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At 4/16/09 05:45 PM, Ravariel wrote:

At 4/16/09 05:10 PM, JoS wrote: It depends on where you set the bar. Additionally, gym starts at what like grade 1? If we start earlier focusing on fitness there will be less need for remidal work later on.

That is the problem... where DO you set the bar? And how do you determine if the bar's been crossed? Does a kid have to make 5/10 free throws to pass "baskteball"? Does he have to run a mile in 8 minutes? Or should we instead look at progress? And then how do we measure that?

Take basic evaluations of physical fitness and compare students to the scientifically established percentile scores. Make a pass say 40th percentile score or something like that.

Use standard evaluations like say 100 meter sprint or 1 mile run or beep-test, push up scores, sit up tests, flexibility (ie toe reach), vertical jumps, standing long-jump etc etc etc. Do not make them skill based, make these standards things that are actual tests of physical fitness.

At 4/16/09 05:57 PM, MetalSlimeHunt wrote: I am not suggesting that they should stay like that at all. But if a badly out of shape student who cares about their grades dearly, what will they do? The same exact thing Anorixics do: Stop eating and start exersiseing.

Or maybe they will put down the X-box controller and go to the fucking park once and a while. Maybe they won't get a ride to the corner store, maybe they will walk. Maybe they will take up some sport, join their local YMCA etc etc etc. I am fairly certain that the benefits of this idea would drastically outweigh any risks. I highly doubt their will be a rise in eating disorder rates.

Eating disorders are not as simple as you would like to think. They are not based upon I want to get fitter, they are based on body image. People with anorexia want to be skinny, they are not concerned with performance on standardized fitness testing. People with anorexia hide it, the brainy kid who just wants an A is motivated by performance, they won't be secretly puking or chugging laxatives, since their goal is to run faster, they will practice running faster.

The kid wanting an A is goal setting. Do weddings cause an increase in anorexia from brides wanting to fit into their dresses? No, it results in a rise in gym memberships for 6 weeks.

And I don't mean in moderation, that would be good for them. I mean One bottle of water a day and 8+ hours of exersiseing untill they drop from exaustion.

I am well aware of what anorexia is. And you are wrong, they do not exercises 8+ hours a day, some do not exercises at all. The characteristics of Anorexia are excessive obsession with exercise, unrealistic body expectations and purging. Besides, how many 8 year olds have 8 hours to spend working out without anyone noticing either? even a hardcore anorexia case in a high schooler would not result in 8 hours a day. Its not physically possible.

The bar needs to be set at 110% on every individual.

No, because that creates two problems. One, how do you define 110% from each individual? You create minimum standards they have to meet, then you can have a portion of the mark allotted for effort, but if you simply make it 110% of your best there is no clear pass or fail mark given. Everyone can pass as long as they try their best, even if they weigh 500lbs and cant do one push-up.

The All-Star would have to do way more than the obese kids. One size does not fit all. In a system like that, the all-stars would be bored and the out of shape would be stuggleing.

Kind of like every other subject in school? Thats why you make part of the marks based on effort, but alot more to the ability to preform on testing.

Also, 8 yr olds in adult life jackets? How... I didn't think that was metabolicly possible for children that young! What the hell are they eating?

Eating shit and not doing any physical activity. The sad part is there is at least one in nearly every class. I would say of the over 1000 children I will teach this year probably 10% will be big enough for adult life jackets with at least another 25% being above average size.

At 4/16/09 05:45 PM, Ravariel wrote:

At 4/16/09 05:10 PM, JoS wrote: It depends on where you set the bar. Additionally, gym starts at what like grade 1? If we start earlier focusing on fitness there will be less need for remidal work later on.

That is the problem... where DO you set the bar? And how do you determine if the bar's been crossed? Does a kid have to make 5/10 free throws to pass "baskteball"? Does he have to run a mile in 8 minutes? Or should we instead look at progress? And then how do we measure that?

Take basic evaluations of physical fitness and compare students to the scientifically established percentile scores. Make a pass say 40th percentile score or something like that.

Use standard evaluations like say 100 meter sprint or 1 mile run or beep-test, push up scores, sit up tests, flexibility (ie toe reach), vertical jumps, standing long-jump etc etc etc. Do not make them skill based, make these standards things that are actual tests of physical fitness.

At 4/16/09 05:57 PM, MetalSlimeHunt wrote: I am not suggesting that they should stay like that at all. But if a badly out of shape student who cares about their grades dearly, what will they do? The same exact thing Anorixics do: Stop eating and start exersiseing.

Or maybe they will put down the X-box controller and go to the fucking park once and a while. Maybe they won't get a ride to the corner store, maybe they will walk. Maybe they will take up some sport, join their local YMCA etc etc etc. I am fairly certain that the benefits of this idea would drastically outweigh any risks. I highly doubt their will be a rise in eating disorder rates.

Eating disorders are not as simple as you would like to think. They are not based upon I want to get fitter, they are based on body image. People with anorexia want to be skinny, they are not concerned with performance on standardized fitness testing. People with anorexia hide it, the brainy kid who just wants an A is motivated by performance, they won't be secretly puking or chugging laxatives, since their goal is to run faster, they will practice running faster.

The kid wanting an A is goal setting. Do weddings cause an increase in anorexia from brides wanting to fit into their dresses? No, it results in a rise in gym memberships for 6 weeks.

And I don't mean in moderation, that would be good for them. I mean One bottle of water a day and 8+ hours of exersiseing untill they drop from exaustion.

I am well aware of what anorexia is. And you are wrong, they do not exercises 8+ hours a day, some do not exercises at all. The characteristics of Anorexia are excessive obsession with exercise, unrealistic body expectations and purging. Besides, how many 8 year olds have 8 hours to spend working out without anyone noticing either? even a hardcore anorexia case in a high schooler would not result in 8 hours a day. Its not physically possible.

The bar needs to be set at 110% on every individual.

No, because that creates two problems. One, how do you define 110% from each individual? You create minimum standards they have to meet, then you can have a portion of the mark allotted for effort, but if you simply make it 110% of your best there is no clear pass or fail mark given. Everyone can pass as long as they try their best, even if they weigh 500lbs and cant do one push-up.

The All-Star would have to do way more than the obese kids. One size does not fit all. In a system like that, the all-stars would be bored and the out of shape would be stuggleing.

Kind of like every other subject in school? Thats why you make part of the marks based on effort, but alot more to the ability to preform on testing.

Also, 8 yr olds in adult life jackets? How... I didn't think that was metabolicly possible for children that young! What the hell are they eating?

Eating shit and not doing any physical activity. The sad part is there is at least one in nearly every class. I would say of the over 1000 children I will teach this year probably 10% will be big enough for adult life jackets with at least another 25% being above average size.

Gym Class is a complete waste of time. If a kids going to be overweight & unhealthy, shooting hoops in PE won't change that.
The time would be better spent on more math & science, especially for kids who don't need teh exercise.

At 4/16/09 05:57 PM, MetalSlimeHunt wrote: I am not suggesting that they should stay like that at all. But if a badly out of shape student who cares about their grades dearly, what will they do? The same exact thing Anorixics do: Stop eating and start exersiseing.

Really? When I wanted to get in shape, I started exercising and started eating healthier. In fact, I definitely ended up eating more than I used to.

At 4/16/09 07:25 PM, Elfer wrote:

At 4/16/09 05:57 PM, MetalSlimeHunt wrote: I am not suggesting that they should stay like that at all. But if a badly out of shape student who cares about their grades dearly, what will they do? The same exact thing Anorixics do: Stop eating and start exersiseing.

Really? When I wanted to get in shape, I started exercising and started eating healthier. In fact, I definitely ended up eating more than I used to.

You wanted to get in shape, not pass a class that was only a semester long. You can only safely lose about 2 pounds of body fat a week. Not possible in a healthy manner to get down with that before you are doomed to failure.

At 4/16/09 07:30 PM, MetalSlimeHunt wrote: You wanted to get in shape, not pass a class that was only a semester long. You can only safely lose about 2 pounds of body fat a week. Not possible in a healthy manner to get down with that before you are doomed to failure.

A semester in high school is five months long. That is a LOT of time to get into shape. As a rough idea, in that amount of time, I went from being in say, the bottom 20% of physical fitness to the top 10%, easily. It's certainly enough time to build your way up to 20 push-ups or whatever the hell they want you to do.

Abolish all schools and only teach kids karate, art, music, and science.

All hail the Supreme Being.

You dont have all five months. Let's say Subject A is 30 lbs overweight. That is an F every day untill he can get in shape. That means 15 weeks is needed to be at the top of being in shape. 15*5= 75 F's. An A every day for the remainding time could not pull that out of the dirt.

I don't know how grading works in gym class there, but wouldn't it be more reasonable to grade on what a person can accomplish over a semester rather than what's done each week?

You know, grade it like anything else?

If you changed the grading system to anything but grading on showing up and looking like you're participating you would have alot of angry parents to listen to. With execuses like that their overweight child has asthma.
If you don't think overbearing parents have power then consider that Im in high-school and not allowed to play dodgeball.

It shouldent be graded like anything else because it is physical, rather than mental.

At 4/16/09 08:44 PM, MetalSlimeHunt wrote: It shouldent be graded like anything else because it is physical, rather than mental.

So basically, you are demanding it be graded in a way that doesn't make sense, just to support your point?

In math class, do you take the final exam every week, even though you haven't learned most of the material yet? No. Why grade gym with such a hare-brained scheme?

Personally, I didn't like gym class, but I thought the grading scheme worked out pretty well. Week-to-week it was based on participation and effort, but there was also a fitness assessment at the beginning and the end to see how you were actually doing.

At 4/16/09 08:00 PM, MetalSlimeHunt wrote: You dont have all five months. Let's say Subject A is 30 lbs overweight. That is an F every day untill he can get in shape. That means 15 weeks is needed to be at the top of being in shape. 15*5= 75 F's. An A every day for the remainding time could not pull that out of the dirt.

Your logic is very strange. I said change the way its marked so it based more on testing. Your participation, attendance etc makes up a portion of it, but have at the end a fitness test, kind of like a final exam.

Never did I say anything about having to lose weight. Losing weight can help, but I have seen overweight people who can run faster or lift more weight than I can. You can be slightly overweight but still be healthy.

That's pretty much exactly how it's marked here.

Also, is PE mandatory all the way through high school in the states? It's only mandatory for the first year of high school here, after that it's an option. I like it that way, but on the other hand, I also didn't have the room in my schedule to fit PE in after academics, and I can see how that would be a problem for some people.

Despite this, I can do a rope climb. Suckaz.

At 4/14/09 10:30 PM, Dante-Son-Of-Sparda wrote:

At 4/14/09 10:21 PM, SkunkyFluffy wrote:

hahaha sorry I have ethics I don't throw the balls at girls.

my parents taught better than that.

They taught you to have a double-standard based on gender?

At 4/16/09 08:51 AM, Ravariel wrote: I'm about to sound like a total douche and for that I'm sorry.

A) The reason gym focuses on sport instead of calisthenics/general fitness is because sports are fun, calisthenics are not, they're the warm up so you don't hurt yourself during the fun.

I agree with that. Kids generally respond better to games, it makes the time go by faster when you're having fun running around instead of being forced to run. That's one of the reasons why people can often go running for hours playing soccer instead of out and out forcing themselves to run.

2) 4 miles is nothing. Seriously. If you can't make it 4 miles during an hour-long class after "training" for an entire school year, you're not in shape. Period. Anyone should be able to go that far, even if it's at a very slow jog. You don't have to keep up with me and the other cross country/track guys doing 6-minute miles, but even for the least athletic, a 10-14-minute mile is reasonable. I haven't run any farther than across the street in 10 years and last year when I started to train for a half-marathon after doing literally nothing athletic in that time, I made it 4 miles in about 45 minutes.

Some classes aren't an entire school year. My high school's gym class was only for half the year, and worked in modules of two weeks. So, every two weeks you were doing a different activity. Depending on what it was you chose, you could be doing significantly more work than someone in a different class. For some people, being forced to run long distance can be a huge mental block. I played competitive hockey for ten years, but doing the required runs was always a shit time for me because I hated being forced to run. You obviously enjoy running, and have experience in doing so long distance. A long distance runner - even after a long period of time - will have a much easier time finding their stride then someone who does a different activity.

D) The only way someone should be able to opt out of a class is to show complete proficiency in what that class is teaching. For Math, if I can do calculus, I shouldn't be expected to take a remedial algebra class. If I'm the fastest cross country runner in my conference, a star basketball player, and nearing college-level times in the 800, I should be able to opt ("test") out of Gym. That said, why would you opt out of an easy A to pad your GPA?

You may not have to do remedial math, but you still have to take a general math class, don't you? I received awards for English, tested extremely high in reading comprehension and writing analysis, but still had to take English. I think there should be different levels of gym, just like there are different levels of Chemistry or Biology - AP classes and the like.

42) Most games, believe it or not, are not about competition with others. Even apparently adversarial games like basketball. Guess what they're about? Competition with yourself. They're a competition with the sniveling weakling I am hearing a lot from in here so far. Are you so lame you can't even beat the weakest part of yourself?

Try telling that to the other members of your class. It's all well and good to say it's not about the competition, but when you're getting hounded by other team members because you're "not helping" it's awfully hard to believe it. Some kids can be painfully competitive when it comes to even the most basic of sports, and those are the ones that will make it unbearable to be in that class. I understand where you're coming from - I was a jock in school too - but you can't just brush aside the cruelty that people get subjected to in gym sometimes.

I hate PE at school, but I make sure I run a few miles everyday to keep fit. I'm just not a sports person, though.

At 4/19/09 02:36 AM, Eyeguy wrote:

At 4/14/09 10:30 PM, Dante-Son-Of-Sparda wrote:

At 4/14/09 10:21 PM, SkunkyFluffy wrote:

hahaha sorry I have ethics I don't throw the balls at girls.

my parents taught better than that.

They taught you to have a double-standard based on gender?

You're right, there shouldn't be double standards based on gender in athletics because men and women are physically identical.