Super Smash Bros. Brawl - "others"

[The-Great-One]

When it comes to Super Smash Bros. Brawl it is one of my favorite games and is certainly a hit on the Wii. There are many aspects to this game which makes it unique, and the character list is great. With new characters like Wario, Meta Knight, King Dedede, Sonic, Snake, Pit, and Lucario it's easy to see why this game is fun.

When characters were released we were all so excited on who would make the list. First off yes I am attacking the following characters because they are clone characters, I will however not attack Luigi, for although he is a clone of Mario you just can't have this game without him. I will also not attack Falco, for he is a clone of Fox, but as Luigi he is a nice addition, my only complaint about Falco is his final smash should've been different from Fox's.

The characters I want to complain about are Ganondorf, Wolf, and Toon Link.

Ganondorf is a slower copy of Captain Falcon and nothing was changed with him at all, except the addition of a final smash which is his only original move.

Wolf is a slower copy of Fox, although his gun causes more damage and doesn't shoot as far, but that's no excuse, plus his final smash is the same as Fox's and Falco's.

Toon Link is the worst of them all. He's just Young Link in toon form, that's all.

Nintendo said they wouldn't have clone characters yet that is what we were given. I don't take that "we were low on time" bullshit. Why? Because game makers should spend every waking hour into a game.

You made Little Mac, Knuckle Joe, and Gray Fox as Assist Trophies, why not have had them as actual characters to play as? Also why not include Knuckles from Sonic the Hedgehog?

Discuss, Agree, Troll, or Bitch Like A Fanboy.

[Blaze-Heatnix]

At 4/30/09 10:14 PM, The-Great-One wrote: Nintendo said they wouldn't have clone characters yet that is what we were given. I don't take that "we were low on time" bullshit. Why? Because game makers should spend every waking hour into a game.

They have two options:

1. Speed up like hell and produce a shitty fighting game.

2. Take their time, and when the bridge comes, they say "fuck it" and don't go with the promises they made before.

That's with every VG company, not just Nintendo.

You made Little Mac, Knuckle Joe, and Gray Fox as Assist Trophies, why not have had them as actual characters to play as? Also why not include Knuckles from Sonic the Hedgehog?

Gray Fox was a trophy simply because they could only have two playable third-party characters, and certainly not from the same series. Also Shadow has a shitload more fans.

Clone characters are better suited to skins, and the main appeal of them is the novelty of playing the actual characters and not a paintover of another one. It's a shitty concept, but effective.

[The-Great-One]

At 4/30/09 10:24 PM, Blaze-Heatnix wrote: 2. Take their time, and when the bridge comes, they say "fuck it" and don't go with the promises they made before.

That's not good enough. You know how many times The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time was put on delay? I don't see why Nintendo could've taken extra time to actually add these other characters.

Clone characters are better suited to skins, and the main appeal of them is the novelty of playing the actual characters and not a paintover of another one. It's a shitty concept, but effective.

It's a shitty concept, and I can agree and accept the novelty for Ganondorf, still believe it was a waste of time. However Wolf and Toon Link were both a complete waste of time, why couldn't that time have been adjusted to creating Little Mac and Knuckle Joe as playable characters?

[Blaze-Heatnix]

At 4/30/09 11:01 PM, The-Great-One wrote: That's not good enough. You know how many times The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time was put on delay? I don't see why Nintendo could've taken extra time to actually add these other characters.

Because when you promise a date, unless it is not fully playable yet, you have to release it. Gaming is a lot bigger than what it was 10 years ago, if that's hard to believe.

It's a shitty concept, and I can agree and accept the novelty for Ganondorf, still believe it was a waste of time. However Wolf and Toon Link were both a complete waste of time, why couldn't that time have been adjusted to creating Little Mac and Knuckle Joe as playable characters?

Little Mac was just something for the hardcore fans....Punch Out! was just a classic NES game and they threw him in for fun. Besides, what would he have for moves other than punches and kicks? Knuckle Joe....well he was just a common Kirby enemy, adding him as a character would be retarded.

[verycoolguy]

About Wolf, okay, he has a similar B move, but, who doesn't? It's a projectile that goes straight, like Luigi's fireballs. Other than the four specials and final smash, Wolf is completely different.

Also, Brawl sucks. Melee will always be fun to play and watch.

[Gustavos]

At 4/30/09 10:14 PM, The-Great-One wrote: Nintendo said they wouldn't have clone characters yet that is what we were given.

You know, it's funny. They never actually did say that. They knew that the Americans don't like clone characters, but why cater to them. If we had more than five clones than we can be pissed, but Luigi and Falco have unique movesets now. And play almost oppositely from their originals.

I don't take that "we were low on time" bullshit. Why? Because game makers should spend every waking hour into a game.

They were low on space. In a flash, one two minute song can take up the same amount of space as three minutes of animation, and it's not much different in a game. We will never be completely happy with the roster or songs, and the reason is, because they don't have every character and song ever made. We will never be happy unless they give us everything.

You made Little Mac, Knuckle Joe, and Gray Fox as Assist Trophies, why not have had them as actual characters to play as? Also why not include Knuckles from Sonic the Hedgehog?

All four of these would be kickass additions though.

[The-Great-One]

At 4/30/09 11:13 PM, Blaze-Heatnix wrote: Little Mac was just something for the hardcore fans....Punch Out! was just a classic NES game and they threw him in for fun. Besides, what would he have for moves other than punches and kicks?

Oh I'm sorry, let's just have Ice Climbers for those hardcore Ice Climbers fans and Ness for those hardcore Earthbound fans then? No Little Mac though?

Knuckle Joe....well he was just a common Kirby enemy, adding him as a character would be retarded.

Very well then if you could swap out a character for another, then who would you put in since both of my suggestions are pointless.

[JingoJoe14]

At 4/30/09 10:14 PM, The-Great-One wrote: Ganondorf is a slower copy of Captain Falcon and nothing was changed with him at all, except the addition of a final smash which is his only original move.

What about his Side-B?

Wolf is a slower copy of Fox, although his gun causes more damage and doesn't shoot as far, but that's no excuse, plus his final smash is the same as Fox's and Falco's.

...What about his Side-B?

Toon Link is the worst of them all. He's just Young Link in toon form, that's all.

Technically Young Link isn't in Brawl, so Toon Link isn't a clone? If anything, he's just Young Link with a graphics update (like Link went to Twilight Princess Link). It doesn't really matter though, Toon Link is vasrly different from Link. Actually, all of the clone characters are vastly different from each other. You play the game casually, so you're less likely to notice (or care about) the little differences that make these characters unique like someone who plays the game competitive does.

For example, Fox can actually combo (something rare in Brawl) Down-Aerial in to Up-Tilt or Up-Smash if he trips his opponent. Wolf doesn't even come close to doing that. Fox can also stall himself in the air with his Down-B, while Wolf's Down-B has invincibility frames instead.

Ganondorf's game revolves around Tech-Chasing (that is, predicting your opponents reaction) Side-B's and/or Auto canceling Dair's for the kill. Theoretically, if Ganondorf lands one Side B on his opponent and then correctly guesses his reaction, he can land another Side-B and then another and another and so on. Captain Falcon's Side-B is completely different so his "metagame" is different as well.

As for Toon Link and Link (you said Young Link in your post, but he's not in Brawl so...), they're very different as well.Both of their games involve utilizing bombs, boomerangs, arrows, and aerials, but Toon Link's slower fast fall, better recovery, stronger killing moves, and faster speed makes him superior in almost every category. Toon Link's sheer superiority differentiates the two enough for anyone to see.

Obviously, all of what I said is a complete understatement, and much more than just a few moves are used in an actual match. However, these differences alone make it plain to see that, although their moves are aesthetically similar, the properties of the moves set them apart from each other.

[Panzer-Wolf]

At 5/1/09 01:05 AM, JingoJoe14 wrote: You play the game casually, so you're less likely to notice (or care about) the little differences that make these characters unique like someone who plays the game competitive does.

What? People play this game competitively? I could understand Melee, but Brawl?

This is very funny.

[VenomKing666]

At 4/30/09 10:14 PM, The-Great-One wrote:

When characters were released we were all so excited on who would make the list. First off yes I am attacking the following characters because they are clone characters, I will however not attack Luigi, for although he is a clone of Mario you just can't have this game without him. I will also not attack Falco, for he is a clone of Fox, but as Luigi he is a nice addition, my only complaint about Falco is his final smash should've been different from Fox's.

The characters I want to complain about are Ganondorf, Wolf, and Toon Link.

Ganondorf is a slower copy of Captain Falcon and nothing was changed with him at all, except the addition of a final smash which is his only original move.

Ganondorf got almost completely changed since Melee, his move feels different than captain falcon's. B+forward is now different, most of his normal attacks, I am somehow sah he isnt unique but I like him too much this way too.

Wolf is a slower copy of Fox, although his gun causes more damage and doesn't shoot as far, but that's no excuse, plus his final smash is the same as Fox's and Falco's.

The final smash thing sure is pushing it, but as far as I am concerned he s totally less of a clone than falco, if anything Falco should be removed. But wait, why would you want to REMOVE stuff froma videogame anyway ?

Toon Link is the worst of them all. He's just Young Link in toon form, that's all.

Nintendo said they wouldn't have clone characters

THey NEVER fucking said that, it was never confirmed to be true, it was just a shitty rumor.

yet that is what we were given. I don't take that "we were low on time" bullshit. Why? Because game makers should spend every waking hour into a game.

Why make a great game when you can make a good game ? It's going to sell as much. Especially if it's smash bros brawl.

You made Little Mac, Knuckle Joe, and Gray Fox as Assist Trophies, why not have had them as actual characters to play as? Also why not include Knuckles from Sonic the Hedgehog?

Also that Saki guy would have been an awesome character, also it needed Ridley and Dark Samus.

[JingoJoe14]

At 5/1/09 01:20 AM, Panzer-Wolf wrote:

At 5/1/09 01:05 AM, JingoJoe14 wrote: You play the game casually, so you're less likely to notice (or care about) the little differences that make these characters unique like someone who plays the game competitive does.

What? People play this game competitively? I could understand Melee, but Brawl?

This is very funny.

Yeah it kinda is.

[xscoot]

Although Toon Link is a clone of Young Link, Young Link is not in Brawl, so it's acceptable. More of a replacement than a clone.

I know he'd be a clone character, but I'd like to see Raiden as a playable character. He'd be a faster but weaker version of Snake.

I can't wait to see his final smash.

[Blaze-Heatnix]

At 5/1/09 12:32 AM, The-Great-One wrote: Oh I'm sorry, let's just have Ice Climbers for those hardcore Ice Climbers fans and Ness for those hardcore Earthbound fans then? No Little Mac though?

Ice Climbers have probably moves due to their teamwork concept and Earthbound is an RPG so it's easy. Little Mac has normal boxing moves. He would be boring.

Very well then if you could swap out a character for another, then who would you put in since both of my suggestions are pointless.

I don't want to swipe out characters, THEY ARE FINE AS IS AND THEY COULDN'T DO BETTER.

[KeithHybrid]

At 4/30/09 10:14 PM, The-Great-One wrote: Nintendo said they wouldn't have clone characters yet that is what we were given.

I want an exact quote from Nintendo. Otherwise, stfu and gtfo.

[firehawk1220]

Yet, no complaints on Kirby and Jigglypuff? They both piss me off, along with Ike.

should have kept Roy, god damn it! Oh, and I like Toon Link, so shut up about him! >:C

[Gustavos]

At 5/1/09 05:27 PM, firehawk1220 wrote: Yet, no complaints on Kirby and Jigglypuff? They both piss me off, along with Ike.

Kirby is awesome in every sense of the word you motherFUCKER.

[RazorHawk]

At 4/30/09 11:20 PM, verycoolguy wrote: Also, Brawl sucks. Melee will always be fun to play and watch.

Quite true. I honestly thought for sure Brawl was going to be possibly the one game on the Wii that I'll actually play longer than just a handful of hours only to dump it later.

Melee was faster and more furious, while Brawl just felt slow and sluggish in comparison. Shame, really.

[ZJ]

At 5/1/09 11:53 PM, RazorHawk wrote:

Melee was faster and more furious, while Brawl just felt slow and sluggish in comparison. Shame, really.

But Brawl was more epic in size and scope. Doesn't that seem like a fair trade?

[Jercurpac]

It was either add more characters with original move sets or spend that time tacking on an average-at-best story mode. If it's any consolation the man who approve that move is now dieing of cancer. Cancer of the scrotum.

[Gustavos]

At 5/1/09 11:53 PM, RazorHawk wrote:

Melee was faster and more furious, while Brawl just felt slow and sluggish in comparison. Shame, really.

They made Brawl slower paced so that it's not about how fast you press buttons and how many cheap combos you can pull, but rather about strategy and quick (but not as quick) thinking. Also, no character is specifically better than most others. Except for Ike.

[Blaze-Heatnix]

At 5/2/09 12:23 AM, Jercurpac wrote: It was either add more characters with original move sets or spend that time tacking on an average-at-best story mode.

At least it HAS a story mode. Some people have no friends so they play single-player, and Brawl's story mode is the best single player experience you'll ever see in a fighting game and I dare you to prove me wrong.

[Jercurpac]

At 5/2/09 12:30 AM, Blaze-Heatnix wrote:

At 5/2/09 12:23 AM, Jercurpac wrote: It was either add more characters with original move sets or spend that time tacking on an average-at-best story mode.

At least it HAS a story mode. Some people have no friends so they play single-player, and Brawl's story mode is the best single player experience you'll ever see in a fighting game and I dare you to prove me wrong.

Do you want me to say something that will completely change your perspective on Brawl's story mode? I doubt I have that ability, but truth be told I personally didn't think it was that great. It's not terrible as an extra in Smash Bros., but I couldn't help but think that if it was a game on its own a lot of people would be pretty pissed off about it. I played dozens of hours just against the AI in the original Smash Bros and I played even more in Melee with it's modes were just giving slight context to those same fights against the AI (even though it admittedly had a few stages that spawned Brawl's story mode) and I haven't even completed Brawl's story mode. When I'm alone and my choice is Subspace Emissary or online play the former loses almost every time.

This is from a guy who used to write intricate storylines for the original Smash Bros where certain characters would be good and others evil and then I'd play them out in-game. I'd like nothing more for Smash Bros to have a good story mode. Subspace Emissary is just OK and I'd hardly call OK the best single player experience EVAR in a fighting game. It doesn't take away from the game as a whole, but I doubt in ten years it's going to be a beloved piece of Nintendo history.

[verycoolguy]

At 5/2/09 12:27 AM, Gustavos wrote: They made Brawl slower paced so that it's not about how fast you press buttons and how many cheap combos you can pull, but rather about strategy and quick (but not as quick) thinking. Also, no character is specifically better than most others. Except for Ike.

HAHAHA, OH WOW!

I have no idea where to start, so let me just say: Ike is mediocre. Way too damn slow. Only thing going for him is his range, decent strength, and his jab, but it's not good enough. There are many characters that are better than more than half the roster, including Diddy Kong, Falco, Snake, Mr. Game and Watch, Marth, and the best of all, META-KNIGHT. This guy OWNS everybody in the roster, in any stage.

About Melee's 'cheap' combos, um... oh wow, damn. Where do I start?...
Okay, Melee's combos are NOT cheap. Every character in the game except for Bowser can combo. Yes, you press alot of buttons quickly, but, you HAVE to know what buttons, and you NEED to time the LCanceling correctly so the combos can work. I don't know why anyone would get mad at their opponent for that, and call them 'cheap'.

Brawl's strategies are... Spacing, which is putting your distance between you and your opponent at the length of your attacks.
The other strategy, is, CAMPING. Throwing as much shit at your opponent as you can. Examples are Snake controlling the stage with his explosives, Falco short hopping and shooting two lasers each jump very rapidly, and Diddy controlling the stage with bananas. Trying to get passed camping is extremely boring and irritating.
Also, one last thing I'd like to say: Brawl is the game with the cheap combos. King Dedede can effectively spam downthrow without the opponent escaping, to more than half the roster, at any percent. If Falco grabs someone at low percent, he can do the same thing, and he can pull a meteor smash once he gets to the end of the stage. The opponent will most likely die. Meta-Knight cancels almost everyone else' moves with his instant long range sword, giving 75% of the cast a hopeless chance of beating this guy. The worst part about Brawl's lame strategies is...THEY'RE ALL FRICKIN EASY TO DO! The timing to do these chain throws is easy to master in 2 seconds.

In Melee, a way you can differentiate the good player from the noobs is if they can combo, space, and LCancel very well. In Brawl, to get to the top, you need to camp, or chaingrab, or use Meta-Knight.

Brawl is very horrible balanced. It's alot worse than Melee's balance.

[Underload]

I jump around everywhere in this post. I can't structure my words as well as I see them in my head.

Neither Melee nor Brawl had character balance in mind when they were made. Neither had competitive play in the forefront. Neither was supposed to appeal to 1v1 play, it was made to appeal to 4 person FFAs with items and every stage being legit.

Melee took over a year to get any kind of scene going. When East Coast and West Coast were developing a metagame, WC was using items for a while. When it developed, it was slow since people were inexperienced with this kind of engine. They were familiar with Soul Calibur, Street Fighter, etc. After another two years things began to pick up, tiers were becoming painfully clear, top players and areas were starting to show, and the metagame peaked when it was picked up by MLG. Melee had a 7 year lifespan because of its slow growth in popularity over the years. A cult classic in the fighting community.

Brawl developed a scene within a month of its release, partially because of all the old Melee players dedicating themselves to the new game. East Coast and West Coast developed side by side. While the mechanics in Brawl were considered more floaty, it was still very similar to Melee, seeing as both came from HAL and Nintendo. It's only been about a year and two months into Brawl's metagame, and it's grown so rapidly it's not even funny. There's now two tier lists in place, top players are obvious, any tournament below 16 attendees is a bust, there's a 700+ planned attendee tournament going in in Northern California this July (Melee and Brawl), Smash took off because of Brawl's popularity growth. And although people don't want to admit it, Wifi is one of the most important parts of the game. It, by itself, has brought many new competitive players to the game, amazing or not (Ally is an example of a Wifi warrior, I'm an example of a wifi scrub). Brawl's more popular after a year then Melee was in its 7 years.

Q: "But Underload, Brawl is just spacing and camping and projectile spam!"
A: Wrong. Mew2King, the undisputed best Brawl player, and arguably the best Melee player in his prime, doesn't stay back and let the opponent make the first move. He plays Brawl with a fast pace, and its a breath of fresh air. Same with NinjaLink, Boss, Reflex, Fiction, and many other top level players. You're thinking of the low-level players who think that camping's the best. Althought a campy playstyle can get you to a certain point, there's a cutoff point where people just figure you out and fuck you up. Fast-paced, frantic playing like the pros mentioned above yield no real boundaries because there's so many more ways to get better. It's all about playstyle. If you think camping is what Brawl's about, then you're a camper. Follow people off the stage for once and you'll see that Brawl's pretty fun.

Q: Tierz?!
A: Ya. Every successful fighting game has had tiers. Top tiers have been more popular in competitive play, but, in history, low tiers rise up from the bottom and fuck some Metaknights and Snakes up (see: Boss and NinjaLink). Tiers are just a byproduct of a popular game.

That's all I got >.>

[WilliWowza]

Getting angry over the mechanics of a party game.

Wow guys.

[verycoolguy]

At 5/2/09 11:52 AM, Underload wrote:

I jump around everywhere in this post. I can't structure my words as well as I see them in my head.

Q: "But Underload, Brawl is just spacing and camping and projectile spam!"
A: Wrong. Mew2King, the undisputed best Brawl player, and arguably the best Melee player in his prime, doesn't stay back and let the opponent make the first move. He plays Brawl with a fast pace, and its a breath of fresh air.

He spaces and waits patiently when he plays against a camping Snake or any other camper. And he is using Meta-Knight, who goes through all types of camping.

Same with NinjaLink, Boss, Reflex, Fiction, and many other top level players.

Fiction air camps with Wario a lot. Have you ever seen DSF vs NinjaLink? Snake/King Dedede vs ROB. It was a mighty campfest. Reflex and Boss however are geniuses with their move strings.

You're thinking of the low-level players who think that camping's the best. Althought a campy playstyle can get you to a certain point, there's a cutoff point where people just figure you out and fuck you up.

Not if you camp correctly. Like Falco SHDLing correctly. That shuts down alot of approach options for many characters. AfroThundah's Snake has incredible camping, and he combos with the explosives. Snake's best strategy against King Dedede, a chaingrabber, is to camp hardcore, or else he will get owned by easy chaingrabs.

Fast-paced, frantic playing like the pros mentioned above yield no real boundaries because there's so many more ways to get better.

Playing Fox or Sheik doesn't guarantee unlimited potential, unless you're talking about Meta-Knight.
Also, there is fast-paced camping.

It's all about playstyle. If you think camping is what Brawl's about, then you're a camper. Follow people off the stage for once and you'll see that Brawl's pretty fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4jYJ-Yjf 3w&feature=channel_page

[verycoolguy]

At 5/2/09 12:02 PM, WilliWowza wrote: Getting angry over the mechanics of a party game.

Wow guys.

Who's getting angry?

[MetallixTheKnight]

At 5/2/09 12:02 PM, WilliWowza wrote: Getting angry over the mechanics of a party game.

Wow guys.

Hardcore fag.

As for the OP, I agree with Gannondorf, but being a faster clone is exactly why Toon Link is awesome! What with adult Link being utter shit...

I have no opinion on Wolf.

[burrito15]

At 5/1/09 05:27 PM, firehawk1220 wrote: Yet, no complaints on Kirby and Jigglypuff? They both piss me off, along with Ike.

Jigglypuff kicks ass! She's a WIN-WIN character.

If you win you win.
If you lose you win.

If you win with Jigglypuff, you kick serious ass!

If you lose with Jigglypuff, "HEY! You were Jigglypuff."

:Game & Watch all the way! :D

[Nick-The-Holy-Potato]

HAHAHA! Burrito15, best thing ever.

Also, I actually never camp in brawl. Problly because I play good ol' Captain Falcon though.