heaven and hell paradox.

[Tomsan]

So I was thinking about the heaven and hell concept and I just cant get my head around it.

If one assumes that god is almighty, he atleast allowd hell to exist. If he created it is not really important, the fact stays that he is oke with people being horribly tortured for eternity. the other assumption is that he is a loving god.

Now some people say that the devil has 'created' hell and tries to 'win' souls by misleading people and leading them away of the word of god. by doing this he makes sure that they will not go to heaven and so he can spent time watching them being tortured (kinda funny if you think about the concept a while).

God want people to chose him, and I can see some value in this. So indeed lets say that you need to earn your place in heaven.

now plz someone explain WHY god still allowd hell to exist? HE is punishing those that go there not the devil. the devil is inferior and god can blwo up the whole place with one snap of his fingers. So even though it is not god that leads you to hell it is god that indirectly tortures people. If he thinks (actually god cannot think, he can only know) that people do not deserve heaven he can for example seize their existence or create a lesser heaven or whatever... nearly everything is better then being burned alive then have your skin regrown so that you can burn alive again forever and ever and ever...

So how can one believe that god is love, loving, good AND almighty and at the same time believe in the concept of hell? it does not compute.

the often posed question; 'why would god send me to hell if I have been a good person in life?' is to kind imo, it should be why would god torture me for eternity if I have been a good person in life?

I seriously wonder how religious people go about this seeming dilemma, so I hope you can enlighten me.

[Ravariel]

Why do you assume "hell" is eternal torture?

[Tomsan]

At 5/16/09 08:26 AM, Ravariel wrote: Why do you assume "hell" is eternal torture?

I do not assume anything I just acknowledge people's perceptions. I dont believe in the concept of god heaven and hell at all

Jude 7; Matt. 25:46; 2 Thess. 1:9; Rev. 20:10 etc etc..

[Ericho]

I simply don't believe in Hell. In fact, I don't think I ever have. I'm a religious person, but that's the fun thing, you can just leave out the parts you don't like.

[Mar666]

God gave us chance to choose: good or bad. If choose bad then you`ll go to hell. Not because God wants to watch you beeing tortured but because you chose that. He loves you but if you choose path of evil then he can NOT let you go to heaven...he must let you go to hell...

[Tomsan]

At 5/16/09 11:48 AM, Mar666 wrote: God gave us chance to choose: good or bad. If choose bad then you`ll go to hell. Not because God wants to watch you beeing tortured but because you chose that. He loves you but if you choose path of evil then he can NOT let you go to heaven...he must let you go to hell...

typical answer, and absolutely avoiding the whole point I am making. I understand the choice, but why would it lead to such pain and suffering... its god's decision

[Brick-top]

Interesting thought. Food for brain.

Occasionally I hear people saying the devil has deceived or taken control of others.

If it's the Devils fault (and Gods for making him) why are we getting the short end of the stick?

[Eloquentlunatic42]

At 5/16/09 11:48 AM, Mar666 wrote: God gave us chance to choose: good or bad. If choose bad then you`ll go to hell. Not because God wants to watch you beeing tortured but because you chose that. He loves you but if you choose path of evil then he can NOT let you go to heaven...he must let you go to hell...

What you imply raises the question of why we have the opportunity to make this choice in the first place. If God is truly both almighty and completely benevolant, as is often suggested, could he not manage to create subjects with the moral decency to avoid Hell in all cases? So, then, I would be led to believe that, if the rest of traditional doctrine is assumed to be true, he cannot enjoy both qualities. And if this is so, it would disprove such a fundamental point in traditional doctrine to make one wonder whether the rest of it holds any weight whatsoever. Indeed, I challenge you to provide any arguement to the contrary.

[Ravariel]

At 5/16/09 08:44 AM, Tomsan wrote:

At 5/16/09 08:26 AM, Ravariel wrote: Why do you assume "hell" is eternal torture?

I do not assume anything I just acknowledge people's perceptions. I dont believe in the concept of god heaven and hell at all

Jude 7; Matt. 25:46; 2 Thess. 1:9; Rev. 20:10 etc etc..

Matthew: Mistranslated?

Revelations: Only mentions a lake of fire into which those judged shall be cast. Also calls it the "second death"... says nothing about eternal burning or torture, except for the beast and the false prophet. Actually, the "burned up forever" part references the fact that there is no resurrection from the "second death", not that the torture will last forever.

Jude 1:7 is talking about Sodom and Gommorah, and their punishment for their sins, not Hell.

Thessilonias says nothing of hell.

The real question is: why is the popular "knowledge" of hell that of eternal torture? There is nothing really in the bible to support that idea... and yet many people seem to follow the Dante's Inferno version as if it were biblical canon, when in fact those who are judged lacking are, by scripture, merely killed "for real" and not allowed into heaven. They are merely ended, not tortured for eternity.

I think what you're trying to ask is about what is called the Absolute Paradox, or; The Problem of Evil.

There have been several attempts to answer that problem, most famously by Thomas Acquinas, but none really hold up to scrutiny.

[Slick-Rob]

The actual word "Hell" is a corruption of the Hebrew word, "Sheol," which the King James Version mistakenly translated as Hell. "Sheol" is better translated as "the grave" or "realm of the dead." The closest thing you can get in the Hebrew language to Hell would be Gehenna, which refers to the place where bodies were piled and burned, thus one might interpret that as eternal suffering in the afterlife.

That was the etymological and theological argument one can find here: http://www.jacksonsnyder.com/arc/resligh t/Hell%20in%20the%20Bible%20-%20What%20D oes%20the%20Bible%20Really%20Say.htm

There are two other opinions I've heard, one from Lee Strobel's A Case For Faith (which I would reference the page number if I knew where I put it) and another viewpoint I've heard when talking to a few others about their faith.

The one I read presented in The Case For Faith was where he talked to a friend, who is an theological scholar, and Strobel asks this exact question. His friend replies that, in his view point, those in Hell are there voluntarily and their suffering is not that of physical torment, but of the separation from the creator.

Finally, the emotional need for justice. Many, rightfully so, would lose their shit if they reached the Pearly Gates after a life of faith, to find out that they had to share Paradise with those who had committed the most heinous of crimes in their lifetime. Imagine Hitler or Saddam being there when you show up. What would happen? I don't know. Personally, I try to keep an open mind.

[TheFarseer]

In the Bible it says that during the period when Lucifer turned against God and lost, he was sent to hell for all eternity. It does not state whether he created Hell for that specific purpose or not. But furthermore when he created Man, he gave us all free will. Because he loved us and wanted us to come to him willingly instead of forcefully. And he won't just send people there for the littlest infraction, Hell is only there for people who commit the gravest of sins, and aren't sorry or ask forgiveness for it. Now it has never been absolutely clear on what happens to souls when they are in Hell, but one of the common things they share is that the ultimate punishment you suffer is that you truly realize how much God loved you, and you turned away from him.

[morefngdbs]

At 5/16/09 08:17 AM, Tomsan wrote: So I was thinking about the heaven and hell concept

;;;
If you throw the whole "Christian/Jew/Muslim" Heaven/Hell concept into the rubbish bin where it belongs & go with a Ying-Yang or Positive-Negative mentality ,Heaven & Hell then can IMO be more easily grasped.

Not that I believe in a place of fire & brimstone.

For me, Hell would be a place of extreme cold, everything frozen solid. Anything else would be heaven in comparrison to that , but I'm Canadian & I have an aversion to cold . Seeing how so much of my year is uncomfortably cold.

[poxpower]

But you do realize, people, that the catholic church has been preaching the hell thing for centuries?
It only stopped VERY recently.

My parents were still being taught that shit barely 40 years ago. It lasted FOR CENTURIES. All the religious higher-ups never seemed to care.

[Leeloo-Minai]

At 5/17/09 09:14 AM, morefngdbs wrote:

At 5/16/09 08:17 AM, Tomsan wrote: So I was thinking about the heaven and hell concept

;;;
If you throw the whole "Christian/Jew/Muslim" Heaven/Hell concept into the rubbish bin where it belongs & go with a Ying-Yang or Positive-Negative mentality ,Heaven & Hell then can IMO be more easily grasped.

An oft overlooked angle, IMO.

Not that I believe in a place of fire & brimstone.

Ever been to Somalia or the Sahel? Those places suck at least as bad, if not worse. They don't even speak English.

For me, Hell would be a place of extreme cold, everything frozen solid. Anything else would be heaven in comparrison to that , but I'm Canadian & I have an aversion to cold . Seeing how so much of my year is uncomfortably cold.

To me, heaven and hell are the adjectives describing the reality created around, and by, us as beings capable of [ir]rational thought. A curse and a blessing, free will provides the foundations for both heaven and hell, which have the potential to fruit inside us as balanced or as lopsided as we each decide. As a state of mind, our presence in our own personal heavens and hells helps forge the perceptions of others', leaving us with either a hopeful, jaded, or (most likely) a delightful combination of both.

The goal of life could be any number of things, and who's to sure with any certainty what works for one will satisfy another? Knowledge and understanding of the two extreme states of being helps ease the rigors and stresses of life, where even miserable folk partake in minor comfort when that misery is shared.

Is it wise to wish ill upon others? If yes, then it is wise for others to wish ill upon you..

As far as burning in hell for eternity goes, only the most hardheaded and callous could possibly want to burn forever. It's like wanting to lie in a tanning bed for an hour because you want it ALL, NOW.

Yeah, you can, but it doesn't make the owner of the place null and void because you fucked up and hurt yourself.

[SeaBoundRhino]

Hell is not definitely a physical place. 'The fire of hell' could merely mean your own evils leading to punishment in this life rather than the next.

[scotty117]

I never realy thought about it at all until now. What I beileve is this. God and his Angels, and The Devil and his Imps had a War. That lead to the conclution that they were both equaly powered. That is why I beileve God did not destroy Hell. Also, I beileve Both places are real. I beileve that if you make the chose, to be Good or Bad, you can't choose where to go. By declairing a deal, because of the war, if you were bad you go to you know were (note, I know I said the word before, but realy don't feel comfurtably using the word) And if you were good, you go to Heaven. And yes I am Catholic.

[Tomsan]

so most replies are a description of their interpretation of hell. whether or not it has been written in the bible clearly is not of great importance. The whole hell concept exists and is feared by many, with that I hope all will agree.

but when one does believe in a torture place, one cannot really defend the assumption of an almighty all loving god.

[Tomsan]

for the ones who are interested (I didnt check for context)

short summary of bible passages on eternal life and hell

[SteveGuzzi]

At 5/17/09 04:08 PM, Tomsan wrote: but when one does believe in a torture place, one cannot really defend the assumption of an almighty all loving god.

That's like saying your father must not actually love you or want the best for you if he

- shows you what you should do, yet
- still allows you to do exactly the opposite;
- punishes you for going wrong, and then
- forgives you for the mistakes you've made.

...

I dunno. Sounds pretty loving and fatherly to me.

[poxpower]

At 5/17/09 04:29 PM, StephanosGnomon wrote:

That's like saying your father must not actually love you or want the best for you if he

How about this: he drops you in the middle of a dark forest randomly and sees if you get out alive! Then he buys you a toy! How's that sound?
Sounds pretty much like life before electricity. What a great dad, popping people into shitty diseased existences to teach them "lessons".

Or better yet, he does this, then DEMANDS that you not break his completely random rules that affect him in no way, shape or form, or he PUNISHES YOU???
But he's so nice that he'll forgive me after? Wow, that's supposed to be impressive to me?

Where's the part where he asks ME for MY forgiveness? For all those kids with cancer he killed to "teach them a lesson"?? For all the torture he let happen.
Why does he do that? To punish the torturer later on and then forgive him?

It's all insane. The world only makes sense in the light of a God who truly doesn't give a shit what happens to humans during their lifetime.

[SteveGuzzi]

At 5/17/09 06:22 PM, poxpower wrote: How about this: he drops you in the middle of a dark forest randomly and sees if you get out alive! Then he buys you a toy! How's that sound?

Sounds pretty much like life before electricity. What a great dad, popping people into shitty diseased existences to teach them "lessons".

It's almost like you're suggesting that facing repeated challenges is not conducive to personal or community growth. As if a muscle unexercised is just as good and effective as a muscle solid from training. As if an idea uncontested is equally as powerful or provocative as an idea debated for millennia.

Or better yet, he does this, then DEMANDS that you not break his completely random rules that affect him in no way, shape or form, or he PUNISHES YOU???

What's "completely random" about them and in what sense is he not affected?

But he's so nice that he'll forgive me after? Wow, that's supposed to be impressive to me?

Where's the part where he asks ME for MY forgiveness? For all those kids with cancer he killed to "teach them a lesson"?? For all the torture he let happen.

Cancer is God killing people? Hwaa?

And what does your forgiveness have to do with the lives of those kids anyway? What... so like, you're doing absolutely everything you can to save the children and you feel resentful that God isn't also? After all, the only reason you might be justified in your indignation would be if you were already doing everything in your own power to ease their suffering. But if you aren't involved in that at all then what makes your forgiveness even worth anything? What's the purpose of blaming God for something you're equally as guilty of?

Why does he do that? To punish the torturer later on and then forgive him?

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction and you reap what you sow.

Making mistakes is a natural part of the learning process. I recall you saying at some point that there's all sorts of things you feel sorry for having done in the past, and you still feel bad about them even though you know they happened a long time ago and you think it's silly that you still feel that way even though you do anyhow. Does that apply to wrongs you've committed against others that they forgave you for, or only to the wrongs that went unforgiven or unresolved or that no one even knew about but you? Because your own conscience is a clue in all this. What forgiveness does is lift the burden of mistakes and misdeeds, it takes the weight off the scales completely as opposed to placing "what's owed" from one tray to the other, back and forth, so on and so on.

Without forgiveness it's a doomed cycle of revenge upon revenge and people becoming increasingly colder and farther apart from one another. It's important not only that we forgive others, but also that we ask for and accept forgiveness for our own bad actions. You can intellectualize things all you want but you'll never be working at your fullest capacity if you're impeded by all sorts of psychological and emotional hang-ups about what you've done in the past or what others have done to you. In a manner of speaking "God's forgiveness" is the application of this principle both in its broadest and also most personal scope. Again, your own conscience is a clue in all this.

It's all insane. The world only makes sense in the light of a God who truly doesn't give a shit what happens to humans during their lifetime.

Not really. All things considered, a God interested in growth and development seems much more likely. Organisms adapt when their survival is threatened. I imagine it's pretty hard to grow and adapt when there's absolutely nothing internal or external to yourself compelling you to do so.

[poxpower]

At 5/17/09 09:04 PM, StephanosGnomon wrote:

It's almost like you're suggesting that facing repeated challenges is not conducive to personal or community growth.

There's a time where something stops being a challenge and becomes a torture.
Btw, who the fuck is he to decide who should be challenged and in what way? Are we just his little puppets? Maybe I should try to be more like God and I could kidnap random people and put them in the Thunderdome to teach them lessons.

In the USA it's called "cruel and unusual punishments" but in Heaven it's apparently called "challenging people so they grow".

What's "completely random" about them and in what sense is he not affected?

Why would the supreme creator of the universe give a shit if I beat my kids or I'm mean to my dog?
And those are just non-crazy rules. Why does he care if I'm gay? Or if I eat meat on Friday? Or if I don't pray to him all the time? Does my non-confessing of sins somehow take away from his power?

Making mistakes is a natural part of the learning process.

My point is that God punishes people who have done nothing but clearly never answers for it.
God loves to punish children with terminal diseases, starvation, tsunamis etc.

I have no clue how you fit this into the "God uses life to teach lessons" plan of action.

[Ericho]

At 5/17/09 09:38 PM, poxpower wrote: Why would the supreme creator of the universe give a shit if I beat my kids or I'm mean to my dog?

Um, because that's wrong. Are you saying it's okay to beat your kids? And I thought atheists were so moral.

[Tomsan]

At 5/17/09 04:29 PM, StephanosGnomon wrote:

At 5/17/09 04:08 PM, Tomsan wrote: but when one does believe in a torture place, one cannot really defend the assumption of an almighty all loving god.

That's like saying your father must not actually love you or want the best for you if he

- shows you what you should do, yet

He doesnt show me anything

- still allows you to do exactly the opposite;

important! god ALLOWS me, my father would not allow me to commit suicide, kill, torture or do anything far outside of the moral standard. (if he could prevent it, it would be very un-ethical)

- punishes you for going wrong, and then
- forgives you for the mistakes you've made.

like pox implied their are quite different gradations of punishment. If my father would punish me by kicking me in the head it would be a very immoral thing to do, and I would not see this as a show of love.. sending one to hell is not forgiving, so in your analogy it would mean my father would NOT forgive me and also keeps me in his basement performing all kinds of sick things on me.

strange analogy example. Pox already gave a good response.

[Xemras]

At 5/18/09 10:52 AM, Ericho wrote:

At 5/17/09 09:38 PM, poxpower wrote: Why would the supreme creator of the universe give a shit if I beat my kids or I'm mean to my dog?

Um, because that's wrong. Are you saying it's okay to beat your kids? And I thought atheists were so moral.

So it's not okay for pox to abuse his kids and dog but it's perfectly acceptable to you for a god to torture over 99% of his creation for all eternity?

And don't bother giving me that "free-will" crap either.

[poxpower]

At 5/19/09 01:02 AM, Xemras wrote:

And don't bother giving me that "free-will" crap either.

Yeah, apparently he thinks free will means "you can do whatever you want under the threat of extreme punishment". What a sick way of thinking. Honestly.

[JackPhantasm]

At 5/17/09 06:22 PM, poxpower wrote:
It's all insane. The world only makes sense in the light of a God who truly doesn't give a shit what happens to humans during their lifetime.

Someone doesn't understand the concept of free will. I mean, your argument was nice, if you're doing stand-up comedy.

[JanusGrayden]

Here's something that I've never seen answered.

Now, I don't have the arrogance to claim that it is unanswerable or that I'm the first to ask it, but it does throw some things out of whack.

If 1 Timothy 2:4 is to be believed, and I'm under the assumption that anyone attempting to reconcile this does, God desires all men to be saved and, further, to come to the full knowledge of the truth.

Even in the full context of Timothy, this is declared to be a hard fact. Nothing before or after would lead someone to believe it is a metaphor or an allegory.

Secondly, I understand that a lot of people like to play fast and loose with the Old Testament. There's a lot of horrifying stuff in there and, if I had to justify believing that a loving God wrote the Bible, I would, too. I'll even play that game.

What I gather from the Christian view is that the Old Testament serves to frame God in His attributes. I would go so far as to say that choosing a verse that has a very clear, defined meaning is fair game, even to the fastest, loosest acceptance of the Old Testament. Heck, the whole chapter is full of stuff that the modern Christian sensibility can get behind, King James and everything, since I know there are people out there who only accept the King's English:

Malachi 3

1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

2But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

3And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

4Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

5And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

6For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

7Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

8Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

9Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

10Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

11And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

12And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.

13Your words have been stout against me, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, What have we spoken so much against thee?

14Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?

15And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.

16Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.

17And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

18Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

If one didn't know better, it certainly would look like a pretty neat description of the coming of Jesus, God judging the evil and glorifying the good, blessing the chosen people, and pretty much all that good stuff Christians agree on. I would be shocked if aany Christian had any particular complaints about the entirety of that chapter.

If you accept that chapter, then you accept what is written, again, very clearly. In explicit language, Malachi 3:6 says that "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." Even the following modification only serves to strengthen that statement. God does not change and, because God never EVER changes, the sons of Jacob, as God's chosen people, can rest assured that they won't be consumed.

That statement, according to the Bible, is a fact concerning God's nature.

If you're still bearing with me, then we have established two things that are clearly written in the Bible, in passages that any Christian can agree on, in language that is obviously not meant to be taken allegorically or metaphorically:

1. God desires literally all men to be saved AND to come to the full knowledge of the truth.
2. God NEVER changes.

The clear, absolute language in both of these verses directly follows in a third statement:

3. God has ALWAYS wanted ALL men to be saved AND to come to the full knowledge of the truth.

This is not a trilemma in the vein of the absurd "lord, liar, or lunatic" oversimplification. These are two verses that describe absolute situations that explicitly state the nature and the desire of God.

The low-hanging fruit, of course, is that not all men are saved. The vast majority of people who have ever lived are not and will not be saved. Even of the minuscule percentage of people who are and ever will be saved, fewer still will come to the full knowledge of the truth.

This alone is enough to demonstrate that God does not get what He desires. God has already failed miserably. It's not even a mitigated success. There is simply no getting around the fact that God desired all men to be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth before He made them and yet, nearly every single man, woman, and especially child, wasn't, isn't, and won't be saved. And Jesus had the balls to say that children were precious to him. The nerve.

To cap off this huge diatribe (which has become mandatory due to the bullshit semantics apologetics use, I apologize to everyone else), I would like to point out the higher up, more rotten and putrid fruit on the tree.

God willingly prevented people from being saved. In Mark 4, Jesus said that He speaks in parables. Okay, fair enough, dude likes to tell a story, so what? The problem here is Mark 4:12, which states:

"That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

WOAH, WHAT?!! God, who NEVER changes and desires ALL men to be saved and come to the FULL knowledge of the truth WILLFULLY prevented more than one person, at the very least, from being saved. Pharisees or not, they are still human beings and qualify under the blanket statement of 1 Timothy 2:4.

Explanation?

[JackPhantasm]

The concept of all power is merely an extension of being the creating force.

You're all powerful because you created everything, not because you can control it.

[morefngdbs]

At 5/19/09 02:50 AM, JackPhantasm wrote: The concept of all power is merely an extension of being the creating force.

You're all powerful because you created everything, not because you can control it.

Has anyone else ever thought about god in this way. God or an omniputent power may have effected this reality with nothing more than neutrons, electrons & protons, we know these are what everything is made up of.
We are discovering the things that make these up , the string theory is looking at the possibility of some of these particles actually being able to move through different dimensions.

God, may just simply be in a completely different dimension from those dimesions we the living can preceive .