 10 I'd say. And the forum has little to do with how good they are.

Is there hope for any of us? Lol.
You're right. To be honest I could probably name those 10 right here, right now.
problem is those lot seem to all stick to the reg lounge so there doesn't seem to be able to be anyone to help except noobs like me.

At 5/20/09 12:39 PM, GustTheASGuy wrote:

At 5/20/09 10:53 AM, doctormario wrote: Lol Gust. I read your exchange with Captain Physics. The guy up in Neo's grill had to be 12 years old, and suffering from severe anger management issues. :D

I'm quite sure Captain Physics was Neo. CBA to check.

Yes. Gust is on about this thread.
doctormario thinks that Gust is on about this thread.

At 5/20/09 10:49 AM, Doomsday-One wrote: You know that, if they stay, they'll grow to be very good coders.
It's sad that we don't get many people like this, but that's how it goes.

Not 'very'. The number of very good programmers who have grown up on the BBS is under 10 I'd say. And the forum has little to do with how good they are.

Okay, granted. But knowing the language and how it works well enough to help the VAST majority of people who come here is what I was referring to when I said 'very good coder'. Not much, but if it makes people happy.

Admittedly, I'm not much better than this when it comes to coding

Aww, don't do that. How am I going to exact my revenge if you leave?
But seriously, you're too good a coder to lose.

Cool. But you don't need me on the forum to get revenge. I'm not sure how you intend to do it too, you'll need like a CS degree before you can start catching up to me at what I'm good at.

I read through some of my post history, and it seems that I have no actual reason to get revenge on you. You've never actually directed any abuse at me.
I did notice this old thread though, in which you made one of the best replies ever:
"It's not my intention to help anyone, I'm adding to discussion."

I haven't done anything worthwhile as a coder. I want to make a p-language so awesome that attempting to write a game engine would not automatically put me to sleep. This is basically impossible so I must devote myself as I engineer.

It's funny how what we tell many people here to take baby steps. In one sense, the same applies here. I haven't achieved anything worthwhile either. I made a nice preloader for a collab, so what?
But it was a start, and I can move on from there.
You're great at code, Gust, but you never use it. You spend your time posting here on the forum and playing games, instead of working on your own little brainchild.

Again, I must admit, I'm not much better (and a damn sight worse at coding). I can see how dull it is to just write line after line, and ultimately feel like what you're putting in isn't worth the effort. And then getting round to even opening up the file is a struggle. But if the others can manage it, why can't we?
Perhaps each of us should dedicate one hour a day to coding, and see if that actually gets us anywhere!

And perhaps I read you completely wrong. If so, I apologise

At 5/20/09 12:39 PM, GustTheASGuy wrote: And the forum has little to do with how good they are.

Sadly this is probably the case too. It's good to get a jump start using these forums.

I joined NG already having mild skill in flash (although looking at my old posts makes me cringe at how much of an ego I had), and most of the questions I asked were slightly above your basic "how do I make a button?". First one I asked was about doing gravity (http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/243 145)

The guy who helped seemed like he wanted to write everything for me, but I did learn a bit by modifying his code to my needs (eventually turned that into Magnetism :P probably forgot to thank him too)

Unfortunately after that question, all the subsequent ones I asked were too advanced (I mean, not extremely basic) for the average forum goer to bother to answer, so most of the answers I got were like "did you remember to put the underscore in front of root?"

Essentially, after passing the "basic knowledge of AS" line, it's near impossible to get good help from these forums, which is kinda sad.

Lately its even worse, as my questions are now usually completely unanswerable by google because they deal with either brand new features or really specific and complicated "bugs", or theoretical stuff about how blocks of c++ are implemented under the hood, which nobody seems to know (except my freaky genius programming professor, which he eventually started telling me to hold off on some questions because they'll cover it in the future (2-3 years in the future :/ ), stuff like "if I inline an empty function is there overhead?")

It's so hard to get good help once you pass some thresholds, seems like mike is the only one who can actually answer my questions good.

At 5/20/09 01:33 PM, Doomsday-One wrote: Okay, granted. But knowing the language and how it works well enough to help the VAST majority of people who come here is what I was referring to when I said 'very good coder'. Not much, but if it makes people happy.

Yeah but those people can create only mildly interesting games in the end. Like, under a thousand lines of code. Then it's up to some catch to make the game good, if they're lucky.

I read through some of my post history, and it seems that I have no actual reason to get revenge on you. You've never actually directed any abuse at me.

It can be like an ambition. :p

You're great at code, Gust, but you never use it. You spend your time posting here on the forum and playing games, instead of working on your own little brainchild.

Yeah I use it. Just not for entertainment/games. I have a brainchild but it's an intimidating mofo. Hence why I said I should pull a Wolfram.

Perhaps each of us should dedicate one hour a day to coding, and see if that actually gets us anywhere!

You can't mechanically just add more code. You need to be on a roll to do stuff. See places of the program to improve or develop, and be motivated to.

At 5/20/09 01:39 PM, Glaiel-Gamer wrote: Essentially, after passing the "basic knowledge of AS" line, it's near impossible to get good help from these forums, which is kinda sad.

Yeah.

Lately its even worse, as my questions are now usually completely unanswerable by google because they deal with either brand new features or really specific and complicated "bugs", or theoretical stuff about how blocks of c++ are implemented under the hood, which nobody seems to know (except my freaky genius programming professor, which he eventually started telling me to hold off on some questions because they'll cover it in the future (2-3 years in the future :/ ), stuff like "if I inline an empty function is there overhead?")

Compilers generally have a 'leave generated ASM' option. That'll show you everything if you can be bothered looking. An empty inlined function won't have an overhead unless your compiler is extra retarded. Anyway, why do you need to know stuff like that? You should just avoid it.
Questions like that aren't interesting too.

At 5/20/09 03:00 PM, GustTheASGuy wrote: Compilers generally have a 'leave generated ASM' option. That'll show you everything if you can be bothered looking. An empty inlined function won't have an overhead unless your compiler is extra retarded. Anyway, why do you need to know stuff like that? You should just avoid it.
Questions like that aren't interesting too.

Don't worry about why I needed to know that, I had my reasons.

inline void trace(thing){
#ifdef DEBUG
output thing to the console / file
#endif
}

if debug is not defined the function is empty

was just a simple question really but I get "don't use inline ever" as a response, rather than what I asked for. I didn't want it to do normal linking of that function if its empty

sample of what I'm talking about.

There was a thread where the guy was asking about how to do an or check (basically the answer he was looking for was ||) and someone responded:

"I don't know about Or but there's an else if. I don't think that works like an or though"

Well, I think people should be a BIT prudent before posting, I have absolutely no idea about how to use AS3, so I prefer not to even post in AS3 threads, still, if I think I have an idea, I prefer to research before saying something that isn't true, I guess there's gotta be a lot of people who got frustrated because they were told things that aren't true.

You don't know what you're talking about.

At 5/24/09 03:12 PM, Glaiel-Gamer wrote: sample of what I'm talking about.

There was a thread where the guy was asking about how to do an or check (basically the answer he was looking for was ||) and someone responded:

"I don't know about Or but there's an else if. I don't think that works like an or though"

Surely someone with that level of knowledge would have noticed that the forum is swamped with people more qualified than him to answer :P

At 5/24/09 04:31 PM, Paranoia wrote: Surely someone with that level of knowledge would have noticed that the forum is swamped with people more qualified than him to answer :P

You'd hope so at least