To anyone who's ever sold a game:

[I-smel]

Just checking- Have you ever given a percentage of your earnings to like the composers of the music you used, or the voice actors or anything?

[Perry]

At 4/8/09 05:46 PM, I-smel wrote: Just checking- Have you ever given a percentage of your earnings to like the composers of the music you used, or the voice actors or anything?

I did not when I had voice actors, if the composers made them specifically for you. Otherwise any thing on the audio portal is free to use.

[Xeptic]

At 4/8/09 05:46 PM, I-smel wrote: Just checking- Have you ever given a percentage of your earnings to like the composers of the music you used, or the voice actors or anything?

I think everyone who has made a noticeable contribution to your game should deserve some sort of payment for that. I had a voice actress for one of my games once and originally we agreed upon the whole thing being a an unpaid thing. But I got more money for the game then I thought I would, and the recording took more time than I had initially planned so I decided on paying her for her services anyway. Most of the time you will be able to find VA who are willing to do the job for free, but if the voice acting is an important aspect of the game (like there are a lot of lines) I think it is only fair to arrange some sort of payment for the work they put into your game.

At 4/8/09 05:51 PM, Perry wrote: I did not when I had voice actors, if the composers made them specifically for you. Otherwise any thing on the audio portal is free to use.

Actually no it is not, not unless you agree with the composer on this, to quote the Audio Portal license: "Noncommercial: You may not use this work for commercial purposes unless you make specific arrangements with the artist under another license."

[Jimp]

I never have, but its something I want to start doing.

I think music and sound is pretty damn important in games, and there are so many good composers here.

When I start Penguinz 2 I wanna get a sound engineer or something. I think having someone from the start to make music and produce all the sound aspects of a game would really make the audio stand out.

One thing I really dont know is how much to give them though... Obviously you want it to be an incentive to make sure its shit hot, but you dont want to give away a huge slice of the sponsorship, especially if youre relying on it as an income.

5%-10%? That could be a pretty nice amount of money for a big game, maybe a set fee would be more appropriate though.

[Shinki]

For SCGMD3 I contacted the music artists to get permission for use in a commercial product, they all agreed. I also found a voice actor to work for free and some friends did heavy testing for free.

Since I had no idea how much money it would earn I didn't offer them anything, but when I found I sent them all some money. They were pleased.

What I'm saying is... people will work for free but it's nice to share your success?

[Noodle]

I think anything that was made specifically for your game deserves some cut.
If you had a custom soundtrack, they definately deserve a cut.

Voice actors gets tricky. For a game like Robot Dinosaurs, I know the roars were made just for you. But those likely took 2 minutes to make. Although they are hilarious and awesome.
I'd say he probably deserves a small amount. Not a huge amount. Like.... 5% ?

[TheSongSalad]

i gave the main artest 50%. the other artest didn't want anything, and the music in the audio portal i'd only give a % if it were made just for my game.

[VirusN]

@ I-Smel:
are you asking because of the dino game? I know Fatkidwitajetpack voiceacts for free, but you should send him some bucks. he made the game awesome with his roarings.

@ Perry:
Xeptic is right. you have to pay to the artists if you get money out of it...

@ Shinki:
YAY!! you're not dead!!!!

[midimachine]

As a musician I'd like to make money for what I do but I don't know if I'd feel comfortable requiring/asking for a share of your sponsorship or anyone else's even.

I think of it this way: Most artists on a major recording label recieve between 6.25 and 8% of sales after the label breaks even, so I'd be well chuffed with, say, 7% of revenue from ads.

Then again maybe it's completely different for games and shit. I dunno.

[Jimp]

At 4/9/09 09:49 AM, midimachine wrote: I think of it this way: Most artists on a major recording label recieve between 6.25 and 8% of sales after the label breaks even, so I'd be well chuffed with, say, 7% of revenue from ads.

Fuck me, thats bullshit!

I think it depends how important the music is to the game and how much is in there etc. If youre just using one or 2 tracks from the audio portal with permission, then its not so much of a big deal. Artists like to see their music in games and its also a great way to get some exposure, I always make sure to credit any music I use.

On the other hand, if someones making something especially for you then damn right you should give them a cut.

[Kurlumbenus]

Generally speaking, when you work with an artist or musician on a project you pay them outright for the right to use the art or music. You pay them whatever is agreed upon flat - regardless of how well the game itself does. And that's it. That's all they get.

The revenue from the game goes to you.

They aren't making the game, they're producing commissioned work for YOUR project. For the artist/musician, it's just like selling music to anyone else.

[Shinki]

At 4/9/09 11:28 AM, Kurlumbenus wrote: Generally speaking, when you work with an artist or musician on a project you pay them outright for the right to use the art or music. You pay them whatever is agreed upon flat - regardless of how well the game itself does. And that's it. That's all they get.

The revenue from the game goes to you.

They aren't making the game, they're producing commissioned work for YOUR project. For the artist/musician, it's just like selling music to anyone else.

I agree with this, small time contributors (assets only) should certainly be paid, but not neccessarily have a stake in the project (success-based further income).

However, if you work with an someone on a very close level where they contribute heavily to the design process then they deserve a full cut in everything down the line.

[K-Guare]

Try to give musicians about 10%;
without music the game wouldn't be nearly as engaging.
They really deserve it. :3

[Kurlumbenus]

At 4/9/09 12:33 PM, Shinki wrote:

At 4/9/09 11:28 AM, Kurlumbenus wrote: Generally speaking, when you work with an artist or musician on a project you pay them outright for the right to use the art or music. You pay them whatever is agreed upon flat - regardless of how well the game itself does. And that's it. That's all they get.

The revenue from the game goes to you.

They aren't making the game, they're producing commissioned work for YOUR project. For the artist/musician, it's just like selling music to anyone else.

I agree with this, small time contributors (assets only) should certainly be paid, but not neccessarily have a stake in the project (success-based further income).

However, if you work with an someone on a very close level where they contribute heavily to the design process then they deserve a full cut in everything down the line.

Well, yes. Someone invested in the design process should be compensated - though really, in a hobbyist field, unless you go into a project as a team, most projects are going to be 'something I did using assets (music and art) I bought from someone else.'

[Josh-B]

Of course, you could always be a big dick and keep all the money to yourself. Your choice.

[Kurlumbenus]

At 4/9/09 12:54 PM, K-Guare wrote: Try to give musicians about 10%;
without music the game wouldn't be nearly as engaging.
They really deserve it. :3

It's far simpler to just buy the music from them. Figuring out split royalties can be a huge pain. I've been involved in a few hobbyist/freelance projects from the art side of things, and I've never wanted, asked for, or been offered a %.

You want me to draw you something? Fine. I spend an hour whipping something up, gimmie $25. I just made $25/hour! Hooray!

[andy70707]

Ive only ever sold one game, and no I didnt give any money to the music artists. Mainly cause I did everything else myself. In my latest game, which is almsot deffinately gonna get sponsored, ive promised at least 30% of the money to my grapics artist, althoghu it might be up to 50% if I get enough money. I wot give any money to the music artists thoguh.

[Nisas]

At 4/9/09 12:54 PM, K-Guare wrote: Try to give musicians about 10%;
without music the game wouldn't be nearly as engaging.
They really deserve it. :3

10% is too much in my opinion. It all depends on the game. Think about it like this.

How long does it take to make one music thing for the audio portal?
How long does it take to script and animate a game?

I'd be willing to bet a good game (something of thing-thing quality or even much less) takes more than 10 times the work than making a song.

If the composer wants to be paid, I'd say a $20 kickback is fair enough. Unless the music was made specifically for the project, in which case it should be percentage based.

[FatKidWitAJetPak]

In my opinion, 10% or 8% is a good solid amount to give to voice actors since the voice really improves the quality of a flash game or movie. I mean, do you know how much a movie sucks without voice? Usually it does, but there always is that rare movie that doesnt need a voice to be good lol. But for comedy, its a whole nother story.

[FatKidWitAJetPak]

At 4/8/09 11:28 PM, VirusN wrote: @ I-Smel:
are you asking because of the dino game? I know Fatkidwitajetpack voiceacts for free, but you should send him some bucks. he made the game awesome with his roarings.

Oh he paid me alright. It was a tough battle and him and i agreed that if we ever did it again we wouldnt split the money since it was so much freaking trouble. But he paid me a solid 10%. THANKS BY THE WAY I-SMEL.

[midimachine]

At 4/9/09 01:16 PM, andy70707 wrote: I wot give any money to the music artists thoguh.

I hope for your sake that they've agreed to let you use their music for free.

:How long does it take to make one music thing for the audio portal?

Well, the track I did which was used in Robot Dinosaurs was completed in 2 days with between 3 and 4 hours work both days on my end. I don't remember how long the guitar parts took for my bud to arrange and record but you could add another 2 or 3 hours to the total easily.

Nothing on my AP page is made from start to finish in under 3 hours, except for "Worst Song". I'm not doubting that even a small-scale commercial flash game takes a lot longer but $20 would be like a slap in the face to me unless it was something I "whipped up in an hour".

[Luis]

At 4/9/09 12:56 PM, Josh-B wrote: Of course, you could always be a big dick and keep all the money to yourself. Your choice.

says the jewish guy.

[Luis]

On a serious note, I usually like custom tracks. I think its important to build a working relationship with your music guy as its an important piece of your game. Alot of people overlook the music/ menus/ and other stuff in a game and sometimes those are the pieces that help make the game so memorable.

I havent tried paying via percentages/royalties yet, I may try it on the next game i do. Usually I/we just pay our music guy a flat rate.

I think its good practice to get in the habit of paying for tracks if you end up using them in a game/for profit. If anything it helps you take that step into becoming more of a professional. Plus youre more likely to get top caliber talent behind your ideas if you setup a reputation for yourself as being a fair person.

[Nisas]

Nothing on my AP page is made from start to finish in under 3 hours, except for "Worst Song". I'm not doubting that even a small-scale commercial flash game takes a lot longer but $20 would be like a slap in the face to me unless it was something I "whipped up in an hour".

I'm working on a game right now and I just spent the last 2 hours rewriting a bunch of code just so I could read it better. I've probably done about 20 hours worth of actual work so far and I'm probably about 30% done. It takes a while.

Unless you make music specifically to make money, I don't see why you're so offended by the $20 thing. You basically made the music to be freely available. A game gives you distribution, credit, and notoriety. So unless you made the piece for the purpose of making money, you're basically getting money and fame for free. Although I would probably go as high as $35 if I really liked the music.

[Deadclever23]

At 4/9/09 06:50 PM, FatKidWitAJetPak wrote: Usually it does, but there always is that rare movie that doesnt need a voice to be good lol.

Lol, I knew you'd link to There She Is.

[midimachine]

At 4/10/09 03:19 AM, Nisas wrote:
I'm working on a game right now and I just spent the last 2 hours rewriting a bunch of code just so I could read it better. I've probably done about 20 hours worth of actual work so far and I'm probably about 30% done. It takes a while.

Unless you make music specifically to make money, I don't see why you're so offended by the $20 thing. You basically made the music to be freely available. A game gives you distribution, credit, and notoriety. So unless you made the piece for the purpose of making money, you're basically getting money and fame for free. Although I would probably go as high as $35 if I really liked the music.

Actually no, I don't make music to be freely available for people to then use commercially and no self-respecting artist should. Does ANYBODY here actually give half a crap about Creative Commons, let alone respect them?

I'll be fair, I see and even kind of agree with your point regarding music that wasn't specifically made for a project. However, I still think It's wrong to assume that, by using artist-x's music in your project, you're just doing them a favour. While being featured in a game helps it's not as if it's impossible for me or anyone else to promote themselves through other means.

I think it's funny that you say that I'd be getting money and fame for free. Time is money, so I'd like to break even at the least ;)

I don't really see where fame comes in either. I mean, Joe Citizen could've been the foley editor for some movie that makes a jillion rupees at the box office but just because he's in the credits somewhere doesn't mean he's suddenly famous. Actually whatever that analogy isn't really valid but it reads pretty well in my head.

Seriously though, most all of you solo game dev dudes are pretty great. There's no way I could do any of that stuff on my own. Most of you guys deserve way more props than you get so I understand the resent at my whole "GOD DAMMIT I'M A STARVING MUSICIAN GIMME SOME DUCKETS" routine.

I'm really tired.

[Kurlumbenus]

That's why you should just sell your music up front. Someone wants to use a piece of yours in a commercial project of theirs? License it to them for a flat, up front rate. Whatever you can agree on.

They want to commission you to make a score specifically for the game their making? Same deal. Don't deal with royalties. You'll seldom get any. Just ask, up front, for a flat fee, and you don't have to wait to see how it does. You're selling you music to the developer; the developer is selling the completed product to the consumers/advertisers. It doesn't trickle down.

Look at a movie. Same thing. The guy playing the flute doesn't get a %, neither does the music director or the composer or the casting agent or the key grip or the foley artist or the set designer. Most of the time, the actors and screenwriter don't, either. They just show up, do the job, collect a flat fee, and go home.

[Paranoia]

At 4/10/09 02:15 AM, Luis wrote: On a serious note, I usually like custom tracks. I think its important to build a working relationship with your music guy as its an important piece of your game. Alot of people overlook the music/ menus/ and other stuff in a game and sometimes those are the pieces that help make the game so memorable.

I don't think I could deal with composers like that... I'm too much of a control freak :p That's why the Audio Portal is so great - you can just go through tonnes of tracks until you find one that fits the feel you're going for. I've not tried commissioning anyone yet, but I'm worried that they'll make something great that doesn't fit the feel of my game at all and I'll be too polite to turn it down.

As far as payment goes, there's a whole mess of conflicting agreements on the audio submissions page and the FAQ. The whole raison d'être for the Audio Portal is to provide Flash artists with royalty free music, and based off of the agreements ticked when people submit audio you're not legally obliged to give them anything, as far as I'm aware.

Morally, however, it's nice to cut them in. The new percentages system is really cool - I've not made any money-making submissions since it came out, but before then I'd generally set 20% aside and split it evenly between all tracks.

Also bear in mind when you're thinking about how much to give - you'll generally be acknowledged fairly well as the author, along with your coder/artist. For audio artists, unless a track really gets to the viewer, they're far less likely to get their websites checked out or their names recognised.

[Shinki]

At 4/10/09 11:21 AM, Paranoia wrote: The whole raison d'être for the Audio Portal is to provide Flash artists with royalty free music, and based off of the agreements ticked when people submit audio you're not legally obliged to give them anything, as far as I'm aware.

A few years ago the Audio Portal starting following Creative Commons licensing. On every song page it tells you what you can and can't use it for.

"Noncommercial: You may not use this work for commercial purposes unless you make specific arrangements with the artist under another license." So if you're making money from the Flash, they need to know about it and agree to let you use it.

I'm not sure if that is a box-tick thing (I've never submitted music) or if it's the case for every song.

[FatKidWitAJetPak]

At 4/10/09 04:13 AM, Deadclever23 wrote:

At 4/9/09 06:50 PM, FatKidWitAJetPak wrote: Usually it does, but there always is that rare movie that doesnt need a voice to be good lol.

Lol, I knew you'd link to There She Is.

Yeah, some of the coolest videos are just backed up with music instead of voices.